Scores die in Israeli air strikes

That is the point at which you make peace settle for the best deal the victor offers and try to build a new better future. First step accept defeat because take the names off the combatants and it looks like one side won and the other lost but can't accept it. I am not saying right or wrong, or just. For there to be a Marshal plan there has to be a peace settlement.

In a democracy you only mandate someone to represent you. You do not get anything else for that. If that representative speaks badly for you or runs things badly then the electorate suffers for it.

:lol::lol::lol: What I meant was that Palestinians can’t win over the Israeli public opinion. The situation is not hopeless at all for the Palestinians. Israel may have the upper hand right now, but the status quo could change very quickly should Iran go nuclear or a country like Saudi Arabia or Egypt organize themselves better militarily and economically then the Palestinians would have a very strong ally in the region. To talk about victors and losers is a bit premature. I don’t think anyone in the Middle East would accept a peace deal dictated by one side.

And I dont know what the Marshall Plan has to do with any of this :confused:
 
Utterly horrible.

'Freedom fighting' my arse.
Exactly. These Hamas like folk are the type people don't want Israel to defend itself against. I think some people on here need to experience living under the threat of terrorism perpetuated by "freedom fighters" and experience witnessing a few deaths because of it, up close and personal, to get where the Isreali's are coming from in this conflict.
 
Hamas are a democratically elected terrorist organization, their political wing winning the mandate dosent really count them as a political party or making them less tainted to any extent. If people elect any stained organization to power then they should face the repurcussion. In retrospect US governments designated by their populace, groomed Bin Laden and its eventually ended up killing their civilians in 9/11, we Indians voted an impotent government to power and it led to a string of low level terrorist attacks across the country that finally culminated in the Mumbai massacre.

As for some regular Labobs around here trying to pick up some clever debates by counting corpses, the problem is more astronomical than Israel blowing out few Hamas installations or vice versa. Like in the Mumbai attacks the alleged freedom fighters from Pakistan in an ideal world shouldn't have had any apparent reasons to grab a jewish couple, cut the eyes, ears and nose out of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, broke his legs and then smashing his face with bullets, torturing his pregnant missus for hours, stripping her, smashing her abdomen constantly and finally shooting between her legs, killing their children- it all sums up the brutal abhorrence of Jihad’s around the world who have turned on against Israel as whole , even those Mossad agents who received the corpses stated another holocaust is on the reckoning. Doubt any human rights organization or any Islamic nation had the guts or time to condemn these viciousness then, as the damage is usually guaged on the media barking out some sensational report on death counts.

The state sponsored terrorism by the pan arab league or any other Islamic nation cannot be eradicated unless the guilty states are made to pay a prohibitive price. STASI the east german intelligence was behind terrorism in the western europe and it continued as long as communism lasted there. Syria and Libya were playing the same cards and only a strong reply from the US forced them to revert back. The problem in the middle east is more cancerous than 1.5 million people fighting over a tiny strip of land, would not evaporate even if an independent state of Palestine is created. Israel have every right to hit back and as long as they allow humanitarian aid and basic amnities to flow across the gaza strip, they shouldn't be blamed.
Really going off topic. Hamas don't have an International agenda. Their sole aim is to free their people from oppression. Nothing more, nothing less. Whats going on in India has nothing to do with the palestinian people.

As for collective punishment it never works.
 
A persons religion is not a good reason. Its just plain old fashioned anti-semitism.

If you want to boycott Google, theres better reasons.....compliance with Chinese repression maybe.

The post was not serious; it was made in jest.
 
How about you read up on something called the Marshall Plan. Then maybe you'd realise how misguided your comparison is.

I didn't bring the Marshall plan into this you did. It is up to you to explain why, I only make the point that the Marshall plan came after the comprehensive defeat of Germany and the acceptance of that fact.

My thinking/advice being, I admit controversial, in that I advocate complete surrender to Israel's goals because pinning your hopes on a positive outcome of a nuclear Iran is the type of thinking which got everyone into this mess in the first place.
 
Really going off topic. Hamas don't have an International agenda. Their sole aim is to free their people from oppression. Nothing more, nothing less. Whats going on in India has nothing to do with the palestinian people.

As for collective punishment it never works.

