Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[tomaldinho1]

Are they really? If yes, why could Europe only deliver 30% of the pledged ammunition? Why is the frigate "Hessen" that been sent to the red sea to secure water ways from Houthi terrorist attacks already short on ammunition and there are no replacements available. Thus the shop has to return once and is no further use.

I can only speak for Germany. The desolate condition the Bundeswehr is in, has been known since 2018/19.
5 years have passed, nothing has changed.
I'm also wondering were the billions and billions of Euro will come from to buy the necessary weapon systems and ammunition. Even if the money is made available with another "Sondervermögen", (translate to debt) Germany doesn't even have infrastructure and facilities to produce so many weapons and ammunition.

German politicians and the overwhelming majority of it's population (including myself) thought a strong army is a thing of the past, not needed anything and tax money would be spend better on other projects. The few who warned about Putin and Russian aggression were dismissed as war mongers.

My point was all the issues we (by we I mean all the European countries who seem to have been caught cold by this) are now rectifying at least some of the issues.

The ammo issue is the main one NATO need to address through standardisation, someone else was posting about this a while back, when you look at all the different gear needed by the different NATO armies, it's ridiculous. That part needs urgent uniformity. That said France and Germany rank in the top 5 arms exporters, obviously the US is No1, so you have 3 of the top 5 globally in NATO.

 

[Rajma]

I genuinely can’t believe what this clown is spouting after 2 years of Russian brutality, it’s really making me uneasy knowing we have chosen Germany as our strategic defense partner within NATO if this is a prevailing opinion across the political establishment.

 

[frostbite]

Are they really? If yes, why could Europe only deliver 30% of the pledged ammunition? Why is the frigate "Hessen" that been sent to the red sea to secure water ways from Houthi terrorist attacks already short on ammunition and there are no replacements available. Thus the shop has to return once and is no further use.

I can only speak for Germany. The desolate condition the Bundeswehr is in, has been known since 2018/19.
5 years have passed, nothing has changed.
I'm also wondering were the billions and billions of Euro will come from to buy the necessary weapon systems and ammunition. Even if the money is made available with another "Sondervermögen", (translate to debt) Germany doesn't even have infrastructure and facilities to produce so many weapons and ammunition.

German politicians and the overwhelming majority of it's population (including myself) thought a strong army is a thing of the past, not needed anything and tax money would be spend better on other projects. The few who warned about Putin and Russian aggression were dismissed as war mongers.

For years, Germany were paying almost nothing for defense. Actually, they were making money because they were exporting arms. Germany had tremendous budget surpluses, but they did not use them for defense. For defense, Germany could rely on USA and Poland. It is simple, isn't it?

At the same time, the corrupt and bankrupt Greece was spending over 2% of their budget for defense (buying from Germany among else) because there was always the real danger that Turkey will do to Greece what Russia did to Ukraine. Greece has 10 million people, Turkey has 80 million people. And of course NATO will not be involved, since both Turkey and Greece are NATO members. Greece asked many times from Germany for support in this, but Germany has a lot of factories in Turkey and a lot of Turkish voters live in Germany, so Germany never committed to anything. Greece had to spend on defense, there was no other solution.

I can accept all that, it is politics, Germany is trying to make money and they don't care about anyone else. That's normal. That's what everyone who has read history expects from Germany.

But I am still very upset that Germany has been able to sell this behavior to other Europeans as the "HIGH MORALS" stance. The country who has been the worst European country in the past 100 years, who killed more Europeans than anyone else, who absorbed East Germany (one of the worst communist countries) and Stasi and their agents, somehow sold to the other Europeans that now they are the epitome of HIGH MORALS! Well, no, they are not. Unfortunately, a lot of them are the same selfish bastards they have always been. If Trump is elected in the USA, it will be the end of Ukraine, Germany will not lift a finger to help them. And I am really worried that this will give the green light to Turkey against Greece.

 

[B. Munich]

For years, Germany were paying almost nothing for defense.

I think Germany paid between 1,2 and 1,4% of the GDP. Pretty much in line with many other West European allies.
You are right it was way below the pledged 2%. Still.I wouldn't call it almost nothing. It used to be between 40 and 45 billion Euros.

