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Giggsyking said:
You said, Israel, really thought funneling money to Hamas will give them protection. When in reality this was not Netanyahus objective, he has done it to increase rift between the Palestinians to prevent the possibility of a two state solution. The two are not connected.
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I clearly stated in recent weeks and days that Netanyahu's main objective in strengthening Hamas (not necessarily through Qatari money, but overall) was to increase that rift. So whether that money served another purpose at the same time does not contradict that at all.
 
Amir said:
I clearly stated in recent weeks and days that Netanyahu's main objective in strengthening Hamas (not necessarily through Qatari money, but overall) was to increase that rift. So whether that money served another purpose at the same time does not contradict that at all.
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Amir said:
It obviously was a tactic, but I think that the people who were interested in that part were the policitians, starting with Netanyahu.

The average Israeli didn't care the about the tactic, if he even knew or understood it. He was focused on the result - if it gives him peace and quiet, fine, whatever.

That's part of the tragedy, really. The Palestenian problem stopped being an issue for most Israelis as they just assumed the govenment had it sorted, in its own twisted way.
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Unless you want to say that that the average Israeli did not care about how cruel the tactic is even if it means the results was to backfire on Israelis. Because the goal was never about peace and quite, it was always about stopping the two state solution. Now tell me, how is stopping the very thing Palestinians are fighting for was going to give Israelis peace and quite? Your statements are contradictory.

As the video above, Ehud Barak said Netanyahu said it in public, it was not a concealed goal for Netanyahu trying to deceive the public.
 
Giggsyking said:
Unless you want to say that that the average Israeli did not care about how cruel the tactic is even if it means the results was to backfire on Israelis. Because the goal was never about peace and quite, it was always about stopping the two state solution. Now tell me, how is stopping the very thing Palestinians are fighting for was going to give Israelis peace and quite? Your statements are contradictory.

As the video above, Ehud Barak said Netanyahu said it in public, it was not a concealed goal for Netanyahu trying to deceive the public.
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Did you read the first paragraph of that 2nd quote? I'm a bit confused about where you think thr discrepancy between the posts are?
 
Giggsyking said:
Unless you want to say that that the average Israeli did not care about how cruel the tactic is even if it means the results was to backfire on Israelis. Because the goal was never about peace and quite, it was always about stopping the two state solution. Now tell me, how is stopping the very thing Palestinians are fighting for was going to give Israelis peace and quite? Your statements are contradictory.
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The average Israeli has not been overly interested in what's happening in Gaza. Netanyahu's intentions were well known, but also, Israeli security agencies tended to claim over the years that giving Gaza incentives - such as money, work permits, etc - will keep them away from terror as they'll have something to lose.

Obviously, I don't meen peace and quiet in is utopian sense, but simply life without terror and rocket fire.
 
Dumbstar said:
As Israel surpasses their own pits of depravity, they make their plans with their allies and of course the Devil. God also makes His plans. And God is the best of planners. Evil will not win IA.

The fate of the Palestinians is written. It's what we are doing right now that counts. It literally is time to take sides. The Devil or God. Sorry atheists, you can skip this post. You probably already have.

Just wanted to say I forgot, rest in power Aaron Bushnell. Who? Exactly. Also, the rapper Lil Jon has taken the Shahada and become a Muslim.
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This post is fecking insane. Thank feck Lil' Jon is fighting the Devil, though. The Palestinian oppressed will be delighted, I'm sure.
 
Dumbstar said:
As Israel surpasses their own pits of depravity, they make their plans with their allies and of course the Devil. God also makes His plans. And God is the best of planners. Evil will not win IA.

The fate of the Palestinians is written. It's what we are doing right now that counts. It literally is time to take sides. The Devil or God. Sorry atheists, you can skip this post. You probably already have.

Just wanted to say I forgot, rest in power Aaron Bushnell. Who? Exactly. Also, the rapper Lil Jon has taken the Shahada and become a Muslim.
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Time to take a break from this thread, mate.
 
africanspur said:
Did you read the first paragraph of that 2nd quote? I'm a bit confused about where you think thr discrepancy between the posts are?
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Yes, and its not logical at all, if Netanyahu himself said to them, I am funneling money to Hamas not to have peace but to cause a rift that will prevent a two state solution, how do the public understand it as it will make them feel safe? I am not buying this explanation. In fact the average Israeli knew very well what are they getting and voting in an extrem right wing government is a very good indicator of that.
 
Amir said:
The average Israeli has not been overly interested in what's happening in Gaza. Netanyahu's intentions were well known, but also, Israeli security agencies tended to claim over the years that giving Gaza incentives - such as money, work permits, etc - will keep them away from terror as they'll have something to lose.

