Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[AfonsoAlves]

We are entirely in agreement - my only point is that, as far as I can tell, the use of WP even in a civilian centre is not in and of itself a violation of international law.

We can talk about why Western countries wanted an exception like this in the law, but for the moment it does exist.

Attacks on citizens, disproportionate harm to civilians in pursuit of military objectives, and a hundred other things that Israel has done on a near daily basis for the entirety of my lifetime are all violations of international law, so Israel's use of WP is likely illegal for several reasons. The manner of use is of significantly more interest to international law than the properties of the thing used, and Israel's manner of use is quite blatantly aimed at creating suffering and death among a civilian population.

The reason it was added was due to some incidents during GWOT and the use of 155mm smoke shells that raised the alarm to US regional commanders who escalated up the chain.

There was a consultation with the UN, preemptively as a “uh we’re not committing war crimes by doing this are we?” Which led to some debate followed by that provision

 

[JPRouve]

We are entirely in agreement - my only point is that, as far as I can tell, the use of WP even in a civilian centre is not in and of itself a violation of international law.

We can talk about why Western countries wanted an exception like this in the law, but for the moment it does exist.

Attacks on citizens, disproportionate harm to civilians in pursuit of military objectives, and a hundred other things that Israel has done on a near daily basis for the entirety of my lifetime are all violations of international law, so Israel's use of WP is likely illegal for several reasons. The manner of use is of significantly more interest to international law than the properties of the thing used, and Israel's manner of use is quite blatantly aimed at creating suffering and death among a civilian population.

But that was my point the manner of use, I didn't state that white phosphorus was illegal, I said that it was illegal in and should have added against densely populated civilians areas because that's how they used it. The other thing is that IDF should never be given the benefit of doubts because they somehow use every single munition that is deemed immoral, they even went as far as to start a propaganda campaign to justify the potential usage of dirty bombs.

 

[maniak]

1. munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracer, smoke or signalling systems;
2. munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons but to be used against military objectives such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities (e.g., anti-tank missiles)

The videos I saw don't seem to match that definition. They were dropping it over neighborhoods.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The videos I saw don't seem to match that definition. They were dropping it over neighborhoods.

can you describe what you saw?
Was it giant fiery explosions or huge plumes of white smoke?

 

[Idxomer]

 

[Bebe]

But that was my point the manner of use, I didn't state that white phosphorus was illegal, I said that it was illegal in and should have added against densely populated civilians areas because that's how they used it. The other thing is that IDF should never be given the benefit of doubts because they somehow use every single munition that is deemed immoral, they even went as far as to start a propaganda campaign to justify the potential usage of dirty bombs.

Yeah we're effectively saying the same thing - underlying point is that Israel are quite obviously committing war crimes.

The notion of Israel getting any benefit of the doubt whatsoever should be repugnant to any human being with a functioning nervous system. I don't think it's possible to find an entity that propagates blatant and immediately obvious lies in the world today so shamelessly. A few months ago the Israel apologists were saying that Palestinians dying should have followed the guidance to flee to the south and Rafah in particular. Israel insisted that it didn't bomb Al-Shifa in October and today has proceeded to reduce that hospital along with all others to either complete rubble or IOF command centres. The lying would be hilarious if it weren't so horrific.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Yeah we're effectively saying the same thing - underlying point is that Israel are quite obviously committing war crimes.

The notion of Israel getting any benefit of the doubt whatsoever should be repugnant to any human being with a functioning nervous system. I don't think it's possible to find an entity that propagates blatant and immediately obvious lies in the world today so shamelessly. A few months ago the Israel apologists were saying that Palestinians dying should have followed the guidance to flee to the south and Rafah in particular. Israel insisted that it didn't bomb Al-Shifa in October and today has proceeded to reduce that hospital along with all others to either complete rubble or IOF command centres. The lying would be hilarious if it weren't so horrific.

I don't think they've reached cumulative Russian levels yet but its in the same ballpark of how absurd its getting.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Those who didn’t care for 7 months won’t care now.

Gaza is very small anyway. Right after October 7, Israel started saying: we only have business with the north of the Gaza Strip. Suddenly, there is north and south of this small place. Then, they moved to the middle and now they are in the “south”. Once Gaza was divided into regions, its fate was sealed.

 

[maniak]

can you describe what you saw?
Was it giant fiery explosions or huge plumes of white smoke?

Like flares slowly falling over buildings leaving a little trail of smoke also falling down.

 

[e.cantona]

Right, you've quoted my response as 'nonsense' instead of responding to my points in good faith. Think you've outed yourself as not wanting to debate sincerely and looking to derail and troll this thread.

