Yeah I agree, and that is the big problem. These are people beyond reasoning with, and even beyond appeal from 'inside' their own faith.
Gunmen attack Mumbai in at least seven places
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Yeah I agree, and that is the big problem. These are people beyond reasoning with, and even beyond appeal from 'inside' their own faith.
Exactly.
Yes this is true - there is no equivalent of the Pope etc.
However, each Islamic country and sect has their top clerics and scholars who send out messages about fatwas, interpretation of Islamic law etc. These messages should come from these same people.
But what about trying to send out the right message to those that have not yet been radicalised but are vunerable to becoming so?
The message is very clear buddy.
Even MI5 acknowledge Mosques, and scholars are not the source of recruitment. There were very few cases of terrorism a decade ago. Islam has been around for over 15 centuries. I hardly think Islam has changed suddenly in the last 10 years and become a tool for converting young Muslims to fundamentalism.
The current political climate in some parts of the world is giving terrorist recruiters plenty excuses to brainwash likely young converts to their web of nationalistic, and racist causes - world leaders need to work on changes to political landscapes, which in turn will reduce the excuses these terrorists need to commit these atrocities.
This argument has been done on the caf before on a bigger scale. Plech made a series of very long post which I remember sitting back and agreeing with 100%. Only problem is I have no idea where it is or what was said...
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
I remember I was arguing against Plech on a similar topic with long posts and probably lost the argument...
Blame nationalism, racism and world politics, but definitely not religion.
The message is, indeed, clear.
I still can't understand how so much ammunition has found it's way into the hotels with so much security.
There must be hundreds of tons of food and drink and bedding and stuff taken in every week - but it does indicate a lot of planning and some inside work. No harder than studying for pilot's licences, though.
I have not suggested anywhere that Mosques and scholars are the source of recruitment so I am not sure why you mention this?
In fact I dont really understand what I have said that you have a problem with?
I totally agree that world leaders need to change the political landscape to take away the excuses used to brainwash people to extremist causes.
But do you disagree that strong messages sent from the top Muslim scholars could help to prevent some of the radicalisation that is taking place among young Muslims?
Huh!!!
I suppose you haven't heard of the Invincible One 'Teddy Haggard'?!
Former leader of over 30 million wack-job Christians. He was also known to reach out to the gay community and drug dealers. His love is boundless.
I don't have a problem with anything you have written mate - we're just debating on a forum. If I wrote anything out of turn please accept my apologies.
I did however put a link where Muslim leaders have given fatwas/opinions on terrorism. I agree these opinions help to a certain degree in preventing radicalisation.
I've just been looking at photos of the attackers on the old BBC. Being practical, rather than racist, people from different parts of the world do have different appearances. And to me the gunmen shown look more like people from the south or west of India, rather than the usual suspects. Are we sure this is even a muslim thing at all? Terrible generalising I know, but is it just me?
For not doing it enough, one thing you have to remember is some "top cleric Muslim" coming out and saying terrorism is bad and the killing of innocent is not acceptable is a bit obvious and certainly isn't front page news. Especially when it is happening time and time again.
Its even harder when the people that are orchestrating this live in their own world. They literally do have their own villages and places in some cases.
Don't know enough to comment about the specifics here but it could be anyone. Generally though for most people there, religion is a way of life for the majority so its possible. A group has been mentioned but I'm always sceptical as these groups want recognition and power so they try and claim others work sometimes, maybe even a cover up for another group. There have been strong hints though at the Pak/Afghan area but I guess we will find out later, more immediate problems as of now.
These attacks are certainly a bit more planned and widespread than normal though.
I remember him being in the minority so maybe not...
Its even harder when the people that are orchestrating this live in their own world. They literally do have their own villages and places in some cases.
Don't know enough to comment about the specifics here but it could be anyone. Generally though for most people there, religion is a way of life for the majority so its possible. A group has been mentioned but I'm always sceptical as these groups want recognition and power so they try and claim others work sometimes, maybe even a cover up for another group. There have been strong hints though at the Pak/Afghan area but I guess we will find out later, more immediate problems as of now.
These attacks are certainly a bit more planned and widespread than normal though.
I remember him being in the minority so maybe not...
Fair enough - I was sensing a bit of hostility, perhaps I misunderstood - no need to apologise.
Yes I had a look at a the link - this is all good stuff and I hope to see more stuff like this to make sure the message is clear.
Have you got a link to the these photos please.
I saw a photo of one terrorist in which he's wearing an orange coloured string/strap (Rakhee Bandan?) which is not worn in Islamic cultures. May be it was a ploy just to try and mix easily without causing suspicion.