Germany had tremendous budget surpluses, but they did not use them for defense. For defense, Germany could rely on USA and Poland. It is simple, isn't it?

I wouldn't know about that. Germany has a debt break that regulates government spending but I can't remember about tremendous surpluses.
Germany relying on Poland? How this? Or you mean just taking Poland as buffer between us and Russia? The same did the whole West during the cold war except then Germany has been the buffer.

At the same time, the corrupt and bankrupt Greece was spending over 2% of their budget for defense (buying from Germany among else) because there was always the real danger that Turkey will do to Greece what Russia did to Ukraine.

Are you Greek? Don't know what you expect Germany to do. The Greek Turkey tensions exists for for many decades and it's a shame that 2 NATO allies can't resolve their issues. On the other hand it shows how difficult it is to burry long lasting animosities.

I can accept all that, it is politics, Germany is trying to make money and they don't care about anyone else. That's normal. That's what everyone who has read history expects from Germany.

Germany had pretty strict rules about weapon exports and it's not an huge industry. That shows now when it becomes more and more clear it will take many years to ramp up the capabilities to produce enough weapons and especially ammunition.

But I am still very upset that Germany has been able to sell this behavior to other Europeans as the "HIGH MORALS" stance.

You have a point here. I agree that Germany used this argument several times to avoid to take a bigger part in conflicts.
However, since February 24th this is a stance of the past.

If Trump is elected in the USA, it will be the end of Ukraine, Germany will not lift a finger to help them. A

We will see. Germany alone can't support the Ukraine. We are three second highest donor of weapons and funds after the US by a distance. Could it be more? Surely. Unfortunately, Scholz is a procrastinator.

 

[Real Name]

Are you Greek? Don't know what you expect Germany to do. The Greek Turkey tensions exists for for many decades and it's a shame that 2 NATO allies can't resolve their issues. On the other hand it shows how difficult it is to burry long lasting animosities.

I see you're not familiar with his work.

 

[B. Munich]

I see you're not familiar with his work.

With whose work?

 

[VorZakone]

WSJ piece on the "peace deal" back in 2022.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Oh my God, WHAT?!



Tucker is already quite one of the biggest sacks of shit on Earth, but Putin must be quite something of an extremely bad used car salesman if he can't fool the guy.

 

[Simbo]

Oh my God, WHAT?!



Tucker is already quite one of the biggest sacks of shit on Earth, but Putin must be quite something of an extremely bad used car salesman if he can't fool the guy.

For Tucker, he's just trying to get himself back on the map, and its working. Its not like Putin cared about convincing him of anything, that interview was just fuel for certain audiences. These people don't say what they really think.

Still funny Tucker coming out with that though.

 

[stefan92]

For Tucker, he's just trying to get himself back on the map, and its working. Its not like Putin cared about convincing him of anything, that interview was just fuel for certain audiences. These people don't say what they really think.

Still funny Tucker coming out with that though.

Would be really funny if it should emerge that that Interview convinced him that Putin indeed is wrong about what he is doing and changes his views on the conflict. Far too early to call that, but it would be an interesting development.

 

[Simbo]

Would be really funny if it should emerge that that Interview convinced him that Putin indeed is wrong about what he is doing and changes his views on the conflict. Far too early to call that, but it would be an interesting development.

Or they paid him in roubles...

Or the sexy FSB lady they tried setting him up with made fun of his pp.

 

[Simbo]

 

[Real Name]

With whose work?

frostbite.

 

[Real Name]

For Tucker, he's just trying to get himself back on the map, and its working. Its not like Putin cared about convincing him of anything, that interview was just fuel for certain audiences. These people don't say what they really think.

Still funny Tucker coming out with that though.

He just realized he was Putin's useful idiot.

 

[jackal&hyde]

The Israel thing is huge. There are enormous numbers of weapons that can now go to Ukraine (just as an example, Romania alone has thousands of advanced anti tank missiles that could not be donated because they are made in Israel and did not have the go ahead). That plus the Israel military industry can receive orders to make systems. One of the biggest issues for Europe is not about money but production capacity, adding the Israel military complex to the production chain is superb news.