Yes you are the gold standard me and everyone wish to live up to when it comes to good faith in this thread. Tell me where I've tried to derail the thread, not debate sincerely and trolled. Nonsense.. WB and Gaza are not the same. Hamas is not in the WB. At least not yet. One can hold "opposing" views on the subject and be critical of someones actions in one instance and not another. I take it you agree with me on everything re Hamas. Or, good faith and all, you wont reply to that

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Like flares slowly falling over buildings leaving a little trail of smoke also falling down.

Those are not HEI munitions, those will be smoke bombs. HEI explosions result in a very large noise and followed by a very white, small, rising mushroom cloud. You won't even be able to see the bomb being dropped unless you go frame by frame in HEI munitions.

It's very difficult to determine whether HEI contains WP or not - you can get a glimpse of it because the colour of the plume is more white than standard munition explosions and the visible fire is only there for a few seconds. I've studied various explosion mechanisms before and I wouldn't trust myself to be able to identify it from an image or video.

Usually requires teams on the ground.

That said, this is clearly a middle finger by Israel, what does dropping willy petes over gaza even gain them?

 

[That_Bloke]

Like flares slowly falling over buildings leaving a little trail of smoke also falling down.

That's white phosphorus.

Here pictures of Israeli WP shells on urban areas in Lebanon in October 2023.

Here's another pic of white phosphorus used by the most moral war criminals in Gaza in 2009

 

[That_Bloke]

I don't think they've reached cumulative Russian levels yet but its in the same ballpark of how absurd its getting.

You're light-years off if you think that the Russians are worse than the IDF.

 

[Raoul]

Don't bother responding to e.cantona as he can't respond.

 

[Giggsyking]

Something is wrong with the title, what august? didn't everything start on October?

 

[RedTiger]

Something is wrong with the title, what august? didn't everything start on October?

And if they pass the tryouts then they'll be hired.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

That's white phosphorus.

Here pictures of Israeli WP shells on urban areas in Lebanon in October 2023.

Here's another pic of white phosphorus used by the most moral war criminals in Gaza in 2009

These are flare munitions which are not HEI's, therefore not banned under the geneva convention, even under Civilian centers.

I'm not saying this to defend Israel, using WP flare munitions is asinine in this circumstance because it serves no purpose other than terror, i'm just pointing out the technicalities here.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

You're light-years off if you think that the Russians are worse than the IDF.

Unless you read Russian, I don't think you have the basis to comment

I'm not saying this to be aggressive by the way, but Russian domestic news channels and media constantly talk about nuking the west, calling Ukrainian pro-westerners sub-human who need to be reprogrammed, there are no innocents in Ukraine etc etc.

It's the same shit, you just are not exposed to it.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Yes, please quote what I said

Sure. I was talking about three of your statements:

1. The estimate of the number of dead women and children was revised downwards by about half.
2. This was done because Hamas is an unreliable source.
3. The default assumption about death toll numbers from Hamas should be that they're wrong and too high.

1 and 2:

How so many people can be confused on this is beyond me. Hamas targets civilians of Israel. They want to kill civilians. Woman and children. That is their goal. They use their own population, women and children, as human shields. They want their own population to get killed, so it reflects badly on Israel. This is their strategy. The numbers Hamas have provided may be correct or even too low, but UN recently revised it's estimate of women and children killed by about half, based on Hamas not being a reliable source. It is impossible to know what is the correct numbers. People taking Hamas' word regarding this as fact, is ludicrous. One shows oneself to be willing to belive just about anything, on very little evidence.

I've highlighted the relevant part for you.

3:

I am biased, I suppose. Against Hamas. You are right, of course, one shouldn't just accept these numbers. Hamas' or Israels. But, Hamas's numbers should by default be assumed wrong and too high. They literally want as many dead Palestinains as possible. Israels will, as with any such estimate, come with a margin of error. 13.000 +/- whatever, pick a number.

I see that you've been thread banned while I was typing this up, but I'm posting it anyway. I think this is a very illustrative example of the troll you are, that you either pretend to not have said the things that you very clearly have said, or that you're just being difficult and intentionally trying to waste people's time by asking them to look through your comments to prove you said the things you clearly said.

 

[Bebe]

Don't bother responding to e.cantona as he can't respond.

Thank you.

 

[That_Bloke]

These are flare munitions which are not HEI's, therefore not banned under the geneva convention, even under Civilian centers.

I'm not saying this to defend Israel, using WP flare munitions is asinine in this circumstance because it serves no purpose other than terror, i'm just pointing out the technicalities here.