Obviously, I don't meen peace and quiet in is utopian sense, but simply life without terror and rocket fire.
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I get your reasoning but it's not quite convincing, how did anyone think that the Palestinians will stay quite for ever? you cant subjugate a group of people for eternity and maintain status quo by giving them some bread crumbs and do not expect them to blow up at some time, it's human nature.
 
Giggsyking said:
Yes, and its not logical at all, if Netanyahu himself said to them, I am funneling money to Hamas not to have peace but to cause a rift that will prevent a two state solution, how do the public understand it as it will make them feel safe? I am not buying this explanation. In fact the average Israeli knew very well what are they getting and voting in an extrem right wing government is a very good indicator of that.
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Because there's this perception,both on here and in some of the pro Palestine stuff that I've done in the past, that uniquely among countries, the Israeli public must be supremely involved in politics, in a way that it doesn't in other countries.

Not everyone there is analysing every single political thing that happens. Not everyone is engaged in politics and current events outside of election time. And Netanyahu has staked his political career on being Mr security.

Because you're coming at it from an angle where a two state solution would guarantee peace. Many Israelis believe the opposite and therefore vote in such a way. It's not illogical therefore (from that perspective) to vote in policies to prevent that, as their perception is not the same as yours.

There have been far fewer bombings for example since building the west bank wall. Which I personally think is an abhorrent act....but from an Israeli perspective, not so.

That last soldier in that video you posted summarised it perfectly though. If your security policy is based purely on force,you need to be winning 24/7. Otherwise it explodes in your face.
 
africanspur said:
Because there's this perception,both on here and in some of the pro Palestine stuff that I've done in the past, that uniquely among countries, the Israeli public must be supremely involved in politics, in a way that it doesn't in other countries.

Not everyone there is analysing every single political thing that happens. Not everyone is engaged in politics and current events outside of election time. And Netanyahu has staked his political career on being Mr security.

Because you're coming at it from an angle where a two state solution would guarantee peace. Many Israelis believe the opposite and therefore vote in such a way. It's not illogical therefore (from that perspective) to vote in policies to prevent that, as their perception is not the same as yours.

There have been far fewer bombings for example since building the west bank wall. Which I personally think is an abhorrent act....but from an Israeli perspective, not so.

That last soldier in that video you posted summarised it perfectly though. If your security policy is based purely on force,you need to be winning 24/7. Otherwise it explodes in your face.
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That is what I was all referring to, it's not the first time that security built purely on force fail at some point specially in this case, and that's everything I wanted to say.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I've not read everything Chomsky has produced - who could? - but I've read enough that I find it very hard to believe that he is antisemitic for a whole variety of reasons. Can you provide any actual quotes, in context, that support this claim?
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Chomsky wrote it as a reply to Abe Rosenthal's article on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the signing of the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty. While you can find it cited in other works as well I guess the best would be to look at the original source. Here you go: Noam Chomsky, “The Middle East Lie”, Lies of Our Times, January, 1990.

When I said there is much more to it, here you have another quote:

“It might conceivably be the case that Jews have a genetically determined tendency toward usury and domination”. (Noam Chomsky, “The Fallacy of Richard Herrnstein's IQ,” Social Policy, May/June 1972.)

Do you still need more evidence?
 
Giggsyking said:
I get your reasoning but it's not quite convincing, how did anyone think that the Palestinians will stay quite for ever? you cant subjugate a group of people for eternity and maintain status quo by giving them some bread crumbs and do not expect them to blow up at some time, it's human nature.
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Isn't it also human nature to try and sweep things under the rug? Avoid major issues, until they hit you in the face and you can no longer ignore them? That's certainly Netanyahu's method: Don't decide anything unless you have to.

Israel as a society has been dealing with other issues in recent years, especially since Netanyahu's legal trouble began around 2016, his refusal to leave, the FIVE rounds of election we had in the space of three and a half years between 2019 and 2022. Add Covid in the middle, and the Palestenian problem became something that's almost in the background.
 
Giggsyking said:
Yes, and its not logical at all, if Netanyahu himself said to them, I am funneling money to Hamas not to have peace but to cause a rift that will prevent a two state solution, how do the public understand it as it will make them feel safe? I am not buying this explanation. In fact the average Israeli knew very well what are they getting and voting in an extrem right wing government is a very good indicator of that.
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In all honesty, I don't remember Netanyahu saying it, or the whole thing having much traction. Most of the coverage of Gaza in recent years has mostly dealt with the issues such as terror and rocket fire, and what's needed to prevent that.

As for the govenment, Israel had four rounds of election between April 2019 and May 2021. None of which gave the extreme right the votes to form a govenment. That only happened in the fifth round of election, by a very small margin, after a wave of terror started during the previous govenment, not led by Nenayahu.

I know that it might seem absurd to someone who isn't living here, because the world normally hears of Israel in connection to the Palestenians, but there's a whole lot of other stuff going around here...
 