 

[B. Munich]

frostbite.

No I don't. No idea who @frostbite is in real life.

 

[4bars]

For Tucker, he's just trying to get himself back on the map, and its working. Its not like Putin cared about convincing him of anything, that interview was just fuel for certain audiences. These people don't say what they really think.

Still funny Tucker coming out with that though.

I think they told him that he was flying to close to the sun of treason and he decided to push himself apart. The deed had been done and he had the benefit of it. Now he can push any other narrative that he wants

 

[maniak]

No I don't. No idea who @frostbite is in real life.

He voices in a very extreme way what a lot of people in southern europe think. That southern european countries were massacred by unnecessary austerity to save big financial institutions, many of them german. A lot of the poverty created at the time persists to this day and most economists now recognize those austerity measures as a gigantic mistake. Those in greece, portugal and spain saying this at the time were called radicals.

Something I realize when talking to germans or dutch is that they are generally completely unaware of how disastrous the policies their governments imposed on others were and so they fail to understand this grievance.

Sorry for the off topic.

 

[HTG]

He voices in a very extreme way what a lot of people in southern europe think. That southern european countries were massacred by unnecessary austerity to save big financial institutions, many of them german. A lot of the poverty created at the time persists to this day and most economists now recognize those austerity measures as a gigantic mistake. Those in greece, portugal and spain saying this at the time were called radicals.

Something I realize when talking to germans or dutch is that they are generally completely unaware of how disastrous the policies their governments imposed on others were and so they fail to understand this grievance.

Sorry for the off topic.

They really are clueless for the most part. Many people here actually believe we saved Greece, Spain etc.
But it's obviously a stupid reason for hostility towards a person who hasn't implicated to condone these policies.

 

[maniak]

They really are clueless for the most part. Many people here actually believe we saved Greece, Spain etc.
But it's obviously a stupid reason for hostility towards a person who hasn't implicated to condone these policies.

Sure, I agree.

 

[B. Munich]

He voices in a very extreme way what a lot of people in southern europe think. That southern european countries were massacred by unnecessary austerity to save big financial institutions, many of them german. A lot of the poverty created at the time persists to this day and most economists now recognize those austerity measures as a gigantic mistake. Those in greece, portugal and spain saying this at the time were called radicals.

Something I realize when talking to germans or dutch is that they are generally completely unaware of how disastrous the policies their governments imposed on others were and so they fail to understand this grievance.

Sorry for the off topic.

Ok I got your point. However, in his reply @frostbite never mentioned this but rather accused Germany of not spending enough for the military but making fortunes in selling weapons to other nations.

To solely blame Germany or other Northern European States is as wrong as putting all the blame to the southern, Mediterranean countries. The Euro was meant to unify Europe but die to it's many flaws achieved the opposite by causing mistrust and animosities between the different countries. A common currency like the Euro can only work after all participating countries are politically or at least fiscally unified. A single currency but 20 different fiscal policies is asking for disasters.

Anyway the topic you mentioned is definitely off topic and so complex that it would need it's own threat.

 

[maniak]

Ok I got your point. However, in his reply @frostbite never mentioned this but rather accused Germany of not spending enough for the military but making fortunes in selling weapons to other nations.

To solely blame Germany or other Northern European States is as wrong as putting all the blame to the southern, Mediterranean countries. The Euro was meant to unify Europe but die to it's many flaws achieved the opposite by causing mistrust and animosities between the different countries. A common currency like the Euro can only work after all participating countries are politically or at least fiscally unified. A single currency but 20 different fiscal policies is asking for disasters.

Anyway the topic you mentioned is definitely off topic and so complex that it would need it's own threat.

For sure, I was just mentioning the origin story of his beef with germany.

 

[frostbite]

Ok I got your point. However, in his reply @frostbite never mentioned this but rather accused Germany of not spending enough for the military but making fortunes in selling weapons to other nations.

