Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Don't contextualize it or I will consider you a member of Hamas.
I can not believe you believe the words coming out of your mouth
, are you trolling?No, it is false, Israel rejected a historical chance to get recognised by almost every arab state and end this stupid conflict by refusing to give the Palestinians their state on the borders of 1967 in two proposals, 2002 and 2008.
That's the interpretation? Seems like a reach.
You gotta respect people who lay it out straight.
The Arabs have even conceded the 1967 borders and have just asked for a Palestinian state encompassing Gaza and the West Bank, they don't want to do that either. The Saudi fm just yesterday gave a speech at the wef saying they will recognise Israel even after this as long as a Palestinian state was established.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/saudi...ys-riyadh-interested-in-israel-normalization/
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/wh...s-biden-israeli-pm-netanyahu-mount-rcna134263
"Blinken told Netanyahu that ultimately there is no military solution to Hamas, according to the officials, and that the Israeli leader needs to recognize that or history will repeat itself and violence will continue. But, the officials said, Netanyahu was unmoved".
More briefings to distance the Biden administration from their continuing role in the genocide.
"Blinken told Netanyahu that ultimately there is no military solution to Hamas, according to the officials, and that the Israeli leader needs to recognize that or history will repeat itself and violence will continue. But, the officials said, Netanyahu was unmoved".
More briefings to distance the Biden administration from their continuing role in the genocide.
I think the war set the normalizations with the Saudis 10 steps backwards, and with the rest of the arab states 50 steps backwards, and the only ones to blame is the Israeli right wing government who has been celebrating for more than 2 decades the prevention of a Palestinian state. They should have thought about that, no iron dome nor a high tech fence will give them the peace that both the Israeli people and Palestinian people deserves, the only path to peace is to fecking sit down and talk. The Israeli government have tried to ethnic cleans their way to peace for 75 years, but it did not work, and will not work.
Their path is get rid of the palestinians via killing them and displace them. This will solve their problem. Recognition can com in 20 years (or sooner). Is not their priority.
They simply dont give a fuuuuuuuuuck
It is over. We are seeing with our own eyes unfloding and it will not be stopped bc US wants this and supports it and the UN, and institution born to avoid precisely this, is useless
Is happening and nothing cant be done
It's really baffling that in an election year, the Biden administration's move is "let's look weak and incapable of applying pressure."
Why are you allowed to post your genocide apolagia here?
I agree with you there, I think the Saudis were very close to normalization and Israels response has shocked them and put them in a very precarious situation. Normalization with the Saudis is the most important for the Israelis and once that happens the majority of the other arab states that haven't already normalized will quickly follow. From my understanding, the majority of the population of the Gulf were leaning towards normalization which was in stark contrast to even 5/10 years ago, but now Saudi/The other Arab states will have a tough time selling normalization to their population after this, even with the establishment of a Palestinian state.
ISIS did this sort of thing and the condemnation could be seen everywhere.
Fearless had a different style imo. Fearless wouldn't even bother with the wink wink nudge nudge Giggsy has been doing, they'd be openly revelling in what is going on, posting far more often and aggressively and showing not even a modicum of sympathy for whats going on. Any rebuttal would come with their own rebuttal of a MEMRI video.
Giggsy's approach is more akin to the Meir quote "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children."
This false humanity, this sigh and shrug of the shoulders, the why have you made me do this as you beat someone to death in a bloody pulp. Much more subtle than just screaming I hate you, you deserve this, I wish you were all dead/ gone. While beating someone to death in a bloody pulp.
The side which considers fighting (in various forms) to be the way to reach its objectives. So far, it fails every time. Egypt wanted to make peace, there is peace. Jordan wanted to make peace, there is peace.
The question was about general strategy where you don' have to wage war but negotiate
Someone who doesn't want to annihilate you would be nice. Someone who doesn't want to repeat October 7 again and again.
Good job. I wish I had time for things like that.
Because it is not genocide.
I obviously don't know the intentions but when I first saw that interview, it did seem like a threatening tone. But I could just be reading into it wrong.
So you rather wait for the genocide to be complete before labelling it as such rather than have it stopped before it reaches the numbers needed for it to be a full genocide?
When you take historical perceptive into consideration, we have been here many times. The reply to peace offer was violence. Ehud Barak offered almost everything to Arafat. What was the reply? The second intifada. You cannot blame the Israeli population that they lean more right in the next election.
So...for instance a Fatah who has made no mention of annihilation and who has co-operated with the Israeli government on security matters within the 'self-governing' areas of the West Bank?
Remind me again what Netanyahu has said about the post war Gaza plan? And whats happening in the West Bank now?
Are you capable of ever expanding on anything or is your argument so weak that you have to resort to such simple meaningless statements?
Do you deny the deliberate action of Israel causing tens of thousands of civilian deaths? Or that infrastructure has been virtually razed to the ground?
This is an arguement that pro-Israeli people make all the time (along with the "the population grew, how can it be genocide?"