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Dumbstar said:
As Israel surpasses their own pits of depravity, they make their plans with their allies and of course the Devil. God also makes His plans. And God is the best of planners. Evil will not win IA.

The fate of the Palestinians is written. It's what we are doing right now that counts. It literally is time to take sides. The Devil or God. Sorry atheists, you can skip this post. You probably already have.
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Sorry, you might have to help me out as I'm a little confused here.

God is the best of planners? So did he plan all of this? Or was he on a tea break and the Devil slid in and orchestrated it all?
 


I’ve heard it from a few sources that the reason this ban tik tok bill is being pushed is because of the pro-Israel lobby. They’re realising that the generation that use tik tok are against Israel.
 
The Corinthian said:


I’ve heard it from a few sources that the reason this ban tik tok bill is being pushed is because of the pro-Israel lobby. They’re realising that the generation that use tik tok are against Israel.
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Highly unlikely given that its been in the works for four years since Trump proposed it in 2020. And even if one were a conspiracy theorist suggesting it was because of post 10.7 activities, that wouldn't make sense either given that social media hasn't made any substantive difference to the conflict since it hasn't caused Israel, Hamas, or the US to change their behavior. And even if Tik Tok were banned in the US, it wouldn't have much of an effect on users since they could easily jump to any combination of other platforms from FB to X to IG to Telegram and beyond.
 
Raoul said:
Highly unlikely given that its been in the works for four years since Trump proposed it in 2020. And even if one were a conspiracy theorist suggesting it was because of post 10.7 activities, that wouldn't make sense either given that social media hasn't made any substantive difference to the conflict since it hasn't caused Israel, Hamas, or the US to change their behavior. And even if Tik Tok were banned in the US, it wouldn't have much of an effect on users since they could easily jump to any combination of other platforms from FB to X to IG to Telegram and beyond.
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Not now, but later on it will be a problem. They know the effect it has on young people as the younger generations are not buying what the biased agenda driven old media is selling and turning to social media for information, it's pretty obvious in the polling in the US that the young are more Pro Palestine than Israel with a big margin.
 
Raoul said:
Highly unlikely given that its been in the works for four years since Trump proposed it in 2020. And even if one were a conspiracy theorist suggesting it was because of post 10.7 activities, that wouldn't make sense either given that social media hasn't made any substantive difference to the conflict since it hasn't caused Israel, Hamas, or the US to change their behavior. And even if Tik Tok were banned in the US, it wouldn't have much of an effect on users since they could easily jump to any combination of other platforms from FB to X to IG to Telegram and beyond.
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It’s not a conspiracy theory to say that the pro-Apartheid (nowadays pro-Genocide) lobby has a TikTok problem. They have said so themselves. Of course, TikTok will not influence the behavior of the politicians… but it is influencing how Gen Z is informed about the events and it’s laying bare the political establishment’s hypocrisy. It is better for the establishment to facilitate the transfer of TikTok ownership to friendly investors, only that way can they make sure Tiktok follows the same self-censorship rules as META and other prominent western SM networks and MSM generally…
 
The Wall Street Journal reported on the impact of Israel-Gaza war on the TikTok bill, in an article titled Why the New Effort to Ban TikTok Caught Fire With Lawmakers:

Wall Street Journal said:
Gallagher of Wisconsin and Democrat Raja Krishnamoorthi of Illinois, the top members of the House panel focused on China, have been working for months on the bill, with the White House.
[...]
Gallagher is well-liked by Democrats and his GOP colleagues and respected as an expert on the issue. His efforts appeared to stall in 2023, but were revived in part by the fallout from the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel, according to people close to TikTok and people close to lawmakers. TikTok’s users quickly inundated the platform with videos about the attack and Israel’s war on Gaza. Some lawmakers said TikTok appeared to favor pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel content, and renewed calls to ban the app in the U.S.
[...]
“Oct. 7 really opened people’s eyes to what’s happening on TikTok” and its “differential treatment of different topics,” said Krishnamoorthi, adding that the coming election also fueled concerns. “People are concerned about interference using TikTok.”
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Could be true, could be false, but that's what elected officials are telling the press.
 