Thats really a news! Dont see any reason why a Pakistani terrorist organization should target Israelis, Yanks and Brits for no reasons with Indian Security forces being their only enemy- yet they are doing the same for the last twenty years. As for these Islamic terrorists all are stitched from the same cloth, in their doctorine Americans and Brits are the crusadors aligning with Zionists and Hindus and apparently all become their common enemy.

If not for Palestine why should Muslims around the world are having a go at Israel (I fear now this argument is running around in circles same topic discussed before couple of pages back). Say for example Indonesian Muslims have their hands full in their domestic problems for them to organize mass rally against jews, its apparent they dont bother going bonkers over every other human right violation that happens across the globe.

All these terrorist groups stick to a particular belief that Muslims must hate kafirs al-wala wa-l-bara ...love and hate for the sake of Allah. That doctorine directs them to associate with Muslims and disassociate with non Muslims. Muslims love Muslims and hate non-Muslims. For the radical muslims its their mantra to join hands for some preceived injustices.

Collective punishment has obviously worked in cases of all state sponsored terrorism, especially after World war II.
 
Thats really a news! Dont see any reason why a Pakistani terrorist organization should target Israelis, Yanks and Brits for no reasons with Indian Security forces being their only enemy- yet they are doing the same for the last twenty years. As for these Islamic terrorists all are stitched from the same cloth, in their doctorine Americans and Brits are the crusadors aligning with Zionists and Hindus and apparently all become their common enemies.

If not for Palestine why should Muslims around the world are having a go at Israel (I fear now this argument is running around in circles same topic discussed before couple of pages back). Say for example Indonesian Muslims have their hands full in their domestic problems for them to organize mass rally against jews, its apparent they dont bother going bonkers over every other human right violation that happens across the globe.

All these terrorist groups stick to a particular belief that Muslims must hate kafirs al-wala wa-l-bara ...love and hate for the sake of Allah. That doctorine directs them to associate with Muslims and disassociate with non Muslims. Muslims love Muslims and hate non-Muslims. For the radical muslims its their mantra to join hands for some preceived injustices.

Collective punishment has obviously worked in cases of all state sponsored terrorism, especially after World war II.

Didn't the British use collective punishment in India during the uprising? To blame the Palestinians for what happened in Mumbai is very ignorant and irrational. I guess that the misconception that all Muslims/Arabs are mindless terrorist is prevalent in the media today and unfortunately people are using this myth to facilitate their own agenda.

This thread is really going off topic. If you want to talk about what happened in mumbai then maybe you should start another thread.
 
I didn't bring the Marshall plan into this you did. It is up to you to explain why, I only make the point that the Marshall plan came after the comprehensive defeat of Germany and the acceptance of that fact.

My thinking/advice being, I admit controversial, in that I advocate complete surrender to Israel's goals because pinning your hopes on a positive outcome of a nuclear Iran is the type of thinking which got everyone into this mess in the first place.

:lol: You are taking my coments out of context. It was you who started to compare post war Europe to the Middle-East.

"It's better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees!" Emiliano Zapata. I think this is true of all mankind. We all want to live in freedom and security. No one is pinning their hopes on Iran, i was just trying to point out that the situation could change very quickly. Israel will not be the major force in the region forever.
 
Mmmm. Lots of parents dying and little kids being injured. I wonder what they'll grow up to be? Dentists? Teachers? Nope. More terrorists.

What an epic victory.
 
Mmmm. Lots of parents dying and little kids being injured. I wonder what they'll grow up to be? Dentists? Teachers? Nope. More terrorists.

What an epic victory.

Remind me again - exactly how many Jewsih suicide bombers blew up German restaurants?
 
Remind me again - exactly how many Jewsih suicide bombers blew up German restaurants?

Terrorism greatly helped Israel come into existence.
 
Didn't the British use collective punishment in India during the uprising? To blame the Palestinians for what happened in Mumbai is very ignorant and irrational.

Uprising in India against British was all about unarmed resistence, cannot understand how you can equate it with terrorism. Even armed resistence sounds okay as long as it affects only the military targets.

Did any one ever blame Palestinians for the Mumbai debacle?

Care to elaborate?