To solely blame Germany or other Northern European States is as wrong as putting all the blame to the southern, Mediterranean countries. The Euro was meant to unify Europe but die to it's many flaws achieved the opposite by causing mistrust and animosities between the different countries. A common currency like the Euro can only work after all participating countries are politically or at least fiscally unified. A single currency but 20 different fiscal policies is asking for disasters.

Anyway the topic you mentioned is definitely off topic and so complex that it would need it's own threat.

Look, Germany has done the worst crimes in Europe, ever. Not USA, not France, not UK, it was Germany who did the killing in Europe. To redeem itself, doing nothing, or doing very little, or doing whatever everyone else is doing, doesn't cut it. To redeem itself, Germany should do something huge, something really positive, like solving a huge problem someone else has, like really help Ukraine win against Russia. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, Germany alone should help Ukraine win, without USA, without UK, without France, without Poland. Germany is the leader of Europe today, they should feel responsible and try to solve the problem. Alone if need to be. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, they don't have the same responsibilities, they don't have the same HISTORY behind them. Germany is not in the same position as anyone else.

Merkel was the leader of Germany for 16 years, she refused to accept Ukraine in NATO and EU, she called Ukraine corrupt. Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine but Merkel did not go around calling Putin's Russia corrupt, she had no problem doing business with Putin, while Putin was killing the opposition. This should be an extra motivation for Germany to go out of their way and SOLVE the Ukraine problem. But for me, the WW2 massacres should be enough motivation for Germans to solve a European problem. Alone. Like really solve it. Not just wait and see what someone else will do.

 

[VorZakone]

Look, Germany has done the worst crimes in Europe, ever. Not USA, not France, not UK, it was Germany who did the killing in Europe. To redeem itself, doing nothing, or doing very little, or doing whatever everyone else is doing, doesn't cut it. To redeem itself, Germany should do something huge, something really positive, like solving a huge problem someone else has, like really help Ukraine win against Russia. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, Germany alone should help Ukraine win, without USA, without UK, without France, without Poland. Germany is the leader of Europe today, they should feel responsible and try to solve the problem. Alone if need to be. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, they don't have the same responsibilities, they don't have the same HISTORY behind them. Germany is not in the same position as anyone else.

Merkel was the leader of Germany for 16 years, she refused to accept Ukraine in NATO and EU, she called Ukraine corrupt. Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine but Merkel did not go around calling Putin's Russia corrupt, she had no problem doing business with Putin, while Putin was killing the opposition. This should be an extra motivation for Germany to go out of their way and SOLVE the Ukraine problem. But for me, the WW2 massacres should be enough motivation for Germans to solve a European problem. Alone. Like really solve it. Not just wait and see what someone else will do.

This is a great way to alienate Germans. This kind of rhetoric doesn't help anyone (in my opinion anyway).

 

[frostbite]

I really cannot understand Germans. You see Putin invading Ukraine for no other good reason than Russia being much stronger than Ukraine. Doesn't it remind you of Hitler invading Poland? It is exactly the same situation!

Doesn't anyone in Germany think: " We did the same shit in 1939. Now we are going to solve this shit in 2024. Like the Americans got rid of Hitler in WW2, we'll get rid of Putin. We have the responsibility to be on the right side of history for once. We are the richest and the strongest country in Europe, this war is happening in Europe, we are going to solve it. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, we have the responsibility to do the right thing, because we have done the same shit ourselves in the past. It's time to redeem ourselves. "

 

[frostbite]

This is a great way to alienate Germans. This kind of rhetoric doesn't help anyone (in my opinion anyway).

I am just an anonymous guy on the internet. The Germans will not change anything because I wrote something. They should think about these issues and do the right thing on their own. It doesn't matter what I or you or anyone else is posting on redcafe.

 

[B. Munich]

Look, Germany has done the worst crimes in Europe, ever. Not USA, not France, not UK, it was Germany who did the killing in Europe. To redeem itself, doing nothing, or doing very little, or doing whatever everyone else is doing, doesn't cut it.

I think all European powers have to care their share of crimes. You can't only take WW2 and forget about the atrocities committed in the colonies. Belgien alone killed over 10 million in Kongo.....

