Darren Fletcher

Do you honestly think we'd be where we are now if he didn't?

I'm on record as saying that Fergie needed to get his midfield combo sorted for the run in. By this time Carrick and Hargreaves should have played regularly together with Anderson or Scholes. The same applies to the attack. The Tevez / Rooney partnership has not been allowed to fully blossom. Yes we have done well and we are top of the league and in the SF of the CL. However, there is a danger that we could throw it all away because we are suddenly not playing like the team of say a month ago and also because of very strange tactics. Don't forget we had a five point lead a couple of weeks ago and were almost odds on favourites to beat Barca at their place. Rather dramatically all that's changed. Why ?
 
Some of the criticism of him here got very personal and very over the top .Frankly, and I'm not one for this sort of talk, but it was a disgrace. There's fair comment and there's making someone a scapegoat. The sort of shit he got from some United fans was absolutely shocking. Some people - and I remember who they were - were giving it the "Fergie's picking him because he's Scottish' shit, and those who did should be ashamed. Let's not dick around here k14, it's alright criticizing but don't go around making out like all the shit Fletch got wasn't below the belt.

Excellent post Gazza. I remember the comments well. Some even said he was Fergies love child! Completely disrespectful to both.
 
Don't forget we had a five point lead a couple of weeks ago and were almost odds on favourites to beat Barca at their place. Rather dramatically all that's changed. Why ?

Because Fergie keeps tinkering with the line up every match.
Its too late in the game to rest key players or risk playing squad players. Why does anyone need to be rested when we have just a few games left ? Other than Rio, Brown and Ronaldo, I doubt anyone else can claim to be fatigued.
 
Wonderful player. Can be our new keane in a couple of years if he improves on his physique. He will be my first player on the team sheet outside our defence if we reach the CL final.
 
Don't forget we had a five point lead a couple of weeks ago and were almost odds on favourites to beat Barca at their place. Rather dramatically all that's changed. Why ?

The answer to your question lies in the fact that it's also been a couple of weeks since we last played at home.

The reason we didn't beat Barca at the Camp Nou, despite being odds on favourites, was more to with the ridiculous under-rating of Barca, by all and sundry, than anything else.
 
You're in a minority of one here.

As you can see from the comments on the thread you started.

By the way, he didn't lose Ballack. He was marking Essien when he noticed Ballack make an un-marked run behind him (with Anderson at least 10 yards further back, jogging) but wasn't able to catch up with him in time. If anyone is to blame for Ballack's uncontested header it's Anderson.

Anderson was the most attackin midfielder. To blame is Carrick without a doubt.
 
Anderson was the most attackin midfielder. To blame is Carrick without a doubt.

It could have been either of the three, no ones knows for sure but someone didn't do their job thats for sure, also Hargreaves should have been covering alot better a more natural right back would have seen the danger alot better.
 
The answer to your question lies in the fact that it's also been a couple of weeks since we last played at home.

The reason we didn't beat Barca at the Camp Nou, despite being odds on favourites, was more to with the ridiculous under-rating of Barca, by all and sundry, than anything else.

Most supporters are worried about the performances than the results. 35% possession against Barca is embarrassing. It was like a championship side trying to hold out against United or Arsenal in the FA cup. SAF had no intention of winning the game against Chelsea. If we had tried to win and lost against Barca/Chelsea, no one would complain. No one did when we lost the FA cup after battering Arsenal.

Its crazy that we are using negative tactics even though we have Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Nani, Giggs and Anderson in the squad. Was it Capello who said we have a better attacking line up than Eto, Messi, Dinho and Henry ? Whats the point if SAF continues with shite on a stick tactics.
 
I'm on record as saying that Fergie needed to get his midfield combo sorted for the run in. By this time Carrick and Hargreaves should have played regularly together with Anderson or Scholes. The same applies to the attack. The Tevez / Rooney partnership has not been allowed to fully blossom. Yes we have done well and we are top of the league and in the SF of the CL. However, there is a danger that we could throw it all away because we are suddenly not playing like the team of say a month ago and also because of very strange tactics. Don't forget we had a five point lead a couple of weeks ago and were almost odds on favourites to beat Barca at their place. Rather dramatically all that's changed. Why ?

because thats football, it isn't predictable or logical most of the time, which for me is the main reason it is the worlds most popular sport, anyone has a chance in any given game.

we've been through a spell with Vidic out, rooney and rio carrying injuries and have just visited two of the best teams in europe, what did you expect? 2 easy victories. I think you're buying far too much into the media hype. They'll build us up as the best ever when playing well and call us shite when we don't.
 
It's all Fergie's fault, Karma.

To be honest, the best piece of business we can do this summer is to get rid of Fergie.

