To be fair, given how the season went, it is clear that the owners (and fans) are not 100% behind him. It is just whether the owners actually see the hope of reaping massive sudden progress under him (after let's for the sake of argument say "incubation" of his plan) to let him continue to manage the squad into the next season or so.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
To be fair, given how the season went, it is clear that the owners (and fans) are not 100% behind him. It is just whether the owners actually see the hope of reaping massive sudden progress under him (after let's for the sake of argument say "incubation" of his plan) to let him continue to manage the squad into the next season or so.
That's for the club to decide.
Don’t get me wrong this season has been horrendous and I have previously wanted ETH sacked come end of the campaign.
ETH has made three cup finals winning two trophies, and a 3rd place finish.
All of his reliable players…Rashford, Shaw, Martinez, Casemiro, Bruno, Varane have either been injured or completely underperforming for large parts of the season, so next season has to be an improvement on that front. You can’t expect results and performances without those players above.
His tactics largely have been poor, but the last 4 games we’ve seen some changes and finally some willingness to be adaptable.
The biggest argument as many mentioned there is no outstanding candidate out there. There really aren’t many managers who can instigate a dominant win vs City like he did.
I now think give him a season under the new structure.
It wasn't a dominant win. Plus it's just one game. Ole beat Pep's City 4 times with worse squad. Means nothing.
I will honestly admit it's the one thing that worries me about England winning the Euros, INEOS will conveniently forget the fact his last club job was a relegation 15 years ago.
Ah but you failed to account for the time it takes for a committee to digest all of this information and make fancy power points and reports for the middle management. After an internal review and multiple rounds of back and forth the decision will be ready to communicate upwards. The execs then nit pick and ask for minor revisions because they don't like the font the intern used on the report or because there was a typo on page 32 of 600.
It's easily a year long project. It takes time to strategize about these things.
If we don't have a manager before the Euro final on July 15th, then I believe thats a much bigger issue than who that manager is.
May not be the same manager all the way through. We've been at this in one form or another for 10 years, so what's another 7 ?
As time passes it looks like we have decided to have him at the helm for next season. If we are continuing with him without an extension then nothing really needs to be announced.
Stop being impatient the season has just finished. Conte got sacked from Chelsea in July after winning an FA Cup and that was decided in March.
If he continues to fail into the next season then you sack him.
And no, no one can really reset mid season. He needs a transfer window to right some wrongs (and he's not going to be the sole lead on targets this time if he stays so I don't see a risk there), and he needs a revamp on how his medical and support side evaluate injuries and manage players. It's not easy to reset mid season.
It's coming up to two weeks since the cup final, given that length of time, I'm expecting ETH will be staying on. But if INEOS haven't yet communicated to ETH then they need to hurry up so we can actually plan for the new campaign with or without him. Why everything at United has to rumble on is beyond me!
True eye opener. For some reason people remember Klopp finishing 4th in his first two full seasons, or reaching CL final in 17-18 (his second full season) but it was all a lie. He struggled greatly in both those seasons, making Liverpool WORSE and playing AWFUL football.
Keeping him with a view of sacking him next year is the worst thing we can do. If we keep him we give him full season at the very least. Unless we get significantly worse of course, but as long as he can deliver a season like last (which we will have deemed acceptable) he should be untouchable. You just do a next thorough review at the end of season and assess him then.
I also disagree with the notion of him not being the lead on transfers. This just gives a new excuse and makes it impossible to assess him at the end of season because if things go south we will have to presume it’s partly because INEOS will have brought him wrong players. He has started building his own team and should continue to do so.
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He got 8th position(and the accompanying negative records) mainly because he stubbornly refused to change from his suicide 'donut' formation,where the midfield was nonexistent, throughout the season. Consequently, every team, from the Epl down to the likes of Newport and Coventry, were able to stroll through the midfield and pepper our goal with numerous shots. Everybody could see where the problem was, but in his mind this was entertaining. So the idea that he failed because of 'structure','transfer window' and all the other excuses being trotted out is not borne out by any facts and is complete balderdash. It is only when he did a reset on his poor tactics over the last few games that the performances and results noticeably improved.
This is why the club should not waste another season on this manager. The club indulged him over the last window and gave him most of what he wanted but the performances were dire, even with his poor purchases taken into account. His puzzling stubbornness and unwillingness to be pragmatic when there are injuries are serious red flags.The inability to make proper subs has led to loss of points in the last minutes of a number of games. Even looking at this FA cup run that has hoodwinked everybody, Coventry were very unlucky in the dying minutes of that semi.This points to a deficiency in tactical awareness which means he cannot take the club forward. A new structure needs a new manager so everybody starts on a fresh page.