This has happened, so i expect you to stand by your promise.
I might need a bit more convincing, but if cooperation were to become widespread it would be a big step forward for everyone. Sorry, but it's not the impression I have at the moment, though.
What do you mean by this Sultan? Are you talking mostly in terms of economic prosperity and prospects in developing countries? Or the perception of the west as a 'cruscading' force? Or in terms of western governments supporting horrific dictators and regimes (eg. Saudi Arabia, Saddam Hussein etc.)?
I can see all these points, but think we need to be careful not to place the blame fully at our own policies rather than the individuals themselves.
At the moment nothing is clear so we do have to wait for the facts to reveal themselves.
However, I believe some eye witness accounts have stated that some of the attackers had been talking about mistreatment of Muslims within India and the Kashmir situation among other issues. Plus there is the ongoing situation at the Jewish Centre.
Dont forget that there are many Muslims living in India, so it is well possible that these gunmen are both Indian and Muslim (similar to the 7/7 attacks in UK coming from radicalised British Muslim youths).
Plus dont forget that Pakistan and India were once the same country so you will not necessarily be able to tell the difference between someone from Pakistan or India just by looking at them.
There is never any justification for terrorism.
I merely meant terrorist recruiters have an excuse with the present issues we are encountering in the world - Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.
It was on the BBC1 tv news, so I would guess on the rolling world news as well. It's probably just me, but when you see a picture of someone you can often guess correctly where they come from (often wrongly too, of course) and I saw round southern faces rather than the more angular Pakistani/Middle-Eastern.
This is one of the photos - all the eye witness account seems to say the attackers are all young and dressed casually in jeans/tshirts
Yeah, I live in Lancashire, which means my mates are all Gujerati - both muslim and hindu, with the odd sikh thrown in for balance.
I've just seen two images, they seem to remind me of Biharis/east Indians. There was a lot of movement from the Bihar area to Pakistan in 1947, so it's difficult on occasions to tell the difference.
Middle Estern/fghns/Pkistnis hve long thin noses*
* 'a' isn't working.
Or big noses if we're being honest.
* 'a' isn't working.
Or big noses if we're being honest.
its been confirmed that they came from pakistan in boats.
No, they don't. Apparently they've killed a Cypriot multimillionaire with a British passport.
AHMEDABAD:
A fishing trawler that went missing on November 14 may have carried the terrorists to Colaba coast to hold Mumbai hostage on Wednesday, police sources told Times Of India.
This boat - Kuber - belongs to a fisherman from Porbander, Vinod Masani, who has been detained by Porbander police for interrogation. Indian Coast Guard spotted the boat with the body of captain Amarsing Naran, 30, in it. Four crew from Navsari and Junagadh districts are still missing. The Coast Guard is also looking for another missing boat which could have been used by terrorists.
It is suspected that this trawler was captured by the terrorists on high seas to be used as their transport vehicle to reach Gateway of India from Karachi port.
Sources in Porbander confirmed that the boat was traced by a Chetak helicopter of Mumbai Coast Guard some 20 nautical miles off Porbander.
This boat had set sail for Jakhau in Kutch near India-Pakistan border for fishing on November 14. Usually these boats return from fishing within 10 days but this one did not. The fisheries department was alerted about this on November 24. Kuber, with a 118 HP marine engine, had five crew members on board. It has a maximum speed of seven to eight nautical miles per hour. The boat is 45x15x11 feet in size and costs Rs 30 lakh. It can carry up to 20 tonnes.
Porbander district headquarters' Coast Guard is interrogating Vinod Masani and his brother Hiralal, who has the power of attorney for the boat. It is also suspected that the Pakistan Marine Agency helped the terrorists hijack the trawler. The missing crew include Balwant Prabhu, 45, Mukesh Rathod, 20, and Natu Nanu, 20, of Navsari and Ramesh Nagji, 37, of Junagadh.
Porbander SP Dipankar Trivedi said, "We are in the process of interrogating some people.'' The suspicion is that terrorists used the trawler to reach Mumbai's marine borders and then used two inflatable boats to reach Colaba.
Junagadh IG I M Desai said, "We have no confirmed information, but know about a fishing boat from Porbander that was missing.''
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...orbander_fishing_boat/articleshow/3766632.cms
there's no link...i heard it on the news.
apparently they came from a bigger boat from karachi then hopped on a indian shipping boat or something and killed all the crew except the 'captain' who was told to take them to mumbai then when they reached they killed him also. Then they got on there inflatable little boats and spread across mumbai.