Raoul said:
Highly unlikely given that its been in the works for four years since Trump proposed it in 2020. And even if one were a conspiracy theorist suggesting it was because of post 10.7 activities, that wouldn't make sense either given that social media hasn't made any substantive difference to the conflict since it hasn't caused Israel, Hamas, or the US to change their behavior. And even if Tik Tok were banned in the US, it wouldn't have much of an effect on users since they could easily jump to any combination of other platforms from FB to X to IG to Telegram and beyond.
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I mean, there's substance to it and it's definitely not a conspiracy theory considering most news organisations have mentioned Steve Mnuchin is putting together a group of investors to buy it (and he's tried to include the ex-director of Mossad as well). There's also this leaked recording of the ADL director Jonathan Greenblatt moaning about how the generation who use Tik Tok are pro-Palestinian TikTok US: pro-Israel lobbyist's leaked call sheds light on 'ban' (thecanary.co)

The additional point you're missing is that social media may not have a direct influence on the situation, but it has an indirect influence - and we may see that in years to come. The court of public opinion holds some weight, why else do you think Israel lies whenever they commit an atrocity, then admits it when the news cycle has moved on? Why is Biden saying in public that he's pressuring Israel?

Lastly, the Meta social media platforms (FB, IG) and even X have all been criticised now and in the past for silencing Palestinian voices. Shaun King who was a big advocate of Palestine has been banned on Meta and still hasn't come back, so Tik Tok provides a censorship free avenue to amplify Palestinian voices.

Edit: And lastly - Trump proposed in 2020 due to Chinese interference. Why is it being pushed through now? What's materially changed? Has Chinese interference increased?
 






Whole thread is worth reading.
 
Giggsy PO said:
Chomsky wrote it as a reply to Abe Rosenthal's article on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the signing of the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty. While you can find it cited in other works as well I guess the best would be to look at the original source. Here you go: Noam Chomsky, “The Middle East Lie”, Lies of Our Times, January, 1990.

When I said there is much more to it, here you have another quote:

“It might conceivably be the case that Jews have a genetically determined tendency toward usury and domination”. (Noam Chomsky, “The Fallacy of Richard Herrnstein's IQ,” Social Policy, May/June 1972.)

Do you still need more evidence?
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Quite probably, yes, as I'm very wary of academics, especially ones such as Chomsky who is particularly interested in formal logic, having aspects of their statements taken from conversation shorn of context. It does give me a path to follow to read up on this, however, which is helpful, so thank you.

There's another thread on here where Dawkins was being stated to be a polytheist, as an example, as a consequence of a point he made being quoted out of context. It is entirely possible Chomsky is an antisemite, of course, but I'll need to follow this trail indicated to better assess.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Quite probably, yes, as I'm very wary of academics, especially ones such as Chomsky who is particularly interested in formal logic, having aspects of their statements taken from conversation shorn of context. It does give me a path to follow to read up on this, however, which is helpful, so thank you.

There's another thread on here where Dawkins was being stated to be a polytheist, as an example, as a consequence of a point he made being quoted out of context. It is entirely possible Chomsky is an antisemite, of course, but I'll need to follow this trail indicated to better assess.
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That is a very good point. Chomsky can be the best linguist of the world and at the same time he can hold some not so very nice positions/views in other topics. I don't think anybody ever seriously questioned his credentials in linguistics, formal logic and so on. But he is heavily criticized (IMO correctly) for the stuff we discussed.
 
Giggsy PO said:
That is a very good point. Chomsky can be the best linguist of the world and the same time he can hold some not so very nice positions/views in other topics. I don't think anybody ever seriously questioned his credentials in linguistics, formal logic and so on. But he is heavily criticized (IMO correctly) for the stuff we discussed.
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Indeed, he may hold unpleasant beliefs, and I'm sure you understand that to support a claim as serious as that of antisemitism, more evidence outwith a couple of discrete quotes is needed.

The reason why I queried you regarding Chomsky is that I have a passing familiarity with some of his work and there is nothing in any of it that I have read where there's any inkling of antisemitism that I have perceived. Rather the opposite in fact. He is, however, precisely the type of person both due to his academic nature and his political views who is likely to be misrepresented, honestly or otherwise.

I believe that I have, for instance, found the tract from which your second quote originates, and, if it is correctly identified (looking for the original and not a quote), it has been taken completely out of context from a thought experiment expansion and very much not a statement of what Chomsky thinks.

I'll get back to you.

I will follow the trails indicated.
 
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Fingeredmouse said:
Indeed, he may hold unpleasant beliefs, and I'm sure you understand that to support a claim as serious as that of antisemitism, more evidence outwith a couple of discrete quotes is needed.

The reason why I queried you regarding Chomsky is that I have a passing familiarity with some of his work and there is nothing in any of it that I have read where there's any inkling of antisemitism that I have perceived. Rather the opposite in fact. He is, however, precisely the type of person both due to his academic nature and his political views who is likely to be misrepresented, honestly or otherwise.

I believe that I have, for instance, found the tract from which your second quote originates, and, if it is correct identified (looking for the original and not a quote), it has been taken completely out of context from a thought experiment expansion and very much not a statement of what Chomsky thinks.

I'll get back to you.

I will follow the trails indicated.
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Ok, that sounds fair. I look forward to what can you find to either support or refute the claim.
 
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