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Please explain how Ten Hag has played 86 league games in 2x 38 game seasons to amass a 1.95ppg?
But that wasn't really my question mate, if we have a decent season next year 3rd-4th. I presume you would keep him for a 4th season yes?
But then if the wheels come off again in season 4 I'm sure you'd be of the opinion that he'd definitely get sacked, at which point we'll be in the exact same position we are now. 1 good season followed by 1 bad season, but we'll have wasted another 2 years, 4 years all together on the Ten Hag project. That's why I don't trust him to take us forward, the dip this season can't all be explained by injuries.
I could accept a bad season this year and chalk it up to injuries, but it wasn't just bad. It was diabolical in terms of results, team performances (many players regressing), nonsensical tactics etc etc. For me you can't go through an entire season playing the same nonsense tactics that clearly aren't working, tanking the season in the process and keep your job. I think Ten Hag is a good coach, I do. But I reckon he's blown his United career through stubborness, as I still think he'll get sacked soon.
It isn't easy to reset mid-season, but it's not impossible either. And for some reason he didn't seem to think his job was on the line, so he just cracked on. Maybe there was no one in place to say anything to him with the changover of power.
We wouldn't have a view to sack him unless he continues similar form domestically to last season.
The excuses are Immaterial after scraping a sack and still performing poorly, in this hypothetical scenario. Especially after he praised the base of the team.
Excuses from managers who get sacked is the norm anyway, it's not ten hag specific.
You're projecting a scenario that has little basis. He's had one solid year and one poor year. Youre assuming it suddenly alternates from there like a yoyo based on, well I dont know what. He doesn't really have a track record of doing that.
On the flip side you can argue tuchel will have a track record of blowing up in year two and we are left off in the same place.
I think he was too stubborn too and I think that will get him sacked.
However your premise is based on an assumption that he won't learn from that, that he won't adapt to better owners above him, and he isn't suited to a game model as suggested by Wilcox. I find that far fetched.
Ok, that's your opinion, but it didn't happen and there a lot of reasons behind the scenes that may have made it more difficult.
What you've basically said here is "he persisted with a shit formation for too long. He is capable of changing it and bettering our side tactically and in results as evidenced by the end of the season, but I want to sack him now because it took him too long to do that".
Sounds like firing out of rage rather than evaluating pedigree to be honest. Whilst agreeing he should have tweaked when he had injured players, I don't think he has gaping flaws that many other managers don't have. Remember, his medical team is broadly shit too, if they have miscommunicsted and misjudged injuries (which they've proven to do), it hampers planning.
He was too stubborn for too long but insinuating he's not adaptable and outright won't learn form his mistakes is presumotious.
Come on, it has been said so many times on here the major difference between what klopp and arteta were doing and what ten hag has done is that they were clearly building something and embedding a style of play that could result in title challenges (oh and the cl for klopp). There is literally zero indication of this for ten hag.
You can cherry pick stars all you like but that should be clear to anyone who actually watches the games
He threw away the season because he persisted with God awful tactics for the vast majority of it. His plan a has been torn to shreds both seasons and the only football he can get us to play that makes us look half way competent is a poor mans ole ball. Sounds like a good reason to fire him
So the base of the team is ok? In your earlier post you suggested that he failed because he needed another transfer window to 'right some wrongs'. Surely a team with a good base only needs a few tweaks to get results,no? Incidentally,what are these 'wrongs'?
Sounds like a lazy and incomplete evaluation, whilst not disagreeing with the sentiment. But let's agree to disagree on how comprehensive the reasoning is.
90% of last season he had the completely wrong setup that exposed us even more than any "regular" one, but he had a couple of decent games (with a bit of luck on our side) and suddenly he is "capable of changing it" and "adaptable" manager.
Many fans have chosen a side and will just come up with arguments that support their view. He is as far from "adaptable" as it gets, what is the main reason why we should get rid of him. The second reason is he makes us play poor/shit football with no element of control what will always result in "flip of a coin" results.