The pictures I've posted came from HRW. Hell of flare munitions in the last one. There are others showing what these flares did to children in Gaza in 2009 which I won't post here but are very easy to find. Every single major human right organization reported the use of white phosphorus by Israel in urban areas. But since your military knowledge is much higher than mine, I won't engage in a losing battle and take your word for it.

I gather you are not familiar with the IDF methods and it's been at it for 75 years It's a colonial army in occupied territories with all that it entails. There's metric tons of documents of their daily war crimes, their use of humiliation, sexual violence, terror, torture and human shields. There's also videos very easy to find showing the most moral army in the world in action in Gaza as well as in the West Bank, in the past decades.

Unless you read Russian, I don't think you have the basis to comment

I'm not saying this to be aggressive by the way, but Russian domestic news channels and media constantly talk about nuking the west, calling Ukrainian pro-westerners sub-human who need to be reprogrammed, there are no innocents in Ukraine etc etc.

It's the same shit, you just are not exposed to it.

Even though I don't speak Russian, I'm neither naive nor trying to paint the Russians as choir boys. And there's enough sources in English allowing me to have pretty good idea of what the Russians are capable of, even if you definitely have an edge and access to more informations than I do.

But reading your posts makes me think that you're not as informed about Israel and the IDF as you might think.

Edit: I'm not trying to be aggressive either.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The pictures I've posted came from HRW. Hell of flare munitions in the last one. There are others showing what these flares did to children in Gaza in 2009 which I won't post here but are very easy to find. Every single major human right organization reported the use of white phosphorus by Israel. But since your military knowledge is much higher than mine, I won't engage in a losing battle and take your word for it.

I gather you are not familiar with the IDF methods and it's been at it for 75 years. There's metric tons of documents of their daily war crimes, their use of sexual violence, terror, and torture and human shields, as well as videos also very easy to find with the most moral army in the world in action in Gaza as well as in the West Bank in the past decades.


Even though I don't speak Russian, I'm neither naive nor trying to paint the Russians as choir boys. And there's enough sources in English allowing me to have pretty good idea of what the Russians are capable of.

But reading your posts makes me think that you're not as informed about Israel and the IDF as you might think.

Edit: I'm not trying to be aggressive either.

We are talking about the same thing right? i.e how ridiculous Russian/Israeli Propoganda is and how laughable/transparent it is. I'm not comparing military conduct. IDF has been way worse than Russia.

Regarding flare munitions, it IS White Phosphorus, but the munition type is not banned under convention, even in Civilian centers.

As for the scale, it's pretty normal for aerially launched flares

They are very useful in dusk/dawn operations, especially when there is no natural skyline/earth line separation.

There is 0 military use in setting them off over a dense civilian population.

 

[dumbo]

That might be enough on White Phosphorus and the legal minutiae, thanks.

All very interesting but much more of this might start looking like a deliberate derailment strategy.

You are welcome to continue that discussion in any of the other many military threads on the forum.

Feel free to continue discussing it here if it directly relates to Israel (or Palestinians) using it.

 

[4bars]

That might be enough on White Phosphorus and the legal minutiae, thanks.

All very interesting but much more of this might start looking like a deliberate derailment strategy.

You are welcome to continue that discussion in any of the other many military threads on the forum.

Feel free to continue discussing it here if it directly relates to Israel (or Palestinians) using it.

I pretty much like the discussion. And as it is what Palestinia is being attack in Israel and what is legal or not in a war that is discussed its legality I think is pretty much on topic.

So they can keep going. Should we do a poll? or your decision is paramount?

 

[That_Bloke]

We are talking about the same thing right? i.e how ridiculous Russian/Israeli Propoganda is and how laughable/transparent it is. I'm not comparing military conduct. IDF has been way worse than Russia.

Regarding flare munitions, it IS White Phosphorus, but the munition type is not banned under convention, even in Civilian centers.

As for the scale, it's pretty normal for aerially launched flares

They are very useful in dusk/dawn operations, especially when there is no natural skyline/earth line separation.

There is 0 military use in setting them off over a dense civilian population.

Ah, I finally got what you're saying.

Many thanks for the explanation.

 

[RedTiger]

True. We're arguing about international law as if international law means anything.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[dumbo]

I pretty much like the discussion. And as it is what Palestinia is being attack in Israel and what is legal or not in a war that is discussed its legality I think is pretty much on topic.

So they can keep going. Should we do a poll? or your decision is paramount?

No pole, it's just my own suggestion because I found it tedious and cumbersome wading through the last couple of pages. And because this isn't the first time that certain posters have dominated thread space, with chunky post that take these threads off topic, perhaps with an ulterior motive.