Plus the army recovered a bag in which they had credit cards with there names and those 'visa' cards had there pictures also and they recovered a mobile phone which was receiving phone calls and number's which were calling the mobile phone were from pakistan.
apparently they came from a bigger boat from karachi then hopped on a indian shipping boat or something and killed all the crew except the 'captain' who was told to take them to mumbai then when they reached they killed him also. Then they got on there inflatable little boats and spread across mumbai.
Plus the army recovered a bag in which they had credit cards with there names and those 'visa' cards had there pictures also and they recovered a mobile phone which was receiving phone calls and number's which were calling the mobile phone were from pakistan.
In its search to find the 'mother ship' of the terrorists who have attacked Mumbai, India on Thursday apprehended two Pakistani merchant vessels off the coast of Gujarat in a joint operation carried out by the Navy, Coast Guard and the water wing of the Border Security Force (BSF).
"We have apprehended two cargo ships in a joint operation near the Gujarat coast while they were sailing to Karachi. They are suspected to be the ships that ferried the terrorists near to Mumbai coast yesterday," Home Ministry sources told PTI in the Capital.
The three sea-guarding forces were put on a high alert after intelligence agencies gave inputs about a merchant vessel, suspected to be involved in the terror attacks on Mumbai since Wednesday, trying to move towards Karachi in Pakistan.
The forces were, in fact, conducting their routine joint exercises in the general area of the Gujarat coast when they received the intelligence inputs and they immediately diverted their assets for searching the run-away merchant vessel.
"In the evening, Indian ships sighted two ships including the one about which intelligence agencies had given a tip-off," Home Ministry sources said.
The Indian ships apprehended both the cargo ships, which were identified as MV Alpha and MV Al Kabir. Officers of the three forces were ascertaining the credentials of the crew on board the two ships, sources added.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Story...l&&Headline=Two+Pakistani+vessels+apprehended
"We have apprehended two cargo ships in a joint operation near the Gujarat coast while they were sailing to Karachi. They are suspected to be the ships that ferried the terrorists near to Mumbai coast yesterday," Home Ministry sources told PTI in the Capital.
The three sea-guarding forces were put on a high alert after intelligence agencies gave inputs about a merchant vessel, suspected to be involved in the terror attacks on Mumbai since Wednesday, trying to move towards Karachi in Pakistan.
The forces were, in fact, conducting their routine joint exercises in the general area of the Gujarat coast when they received the intelligence inputs and they immediately diverted their assets for searching the run-away merchant vessel.
"In the evening, Indian ships sighted two ships including the one about which intelligence agencies had given a tip-off," Home Ministry sources said.
The Indian ships apprehended both the cargo ships, which were identified as MV Alpha and MV Al Kabir. Officers of the three forces were ascertaining the credentials of the crew on board the two ships, sources added.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Story...l&&Headline=Two+Pakistani+vessels+apprehended
Even if they launched the assault from Pakistani registered ships or had abckers in the country, it is also likely that there are domestic elements within Inida who played a role.
I believe the manager fo the Taj has said that the way the attackers moved around the hotel was pretty precise, he hinting at prior knowledge, they either stayed or worked there beforehand perhaps.
And Pskistani sourced or not, this was you would not think, planned in a street cafe. We can't just fire some cruise missiles and be done with it as VidaRed siad earlier as i recall.
I believe the manager fo the Taj has said that the way the attackers moved around the hotel was pretty precise, he hinting at prior knowledge, they either stayed or worked there beforehand perhaps.
And Pskistani sourced or not, this was you would not think, planned in a street cafe. We can't just fire some cruise missiles and be done with it as VidaRed siad earlier as i recall.
even you could have got the blueprints of the hotel by bribing someone. with a decent amount of money you can get anything in india.
There's nothing like having been there before, this goes for anit-terrorism personnel or the terrorist themselves. It would hardly be surpising and if they were off the radar as a group and individuals [all the more so if some were domestic], no-one would know the potential danger. It would make sense in many ways, what countless other terrorists have done as prep in the past.
I heard about this this morning.
Terrible. Fecking terrorists. I'm so sick of fundamentalist...well anything, but in this case religion. God damnit all.
I'm really at a loss for words.
Terrible. Fecking terrorists. I'm so sick of fundamentalist...well anything, but in this case religion. God damnit all.
I'm really at a loss for words.
The security was not armed with sophisticated weapons. Terrorists open fired on these security personnels before entering the hotels.
*** this true, that the Indian FM has said that the country will deal with the problem of terrorism without the help of others?
Could just be a front i suppose, better than than denial.
Could just be a front i suppose, better than than denial.