He's lost it.
 
Some of the criticism of him here got very personal and very over the top .Frankly, and I'm not one for this sort of talk, but it was a disgrace. There's fair comment and there's making someone a scapegoat. The sort of shit he got from some United fans was absolutely shocking. Some people - and I remember who they were - were giving it the "Fergie's picking him because he's Scottish' shit, and those who did should be ashamed. Let's not dick around here k14, it's alright criticizing but don't go around making out like all the shit Fletch got wasn't below the belt.

on any given topic there will always be those that go well over the top with praise or criticism, I know I've done it at times because football's an emotional game and that clouds judgement, not to mention some people are just idiots.

Generally K14 is right, the sensible criticism Fletcher received a few years ago was justified, and those that gave the criticism also accepted that he was out of position and his injury problems had affected his development.
 
Anderson was the most attackin midfielder. To blame is Carrick without a doubt.

I'm only basing this on what I saw on the replays. Ballack came from deep, and was ignored by Anderson, who was jogging some distance behind him.

I actually don't think the goal was the fault of any individual. It was a very good cross and a clever run. Sometimes you can't legislate for quality football like that.

Carrick got attracted to the ball but as a holding midfielder, sometimes you have to do that.

Fletcher was slow to pick up on the run from Ballack but he was marking Essien at the time.

Anderson didn't make enough effort to track Ballack's run but he was playing in an attacking role, so defensive duties might not have been uppermost in his mind.

All three of them might have reacted differently and helped prevent the goal and none of them are entirely blameless. But shit happens, that's football.

Of course, this won't stop caftards picking out whichever individual player they happen to have an agenda against beforehand.
 
It could have been either of the three, no ones knows for sure but someone didn't do their job thats for sure, also Hargreaves should have been covering alot better a more natural right back would have seen the danger alot better.

agreed.
 
I'm only basing this on what I saw on the replays. Ballack came from deep, and was ignored by Anderson, who was jogging some distance behind him.

I actually don't think the goal was the fault of any individual. It was a very good cross and a clever run. Sometimes you can't legislate for quality football like that.

Carrick got attracted to the ball but as a holding midfielder, sometimes you have to do that.

Fletcher was slow to pick up on the run from Ballack but he was marking Essien at the time.

Anderson didn't make enough effort to track Ballack's run but he was playing in an attacking role, so defensive duties might not have been uppermost in his mind.

All three of them might have reacted differently and helped prevent the goal and none of them are entirely blameless. But shit happens, that's football.

Of course, this won't stop caftards picking out whichever individual player they happen to have an agenda against beforehand.

Nah, my "Carrick is to blame" was more sarcastic than actually seriously, pointing at all those "he was at fault" posts in the thread.

I second your points.
 
It's all Fergie's fault, Karma.

To be honest, the best piece of business we can do this summer is to get rid of Fergie.

He's lost it.

I simply don't understand this, I guess if we win on tue and win our last 2 games he'll be Gods gift again. Or are you being sarcastic?
 
Trying to be a top red ? SAF never makes mistakes :wenger:

Once again retards like you fail to spot the difference between a comment on our tactics in a game versus 'sack Fergie/sell Giggs'

What is a "top red"?

Sir Alex makes mistakes like everyone does. No one is faultless.

Once again, you only manage to come out with negative shite about the club and the team.

You are either a WUM cnut, or a gimp.
 
What is a "top red"?

Sir Alex makes mistakes like everyone does. No one is faultless.

Once again, you only manage to come out with negative shite about the club and the team.

You are either a WUM cnut, or a gimp.

or all of them.
 
You're tryin' got be a top Red, Boring. I'm a middle Red.
 
Its crazy that we are using negative tactics even though we have Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Nani, Giggs and Anderson in the squad. Was it Capello who said we have a better attacking line up than Eto, Messi, Dinho and Henry ? Whats the point if SAF continues with shite on a stick tactics.

The problem with people like you and Mozza is that you can't see the difference between a poor performance and shit tactics. Nor can you ever give the opposition any credit for being the reason we put in a poor performance.

You think that football is all about tactics and formation and, if you had your way, the human element would be removed altogether.

Personally, I love football because it's such an unpredictable, emotional sport, where games hinge on the support of the fans and the passion and desire of the players and the manager, rather than a load of markers on a fecking white-board.

All of which makes debating with you and incredibly pointless experience. Your world-view, when it comes to football, is painfully black and white.
 
The problem with people like you and Mozza is that you can't see the difference between a poor performance and shit tactics. Nor can you ever give the opposition any credit for being the reason we put in a poor performance.

You think that football is all about tactics and formation and, if you had your way, the human element would be removed altogether.