And the excuses keep on piling....nothing bad can stick to Mr.Teflon in this universe. This thread is genuinely hilarious.Now, stubbornly persisting for too long with something that clearly doesn't work are sufficient grounds for dismissal. It leads to poor results and low league ranking which leads to loss of earnings when the club fails to qualify for more lucrative competitions,something that also affects earnings from sponsors. Also,it traumatizes and demoralizes players,even good youngsters like Mainoo who are made to look like mugs when poor teams run rings around them. Finally it brings ridicule and makes the club a laughing stock,and this was not what the club had in mind when it was hiring him.
Hmm.. those numbers do not make sense.
- 38 x 2 is 76, not 86.
- We won 18 games this season and 23 last season - which makes for 41 not 53.
- In both seasons we drew 6 games - which makes for 12, not 9.
- We lost 14 games this season and 9 last season, which makes for 23 losses - not 25.
- In total we accumulated 75 + 60 points - which is 135, not 168 (obviously).
- Which makes for 1.77 points per game
- Also, who would label the league cup a major trophy?
Dominant!? So dominant we were a schoolboy error and the width of the bar away from loosing the game.
And of the available managers, Poch has a very good record Vs city and Tuchel beat Peps city in a CL final.
It's a really weak argument.
For Klopp yes his style was plain to see. However, go back to any Arsenal forum or sub-reddit from that time and you'd see the same arguments about lack of style, no indication of anything being built, boring football etc. With Arteta everything is in hindsight now that they are doing well and have the right players in to play how he wants.
Lets say EtH stays on and next season the consensus is the team has stepped up a gear with a few signings and easily finishes 3rd or challenges for 2nd. Fans will cherry pick the good from the past 2 seasons e.g. EtH was the only post-fergie manager to beat City when it counted in a final, integrating youth, our press is better than under previous managers, good transitions, aggressive high line defending when Martinez is playing etc.
Regarding Ten Hag's style I'd counter you and say yes it is clear what he is doing as he has done it before at Ajax. The lone deep midfielder supplemented by a good ball playing back line and ball playing gk to break through an opposition's press. Two high 8's with one dropping into the pocket of space left vacant in midfield when needed and an aggressive press. Which are characteristics of Ten Hag's Ajax. Where I won't really argue is on the decision to switch to it this season when we still had key players missing for that type of football to work e.g. no press resisitant DM, only 1 CB suitable for the role in Martinez added to the crazy injuries. However, its clear he was trying to switch the team to his Ajax style (regardless of his comments about not being able to do so). You just have to go back and watch some Ajax matches during their champions league run season to see the similarities in tactics.
Such an evasion.
Encourage sacking him and then refuse to stick your neck out on a replacement.
The reality is there is no tangible replacement and this is why Ineos are taking their time and going off as many angles as they can. Stick or twist is fraught with risk, and Ineos will want to cover their own backs.
I don't mean to be cynical when I say that. Ineos obviously are trying to build a CFG style
portfolio and making decisions which backfire will stymy such an ambition.
My guess is that they added cup games which makes the points stat totally bogus. Also these teams didn't start from a similar point, Arsenal in the worst position by far both Arteta and Klopp joined their teams midseason and had to figure things out on the fly while ETH had time to plan and the ability to bring players from day one, also United were the only top 4 regular in the the previous handful of seasons.
ETH has said over and over that he wont play his Ajax style. You think it was some kind of mind games?
Can we stop pretending Arteta was "building something". He looked fecking terrible in his early years and was bang lucky to keep his job.
I agree that the 3rd year challenging for 4th shouldn't be the target. You would expect him to challenge right? which means you think the team is ready to challenge.
What would your expectations be for a new manager then?
And it's not they style that he used outside of Ajax or the style he used in the CL KO stage.
Dominant is probably the wrong word. Did we deserve to win? Yes we did.
Saying we were a schoolboy error and a width of the bar away from losing is a bit of a cop out. They scored because of a schoolboy error. The Haaland chance was a difficult chance. There's very little big chances I recall City actually having. The Alvarez one sticks out but that was the best chance they had.
On the flip side, both of Garnachos 2 chances could have gone in if he hadn't shot straight at the keeper. Rashfords goal was chalked off to a very marginal offside.
So coulda woulda shoulda
I do not understand why it is necessary to make it seem like Ten Hag has done better than he has. He has perfectly good achievements without fudging the stats, but this league season has been beyond terrible, compounded by his self-admitted stubbornness to not change tactics, and not acknowledging that makes any "reasonable" argument towards keeping him unconvincing.
It may be both