I guess that the misconception that all Muslims/Arabs are mindless terrorist is prevalent in the media today and unfortunately people are using this myth to facilitate their own agenda.

This thread is really going off topic. If you want to talk about what happened in mumbai then maybe you should start another thread.


The problem here is many here including you have a tunnel vision the chaos in middle east is related to a just a million and half people trapped on an isolated land mass, but choose to ignore the fact that radical muslim factions all over the world have latched on to that long back and Jews might end up countering another holocaust, even if they slip down even by a yard. Whether you accept it or not the struggle for an independent Palestine is equated up there with the worst of radical Jihadi factions for all unfortunate reasons.

The thread on Mumbai attacks are already in this forum, no sane person would ever imagine all Muslims/Arabs are mindless forget about posting it here ...may be I am getting a knee jerk reaction from a muslim not able to grasp the point!
 
:lol: You are taking my coments out of context. It was you who started to compare post war Europe to the Middle-East.

"It's better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees!" Emiliano Zapata. I think this is true of all mankind. We all want to live in freedom and security. No one is pinning their hopes on Iran, i was just trying to point out that the situation could change very quickly. Israel will not be the major force in the region forever.

If you eat the food, drink the water your enemy permits and live on handouts from nations you despise. This is living on your knees. How is the dying on your feet plan working? If it includes your children dying in their beds I suggest going to plan B.I don't think waiting Israel out is working either. Which is why I contrast Europe post war with Israel/Palestine?
 
Good insult.

Clearly it's lost on you - as is the entire point.

It was not an insult, it was a comment on your stupid point. An insult would have been more like, "Dear fecking idiot, your analogy is shit."

It was shit and it remains shit.

No point lost here, just hoping for a better analogy. Try again.
 
Put it this way - Saudi Arabia turns out more graduates in Islamic studies than in dentistry, medicine or engineering and thats without them being bombed by Israel.
 
Put it this way - Saudi Arabia turns out more graduates in Islamic studies than in dentistry, medicine or engineering and thats without them being bombed by Israel.

Is that really true? It can't be surely?
 
Is that really true? It can't be surely?

Understandably many of Saudis go abroad because of the standard of education on offer. However Saudi Arabia is waking up and starting to invest in education.

"Entering a new era of rapid development of the country's infrastructure and economy in the early 1970s, Saudi Arabia devoted special attention to fostering higher education. Established in 1975, the Ministry of Higher Education embarked on a long-term master plan to enable the Saudi educational system to provide the highly trained manpower necessary to run the country's increasingly sophisticated economy.

One of the first objectives was to establish new institutes of higher education throughout the country and expand existing ones. By 1999, there were eight major universities and a large number of other institutions of higher education. By 2003, there were also several private institutes of higher education, with more planned. Another objective was to establish undergraduate and postgraduate programs in most disciplines at Saudi universities and colleges. As a result, Saudi students can now obtain degrees in almost any field within the country and, only if necessary, pursue specializations abroad.

In 1993, the late King Fahd, who had always been closely associated with the development of education in Saudi Arabia, introduced new provisions for the Higher Education Council and the University System, with the objective of further improving the efficiency of Saudi universities by offering programs in new fields, encouraging greater cooperation among Saudi institutes of higher learning and increasing involvement of the teaching staff in the operations of faculties.

By the 2003-04 academic year, there were around 200,000 students at Saudi universities and colleges, a dramatic improvement over the 7,000 students enrolled in 1970. Of that number, more than one half are female students studying at the five universities - King Saud, King Abdulaziz, King Faisal, Imam Muhammad bin Saud and Umm Al-Qura - that accept both male and female students, and also at the numerous colleges set up exclusively for women.

King Saud University
The oldest university in the country is King Saud University in Riyadh. When it first opened in 1957, there were only nine instructors teaching 21 students. The university now accommodates around 25,000 students in its faculties of art, science, commerce, engineering, agriculture, medicine, dentistry, nursing, education, computer science and information science. It offers doctorate programs in many fields and is particularly noted for its schools of engineering and medicine.