Personally, I love football because it's such an unpredictable, emotional sport, where games hinge on the support of the fans and the passion and desire of the players and the manager, rather than a load of markers on a fecking white-board.

All of which makes debating with you and incredibly pointless experience. Your world-view, when it comes to football, is painfully black and white.

To be fair, the first three paragraphs of that should be quoted as the stock response to the 'SAF got it wrong/442/Defensive mindset/We are shit in europe, etc etc threads.

Although there may be an element of bias involved, I think Manchester United Football Club are the greatest thing, ever. Having said that, we can't always impose ourselves on every team we play. There will always be bad days, a few weeks where we have to ride out the storm, like the last couple of weeks. The realities of the ebb and flow of games, and the minute details and circumstances that go with every game of football, are far more subtle than a lot of the discussion on here would have you believe.
 
The problem with people like you and Mozza is that you can't see the difference between a poor performance and shit tactics. Nor can you ever give the opposition any credit for being the reason we put in a poor performance.

Loss against City = Poor performance
Continuing to play your best players out of position = Poor tactics which lead to a poor performance.

If the tactics were right, do you honestly think that Rooney should play on the wing and Ronaldo as a striker in every big game next season ?
 
Loss against City = Poor performance
Continuing to play your best players out of position = Poor tactics which lead to a poor performance.

If the tactics were right, do you honestly think that Rooney should play on the wing and Ronaldo as a striker in every big game next season ?

That's not been the case this season, so I don't think it will be the case next season.
 
Someone a while back posted a very good analysis of why he performs against good teams, and less so poor teams.

It was basically along the lines of that his strong points are his driving runs and tackling. He's more suited to breaking down attacks and driving the team forwards. He's less useful when the opposition put 10 men behind the ball and he has to try and thread the ball through their defence.

Was it this?

The Hairdryer said:
I know there's several other threads, but I feel, due to my defending of this kid for a long time, that I am due my own thread on him.

As most of you know I've been sticking up for Fletcher since I joined this message board. I've even been asked by posters such as Robbo whether I was his dad or not. I didn't really understand this though as earlier in the same thread he was 100% sure that Fergie was his father.

Anyway, I've been saying this forever. When we're playing a team that is better with the ball at their feet than us, and our tactic is to bypass our midfeld, then there's nobody better suited to our midfield than Darren Fletcher. His proved this a million times for Scotland and against AC Milan and Arsenal in previous years. The kid is a dynamo. He's barely played a game all season and he's still the fittest player in the squad. You're talking about someone who can clock the 20m-v02 beep test on his first week of preseason training.

In defence he'll harass and harry and run all day and, much like a basketballer defends. Although he's got a good slide tackle he barely uses it, as he's very tactically aware. Instead he prefers to get goal side as soon as possible and basically cuts of there best option for a pass forward pass. This does one important thing. It allows our other players time to get back and join the defence.

In attack when we play the long ball game he's a demon at reading where the loose ball is going to fall. He'll attack this space everytime, then he'll look to for a quick pass and then he'll look to either get wide or get into a scoring position. This was evident several times against Arsenal on the weekend.

Unfortunately for us 95% of the games we play are against teams we are clearly better with ball than. So Darren's talents aren't really needed. He's not the kind of player that can sit back and dictate play. When he does try this he looks like fish out of water.

The criticism he gets from people is completely over the top, even though I kind of understand it. He's sometimes frustrating to watch when the game doesn't suit him. I know what some of you are thinking. "He's a United player, he should be good enough to play in any type of game" or "This is bollocks, what's the point of having a midfielder who can't play when you are passing through your midfield". Well I suppose you have a point but I'll ask you this. Is there any harm in keeping the lad on the books and giving him a few games throughout the year if it means we have an important tool when it comes to playing other top teams?

Of course the answer is no. There's no harm. He's a good kid, and in his own way immensely talented.
 
If the tactics were right, do you honestly think that Rooney should play on the wing and Ronaldo as a striker in every big game next season ?

I've only played competitive football at a fairly mediocre level. I've never managed a football team. I know a fair bit about footy but I certainly don't know enough to have a career in the game. All I know about the attributes and abilities of our individual players is what I see on match-day.

So all in all - and controversial as this might seems - if SAF think that Rooney should play on the wing and Ronaldo up front, then I'm happy that he knows exactly what he's doing and that the team will be better off as a result.
 
Loss against City = Poor performance
Continuing to play your best players out of position = Poor tactics which lead to a poor performance.

If the tactics were right, do you honestly think that Rooney should play on the wing and Ronaldo as a striker in every big game next season ?

can we see how the season actually turns out before we start turning on the team, at the moment we're top of the league and have a CL semi on tue. At least wait until 10pm on tue before you tear into SAF.