) and it was one that I always wondered about. Until I looked into the Camp David Accords.Read the details and tell me you think Arafat should have agreed to that. Sure, it's better than what's being offered now (bloodshed) but you think things such as 9 to 1 land swaps and having a road between WB and Gaza, that's controlled by Israel and can be blocked at any moment (just two examples) fair?
An offer where:
-non contingous state, even within the West Bank and not even including all of the land currently understood to be the West Bank, a cantonisation of 'the country'
-lack of sovereignty over East Jerusalem, the place they view to be their capital
-state where the country who, whether you agree with it or not, is framed by the Palestinians as the country that has taken their land , expelled them and subjugated them for decades, has the right to build radar stations, control your airspace indefinitely and station troops at your border indefinitely
-Have control over the water source in its entirety
-Your state is demilitarised
amongst other things, is not almost everything. That is a facade of a state.
You may suggest that the Palestinians have 'lost' and the Israelis have all the power (and backed by the global power). And that therefore the Palestinians should therefore just take whatever they are offered. That at least is an argument, even if I personally disagree.
But this BS about offered almost everything is just that. BS. Please don't peddle it.
It always makes me laugh when peole bring that argument and I automatically stop taking them seriously.This is an arguement that pro-Israeli people make all the time (along with the "the population grew, how can it be genocide?"
Read the details and tell me you think Arafat should have agreed to that. Sure, it's better than what's being offered now (bloodshed) but you think things such as 9 to 1 land swaps and having a road between WB and Gaza, that's controlled by Israel and can be blocked at any moment (just two examples) fair?
I mean, you can find the terms of the Camp David Accord in Wikipedia after a 2 seconds research and anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together and/or not completely delusional would see that this "accord" was a farce. The Palestinians already settled for 22% of their original territories, yet Israel with the complicity of the US still stried to strong-arm them to compromise even more, and maintain the total and absolute control of this so-called palestinian state. And then wonder why Arafat walked.
The worst of it was that the Camp David Accord was binding and would forbid the Palestinians to make any further demands or amendements. Without preventing Israel to do whatever it wanted in the future if they felt like it, because Palestine would've had no army to defend itself or control over its own terrritory. It should be also noted that the PA officially recognized Israel in the Oslo Accord in 1995, whilst the latter, and the western countries for that matter, never reciprocated the gesture. To this day.
But hey, gotta go with "pAlesIniAns dOn'T wAnT pEAcE!" narrative.
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Mate, your government(s), especially this one, never wanted peace with the Palestinians.
The settlements policy and forced expulsions of the Palestinians never ever stopped since 1948. The only Israeli Prime Minister who tried to seriously move in the two states direction got himself killed less than a year later, and Netanyahu was at the front of the Israeli protests against the Oslo Accord. Netanyahu was caught multiple times on tape boasting about preventing the creation of a Palestinian state and hammering that Hamas was his best ally to achieve his goal. I mean, it's written black on white in the first fecking two articles of the Likud Charter:
"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria (the current West Bank) will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan (River) there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
"A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State" (note the quotation marks), jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel and frustrates any prospect of peace."
Eretz Israel from the river to the sea... There goes your "peace", and it seems that the infamous slogan's true origin ain't what it's supposed to be. At least Hamas tried to save the appearances by amending its Charter in 2017, even if it's bollocks. The Likud didn't even bother.
In short, just stop your gaslighting. It's nauseating and no one's buying it.
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Glad to help, wouldn't want you to waste time on something that isn't a Youtube video. It's important work you're doing.
No, of course not. You misrepresent my point. I am not saying it is not genocide YET. I am saying it is not genocide. Period.
For many people here it is incomprehensible but you can the 2 positions at the same time:
1. The human tragedy of civilian population is terrible. And everybody wishes for it to stop as soon as possible.
2. It is not a genocide.
Apart from real combat on the ground the propaganda/information war is going on. There were countless examples recycled even in this thread (like concentration camp, mass executions, automatically blaming Israel for everything - al-Ahli hospital/parking lot, demonizing Israel, US supporting Israel only because zionists pay off senators etc).
You can disagree, have different point of view. But it should not be difficult to understand that is is equally reasonable position to doubt, disbelieve every information coming out of Hamas controlled institutions.
Jesus, your posts are proper nonsense. I can't tell if you're not the brightest or just treading the line of what you really want to say.
Some people apparantly think that a genocide is only when you round people up, put them in camps, and execute them.
I think most people here, with good reason, think that you either don't hold position #1, or "hold it" in a way that isn't at all similar to how others here hold it. It's a very vague phrase, really. What is the 'human tragedy', who is 'everyone', etc.
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Just a baffling example, really. Israel has already bombed every other hospital. Taking a victory lap over one is absurd enough, and that's without taking into account that Israel obviously bombed that one too.
Rabin never intended to give Palestinians a state. He was a moderate on that conflict in contrast to their other prime ministers. His history is still filled with terrible crimes against Palestinians.
Yesterday, I drove from Ramallah to Dura, a village near Hebron to attend the funeral of Ahed, my friend’s baby sister, who had just become a mother. She was shot by an Israeli sniper. A heartbreaking loss.
If I could use Israel’s apartheid roads designated for settlers, it would be an 80-90 minute drive, but it took me 4 hours.