To redeem itself, Germany should do something huge, something really positive, like solving a huge problem someone else has, like really help Ukraine win against Russia. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, Germany alone should help Ukraine win, without USA, without UK, without France, without Poland. Germany is the leader of Europe today, they should feel responsible and try to solve the problem.

You can't be serious. Germany doesn't have any nuclear weapons. The Bundeswehr has been run down for 30 years. It can't even be called an army. Ammunition doesn't last for a day.
All federal governments since 1990 thought there is no more thread in Europe after the fall of the iron curtain. Thus a strong military isn't needed anymore. Throwing just money on the Russian soldiers won't kill any of them. If it were that easy, I'm sure the West would have done it already.
By the way Germany is already the second highest donor after the US by a distance but I'm sure you know that.

Merkel was the leader of Germany for 16 years, she refused to accept Ukraine in NATO and EU, she called Ukraine corrupt.

Merkel wasn't alone, it was Merkel and Sarkozy who were against Ukraine joining NATO. I'm with you that this was an huge mistake in hindsight.

To become a member of the EU, countries have to fulfill certain conditions and the Ukraine didn't say the time.

Merkel did not go around calling Putin's Russia corrupt, she had no problem doing business with Putin, while Putin was killing the opposition. This should be an extra motivation for Germany to go out of their way and SOLVE the Ukraine problem.

I agree the "change through trade" policy was an immense failure (in hindsight) but Germany paid dearly for this political mistake. Our economy is in tatters and many industries aren't competitive anymore due to 4 to 5 times higher energy costs than the competition in the US or China. Deindustrialization is happening.

The whole West isn't able to solve the Ukraine problem and you suggest Germany is doing it now alone? Would love to hear your ideas how Germany could achieve it.

The big problem is that the whole sanction package doesn't work, if 2/3 of the world doesn't partake. The harsh reality is that the West stands pretty alone.

 

[Red in STL]

Look, Germany has done the worst crimes in Europe, ever. Not USA, not France, not UK, it was Germany who did the killing in Europe. To redeem itself, doing nothing, or doing very little, or doing whatever everyone else is doing, doesn't cut it. To redeem itself, Germany should do something huge, something really positive, like solving a huge problem someone else has, like really help Ukraine win against Russia. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, Germany alone should help Ukraine win, without USA, without UK, without France, without Poland. Germany is the leader of Europe today, they should feel responsible and try to solve the problem. Alone if need to be. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, they don't have the same responsibilities, they don't have the same HISTORY behind them. Germany is not in the same position as anyone else.

Merkel was the leader of Germany for 16 years, she refused to accept Ukraine in NATO and EU, she called Ukraine corrupt. Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine but Merkel did not go around calling Putin's Russia corrupt, she had no problem doing business with Putin, while Putin was killing the opposition. This should be an extra motivation for Germany to go out of their way and SOLVE the Ukraine problem. But for me, the WW2 massacres should be enough motivation for Germans to solve a European problem. Alone. Like really solve it. Not just wait and see what someone else will do.

You really don't like Germans do you!

Are historical acts only relevant if it was the 20th or 21st century because some of the countries you named are responsible for lots killing in Europe and elsewhere

Do you seriously think that Germany alone could resolve this, if you really think that then IMO you are beyond naive.

 

[B. Munich]

We did the same shit in 1939. Now we are going to solve this shit in 2024. Like the Americans got rid of Hitler in WW2, we'll get rid of Putin

Because Germany is no position to do so.
Give us the army of 1939 and take the nukes away from Russia and you might have a point.
But just demanding Germany to go to war with Russia is just naive and suicidal.

 

[4bars]

Look, Germany has done the worst crimes in Europe, ever. Not USA, not France, not UK, it was Germany who did the killing in Europe. To redeem itself, doing nothing, or doing very little, or doing whatever everyone else is doing, doesn't cut it. To redeem itself, Germany should do something huge, something really positive, like solving a huge problem someone else has, like really help Ukraine win against Russia. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, Germany alone should help Ukraine win, without USA, without UK, without France, without Poland. Germany is the leader of Europe today, they should feel responsible and try to solve the problem. Alone if need to be. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, they don't have the same responsibilities, they don't have the same HISTORY behind them. Germany is not in the same position as anyone else.