Islamic University
The Islamic University at Madinah, founded in 1961, serves as a center for Islamic studies and for teaching Islamic culture. It also offers programs in Arabic literature and the arts and the sciences. Its graduates include non-Saudis from 105 countries. Imam Muhammad bin Saud University in Riyadh and Umm Al-Qura University in Makkah, awarded university status in 1974 and 1981 respectively, offer programs in the various arts and sciences, including engineering, architecture, science and technology and education, although both are highly regarded primarily for their Islamic law, history and Arabic literature. Imam Muhammad bin Saud University has branches in the United States, Japan, Indonesia, Mauritania, Djibouti and the United Arab Emirates offering programs in Islamic and Arabic studies.

King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals
The King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, founded in Dhahran in the Eastern Province in 1963, is considered to be on a par with the best in the world, offering programs in the modern sciences, including engineering, mathematical sciences, finance, economics and management and marketing. Its research institute conducts studies in a variety of fields, notably in petroleum technology and environmental issues.

King Abdulaziz University
King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah was founded privately in 1967 by a group of Saudi businessmen who understood the importance of education in national development. The university developed so rapidly that in 1971, the founders petitioned the government to assume responsibility for its operation. Since then it has expanded considerably and is now the largest of the Kingdom's universities, with over 42,000 students enrolled in undergraduate and graduate programs in various fields of study.

King Faisal University
The Eastern Province's King Faisal University, with two campuses in Dammam and Hofuf, offers a range of programs, including medicine, administrative science, and architecture and urban planning. Founded in 1975, the university is famous for its outstanding agricultural and veterinary sciences programs. It has educational and experimental farms in Hofuf and conducts advanced research in agriculture and animal husbandry.

King Khalid University
The most recent of the public universities is King Khalid University in Abha, in Asir Province, which opened in 1998 with five faculties of Education, Medicine, Islamic Law and Fundamentals of Religion, Arabic, and Administrative Studies

To complement their studies in universities in the Kingdom, Saudi students have the opportunity to pursue graduate and postgraduate degrees in specialized fields abroad. Supported by government scholarships, thousands of Saudi students are enrolled in universities outside the Kingdom, mainly in the United States.

One institution that has been instrumental in the development of higher education in Saudi Arabia is the King Abdulaziz City for Science and Technology. Dedicated to research in various fields, including education, it helps formulate the national policy for the development of science and technology, conducts applied scientific research and assists the private sector in research and development."
 
Put it this way - Saudi Arabia turns out more graduates in Islamic studies than in dentistry, medicine or engineering and thats without them being bombed by Israel.

What's that got to do with Israel, and the Gaza?
 
Is that really true? It can't be surely?

He's wrong, most of these terrorists are properly educated individuals from a reasonably rich background. It holds good only for a shattered economy like Pakistan where you can cite unemployment and poverty as the reason for youngsters to turn themselves in to Jihadis.
 
He's wrong, most of these terrorists are properly educated individuals from a reasonably rich background. It holds good only for a shattered economy like Pakistan where you can cite unemployment and poverty as the reason for youngsters to turn themselves in to Jihadis.

Yes, he wasn't suggesting it was linked to terrorism, just pointing out how messed up some countries priorities are. Education is everything.
 
Understandably many of Saudis go abroad because of the standard of education on offer. However Saudi Arabia is waking up and starting to invest in education.

That's good then. Hopefully Saudi can change quite substantially in the next few decades. An interesting side-track.
 
All these terrorist groups stick to a particular belief that Muslims must hate kafirs al-wala wa-l-bara ...love and hate for the sake of Allah. That doctorine directs them to associate with Muslims and disassociate with non Muslims. Muslims love Muslims and hate non-Muslims. For the radical muslims its their mantra to join hands for some preceived injustices.

Collective punishment has obviously worked in cases of all state sponsored terrorism, especially after World war II.

I don't hate you, I think you're an idiot but I don't hate you
 
Wafa Sultan is a massive Islamophobe. No surprises she is Fearful's hero.

Wafa Sultan describes herself a Muslim, but insists that "I don't even believe in Islam". No surprise there, it's more profitable to bash Islam while still claiming to be a Muslim.
 
Hamas has held several ceasefires and has repeatedly said they'll agree to a 2 state solution, they can be talked to, Israel is not interested because it does not want a free state in Gaza

Question for you--you seem to interpret all Israeli action as the evil, greedy desire to seemingly grab Gaza for itself or keep Gazans a little bit above starvation--what is the reason you think Israel doesn't want a free state in Gaza? They seem quite happy with Fatah in the West Bank and vice versa.