Why?
First, we’re forced to take segregated Palestinian only roads which make it a 2.5 hour drive because of checkpoints.
But these days, it’s even worse as Israel has imposed an even more strict strangulation policy over the West Bank, which means even some of those segregated roads are blocked and there are 10 times as many checkpoints.
Taking this drive outside our village/cities of residence is extremely dangerous for three reasons:
1. *Settler attacks*: Israeli settlers are in rampage mode, and you don’t know when you could get hit by a rock or bullet from one of their raging mobs.
2. *Soldiers at the end of a wrong turn*: There are no signs for what “roads” are currently opened or closed for us, you have to guess or stop to ask locals every few miles. If you make a wrong turn and end up face to face with soldiers, they can shoot you, and claim you attacked them.
3. *Arrests for social media posts*: If you’re stopped at a checkpoint, soldiers these days are taking folks’ phones and checking their WhatsApp’s and telegram and instagram. If you have a message standing in solidarity with Gaza, or anything the Israeli soldiers see as offensive, they’ll beat you to a pulp, and could even arrest you. My friend Diala, a human rights lawyer, was just arrested at one of these checkpoints this evening. We don’t know why, but it likely relates to her work and messages they found on her phone about it.
On my end, driving back at night was a nightmare, mainly because I had a friend in the car and was worried about him.
As we drove back, these historically busy streets were ghostly empty because nobody is taking the risk of driving at night unless necessary.
Every turn I’d take, I’d slow down to a crawl to make sure there was no trigger happy soldier or angry settler ready to pounce.
I got lucky as, although we waited at a checkpoint for an hour, the soldiers got bored and literally opened the checkpoint for all the cars to pass without any security check — proof they’re using these checkpoints arbitrarily as collective punishment.
In Dura, I saw where Ahed was shot.
The soldiers had stormed her village as part of their intimidation tactics in the West Bank to keep people anxious. Ahed ran to her roof to warn her husband to come home. An Israeli sniper shot her in the head.
As I drove home, thinking of Ahed, her heart broken family, the families of my friends in Gaza, all the souls we’ve lost, and how easy my life could be taken for simply driving across my ancestral lands to help my friend in her grief.
It shouldn’t have to be said, but our lives are precious. They’re beautiful. They’re equally worthy of joy and basic dignity.
I’m committed to one day being able to drive across my people’s ancestral land a free man, surrounded by my liberated people.
If Israel’s death machine is haunting us around every corner, we might as well live fighting for a life worth dying for.
If I could use Israel’s apartheid roads designated for settlers, it would be an 80-90 minute drive, but it took me 4 hours.
Why?
First, we’re forced to take segregated Palestinian only roads which make it a 2.5 hour drive because of checkpoints.
But these days, it’s even worse as Israel has imposed an even more strict strangulation policy over the West Bank, which means even some of those segregated roads are blocked and there are 10 times as many checkpoints.
Taking this drive outside our village/cities of residence is extremely dangerous for three reasons:
1. *Settler attacks*: Israeli settlers are in rampage mode, and you don’t know when you could get hit by a rock or bullet from one of their raging mobs.
2. *Soldiers at the end of a wrong turn*: There are no signs for what “roads” are currently opened or closed for us, you have to guess or stop to ask locals every few miles. If you make a wrong turn and end up face to face with soldiers, they can shoot you, and claim you attacked them.
3. *Arrests for social media posts*: If you’re stopped at a checkpoint, soldiers these days are taking folks’ phones and checking their WhatsApp’s and telegram and instagram. If you have a message standing in solidarity with Gaza, or anything the Israeli soldiers see as offensive, they’ll beat you to a pulp, and could even arrest you. My friend Diala, a human rights lawyer, was just arrested at one of these checkpoints this evening. We don’t know why, but it likely relates to her work and messages they found on her phone about it.
On my end, driving back at night was a nightmare, mainly because I had a friend in the car and was worried about him.
As we drove back, these historically busy streets were ghostly empty because nobody is taking the risk of driving at night unless necessary.
Every turn I’d take, I’d slow down to a crawl to make sure there was no trigger happy soldier or angry settler ready to pounce.
I got lucky as, although we waited at a checkpoint for an hour, the soldiers got bored and literally opened the checkpoint for all the cars to pass without any security check — proof they’re using these checkpoints arbitrarily as collective punishment.
In Dura, I saw where Ahed was shot.
The soldiers had stormed her village as part of their intimidation tactics in the West Bank to keep people anxious. Ahed ran to her roof to warn her husband to come home. An Israeli sniper shot her in the head.
As I drove home, thinking of Ahed, her heart broken family, the families of my friends in Gaza, all the souls we’ve lost, and how easy my life could be taken for simply driving across my ancestral lands to help my friend in her grief.
It shouldn’t have to be said, but our lives are precious. They’re beautiful. They’re equally worthy of joy and basic dignity.
I’m committed to one day being able to drive across my people’s ancestral land a free man, surrounded by my liberated people.
If Israel’s death machine is haunting us around every corner, we might as well live fighting for a life worth dying for.