Merkel was the leader of Germany for 16 years, she refused to accept Ukraine in NATO and EU, she called Ukraine corrupt. Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine but Merkel did not go around calling Putin's Russia corrupt, she had no problem doing business with Putin, while Putin was killing the opposition. This should be an extra motivation for Germany to go out of their way and SOLVE the Ukraine problem. But for me, the WW2 massacres should be enough motivation for Germans to solve a European problem. Alone. Like really solve it. Not just wait and see what someone else will do.

What a bunch of crap.

Spain plundered Latinamerica, phillipines and others for centuries. Britain did the same, so Belgium, netherlands and france, so Rome and many other regions and countries. They had its own share of raping, mass killing and stealing.

Greece? one of the WORSE in history.

Having new generations of germans that have nothing to do with WWII accountable of its history is beyond stupid.

 

[maniak]

What a bunch of crap.

Spain plundered Latinamerica, phillipines and others for centuries. Britain did the same, so Belgium, netherlands and france, so Rome and many other regions and countries. They had its own share of raping, mass killing and stealing.

Greece? one of the WORSE in history.

Having new generations of germans that have nothing to do with WWII accountable of its history is beyond stupid.

I'm offended you left portugal out. We came up with the atlantic slave trade, we deserve some credit.

 

[4bars]

I'm offended you left portugal out. We came up with the atlantic slave trade, we deserve some credit.

Portugal is spain-lite, even colonizing.

 

[maniak]

Portugal is spain-lite, even colonizing.

 

[Red in STL]

Portugal is spain-lite, even colonizing.

I suspect the people of Goa and Brazil amonst others might disagree

 

[4bars]

I suspect the people of Goa a nd Brazil amonst others might disagree

Don't worry. I am sure that brazilians spoke extensively with their colleagues from Argentina, Chile, paraguai, Peru, Bolivia, colombia, ecuador, venezuela, panama, costa rica, nicaragua, honduras, el salvador, guatemala mexico, cuba, dominican republic and others. Goa...maybe with phillipines.

The Spain-lite is just a joke due to size. Portugal fecked up a lot of regions. Including mozambique, Angola and a few more in africa. And for the size of the country did a lot of harm, like belgium and netherlands.

The joke is that portugal shares the iberian peninsule with spain, and culturaly speaking we are decently. But they are smaller in size and they colonized less than Spain

And now that I explain the joke, is not funny anymore. but as you said, was never funny for the colonies

 

[Red in STL]

Don't worry. I am sure that brazilians spoke extensively with their colleagues from Argentina, Chile, paraguai, Peru, Bolivia, colombia, ecuador, venezuela, panama, costa rica, nicaragua, honduras, el salvador, guatemala mexico, cuba, dominican republic and others. Goa...maybe with phillipines.

The Spain-lite is just a joke due to size. Portugal fecked up a lot of regions. Including mozambique, Angola and a few more in africa. And for the size of the country did a lot of harm, like belgium and netherlands.

The joke is that portugal shares the iberian peninsule with spain, and culturaly speaking we are decently. But they are smaller in size and they colonized less than Spain

And now that I explain the joke, is not funny anymore. but as you said, was never funny for the colonies

Yeah I know, I'm a Brit so every one is 'lite' compared to us!

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Raoul]

A strange audio given that it doesn't really benefit the Russian side to publish something so obvious - that Ukraine is getting weapons from NATO countries that could destroy Russian targets.

 

[VorZakone]

A strange audio given that it doesn't really benefit the Russian side to publish something so obvious - that Ukraine is getting weapons from NATO countries that could destroy Russian targets.

I guess the real story here is German generals using an unsecured line, according to Der Spiegel.

 

[Raoul]

I guess the real story here is German generals using an unsecured line, according to Der Spiegel.

Ahh ok. Makes sense. The Generals will no doubt have to deal with the blowback of talking about sensitive topics on an unsecure line.