 

[4bars]

No pole, it's just my own suggestion because I found it tedious and cumbersome wading through the last couple of pages. And because this isn't the first time that certain posters have dominated thread space, with chunky post that take these threads off topic.

Then scroll down quick. I guess is a matter of taste? I enjoyed this discussion and I think is on topic. There are other posters/topics that I don't like and takes me less than 1 second to scroll down

 

[AfonsoAlves]

That might be enough on White Phosphorus and the legal minutiae, thanks.

All very interesting but much more of this might start looking like a deliberate derailment strategy.

You are welcome to continue that discussion in any of the other many military threads on the forum.

Feel free to continue discussing it here if it directly relates to Israel (or Palestinians) using it.

Sorry, What is this supposed to imply?

Are you saying it's starting to look like I'm trying to derail conversations around what Israel is doing?

I also sometimes go off on very specific tangents on specific words that people have said in the Ukraine thread, exponentially more than on here.
To me, getting the details right is very important.

Do you think it's looking like I'm trying to derail conversations around Ukraine too?

 

[That_Bloke]

Sorry, What is this supposed to imply?

Are you saying it's starting to look like I'm trying to derail conversations around what Israel is doing?

I also sometimes go off on very specific tangents on specific words that people have said in the Ukraine thread, exponentially more than on here.
To me, getting the details right is very important.

Do you think it's looking like I'm trying to derail conversations around Ukraine too?

You didn't and it was very informative. Don't let this kind of posts put you off. If any, you should post here more often.

 

[Raoul]

No pole, it's just my own suggestion because I found it tedious and cumbersome wading through the last couple of pages. And because this isn't the first time that certain posters have dominated thread space, with chunky post that take these threads off topic, perhaps with an ulterior motive.

The white phosphorus chat emerged from events taking place on the ground. If things veer off topic they will eventually be moved to the CE general chat thread.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

@dumbo

Can you please explain what you mean?

Especially with

" perhaps with an ulterior motive. "

 

[ManUtd1999]

I repeat what I said earlier: France remains the most balanced/reasonable country on this issue.

The speaker condemns the terror attack of 10/7 and the rockets fired on Israel, and calls for releasing all hostages. He also calls for immediate ceasefire, allowing for aid to reach the civilian population in Gaza and condemns the settlers in the West Bank. He also affirms the position of France in support of the two-state solution.

That’s pretty much what I would say. We need more of this, starting with the UK. The U.S. could’ve, and should’ve, taken this approach a long time ago.

 

[VorZakone]

I repeat what I said earlier: France remains the most balanced/reasonable country on this issue.

The speaker condemns the terror attack of 10/7 and the rockets fired on Israel, and calls for releasing all hostages. He also calls for immediate ceasefire, allowing for aid to reach the civilian population in Gaza and condemns the settlers in the West Bank. He also affirms the position of France in support of the two-state solution.

That’s pretty much what I would say. We need more of this, starting with the UK. The U.S. could’ve, and should’ve, taken this approach a long time ago.

France however have not recognized a Palestinian state (yet). Others, such as Ireland and Norway, have.

 

[ManUtd1999]

France however have not recognized a Palestinian state (yet). Others, such as Ireland and Norway, have.

I hope they get there soon. But at least they are calling for a ceasefire. First thing first.

 

[Idxomer]

I saw a headline of Macron asking Abbas to fix the PA so they could recognize a Palestinian state.

Some of these Western leaders live in an alternate reality.

 

[JPRouve]

I saw a headline of Macron asking Abbas to fix the PA so they could recognize a Palestinian state.

Some of these Western leaders live in an alternate reality.

For once I don't really see a problem with what was said. But one detail made me look into something, it talked about a french resolution in the context of supporting the reinforcement of the PA and working alongside Algeria and the UN. Now earlier this month a communicate was published where it is said that France is is in favour of the admission of Palestine as a full member in the UN which is followed by France presenting a two state resolution to the security council.

 

[Idxomer]

For once I don't really see a problem with what was said. But one detail made me look into something, it talked about a french resolution in the context of supporting the reinforcement of the PA and working alongside Algeria and the UN. Now earlier this month a communicate was published where it is said that France is is in favour of the admission of Palestine as a full member in the UN which is followed by France presenting a two state resolution to the security council.

Abbas is an 88-year-old puppet, he won't be able to reform anything. Even if he were competent, he would still have the occupation boots on his neck all the time.

 

[berbatrick]

About the 6th or 7th time an Israeli govt official has said this