Somehow your interpretation that Hamas has a desire for peace even though their explicitly stated goal is the total annihilation of Israel seems much more lenient than your interpretation of Israeli motives. Or is it just me?
 
Question for you--you seem to interpret all Israeli action as the evil, greedy desire to seemingly grab Gaza for itself or keep Gazans a little bit above starvation--what is the reason you think Israel doesn't want a free state in Gaza? They seem quite happy with Fatah in the West Bank and vice versa.

Somehow your interpretation that Hamas has a desire for peace even though their explicitly stated goal is the total annihilation of Israel seems much more lenient than your interpretation of Israeli motives. Or is it just me?

At the two extremes you seem to have Mozza and Fearless, and as ever the truth probably lies in a nuanced area somewhere in between.
 
Question for you--you seem to interpret all Israeli action as the evil, greedy desire to seemingly grab Gaza for itself or keep Gazans a little bit above starvation--what is the reason you think Israel doesn't want a free state in Gaza? They seem quite happy with Fatah in the West Bank and vice versa.

Somehow your interpretation that Hamas has a desire for peace even though they say their goal is the total annihilation of Israel seems much more lenient than your interpretation of Israeli motives. Or is it just me?

They are not interested in grabbing Gaza, they will not build settlements there again, but they have no desire to see a free state next to Israel regardless of who is in charge of the Gaza strip or the West Bank.

Israel deals with Fatah because they are not Hamas, when Fatah were the dominant force under Arafat Israel called them an obstacle to peace, Israel is not interested in a fair peace deal so it'll keep the obstacles to peace changing so they can build the settlements and keep the Palestinians under control.
 
Question for you--you seem to interpret all Israeli action as the evil, greedy desire to seemingly grab Gaza for itself or keep Gazans a little bit above starvation--what is the reason you think Israel doesn't want a free state in Gaza? They seem quite happy with Fatah in the West Bank and vice versa.

Somehow your interpretation that Hamas has a desire for peace even though their explicitly stated goal is the total annihilation of Israel seems much more lenient than your interpretation of Israeli motives. Or is it just me?

The Israelis' would have a civil war on their hands trying to move hundreds of thousands of right wing settlers from occupied land. I doubt even the IDF would have the will to forcibly remove them.

Palestinians are no fools when they do not believe the two state solution will never happen. They are right. Every excuse is used put off the negotiations, meanwhile extending its land grab.
 
At the two extremes you seem to have Mozza and Fearless, and as ever the truth probably lies in a nuanced area somewhere in between.

I support a 2 state solution with the Palestinians controlling the West bank and Gaza strip, no settlements are to remain, the Palestinians should have full sovereignty over their borders, air and sea space, a compensation package to be worked out for the refugees in exchange for waving the right of return and join sovereignty over Jerusalem. There would also need to be built a travel corridor between the two halves of the Palestinian state

Fearless proposes ethnic cleansing
 
They are not interested in grabbing Gaza, they will not build settlements there again, but they have no desire to see a free state next to Israel regardless of who is in charge of the Gaza strip or the West Bank.

Israel deals with Fatah because they are not Hamas, when Fatah were the dominant force under Arafat Israel called them an obstacle to peace, Israel is not interested in a fair peace deal so it'll keep the obstacles to peace changing so they can build the settlements and keep the Palestinians under control.

To some extent its true but Fatah were then a bigger bottleneck than the current Hamas. Its unfortunate the so called leadership splinter groups erupting from them always have extremist ideologies for Israel to take them in to confidence. Nonetheless, Israel should've also done a lot better to melt the fuse.
 
I support a 2 state solution with the Palestinians controlling the West bank and Gaza strip, no settlements are to remain, the Palestinians should have full sovereignty over their borders, air and sea space, a compensation package to be worked out for the refugees in exchange for waving the right of return and join sovereignty over Jerusalem. There would also need to be built a travel corridor between the two halves of the Palestinian state

Fearless proposes ethnic cleansing

Ontop of that, Israel to pull out of Lebanese land if they wish to appease all sides.