And the hats
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
- Thread starter IhabX7
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
And the hats
Don't Arabs feel superior to other Muslims? I've heard this from many people. A non Arab-Muslim work colleague of mine, divorced his Moroccan wife, because she thought she was superior(one the many reasons). Although, I did point out to him that Moroccans are mainly of Berber origin and just like everyone outside of Southern Arabian peninsula have been Arabised. But I reckon this happens in most cultures/groups. Aren't us Mancunians superior to the rest?
The shit that some people need to go through before the orthodox Beit Din approves their convesion is ridiculous. The idiots don't understand that their shotting themselves in the foot. I'm not sure what you'd have done if conversion was easier to go through, but as things are your kids won't be considered Jews by the same people who'd give your missus hell had she actually wanted to convert.
And then the rabbies claim the process is meant to keep the integrity of the Jewish people...
They did not fight a genocidal war, as you liked to tell us Jewish people had lived in that region for centuries, they had not been wiped out as various people conquered the area, this was just another war in the region.
You are interested in changing their nationality, supposedly they are Israeli citizens and as such have the same rights as the Jewish people of Israel, you like to talk that up but you don't believe it yourself.
I don't want to sound too confrontational, but I disagree with several of your points. For one thing, nearly every culture on earth can be labeled "macho" in one way or another, so saying that Arabs and Israelis fit that bill doesn't really tell us much. As for the desperate poverty, I'm not buying that either as a causal factor. When Israel was founded, every country in the region was rather poor, although there was little contact with richer nations and thus little reason to feel envious or inferior in comparison. The region stayed damned poor for a long time, and it is only the oil wealth in Arab countries and the recent development of a modern economy in Israel that has brought about any contrast between rich and poor. But the seemingly endless nature of the conflict long predates those developments.
As for the large number of unemployed men, again,m this is true now (and does contribute to the problem, definitely), but was not always such. At the time of the 1967 war, for example, Saudi Arabia's population was one-fifth what it is today, and growth in other Arab states was just beginning to take off. And yet, the seemingly endless nature of the conflict was well established, anmd could easily have gone on even without the massive population growth in the region. Anyway, you're right about all these things making it worse, but this conflict was destined to go the distance long before these conditions came into being.
Not-So-Fun fact: At the end of the Second World War, Syria's per capita income was roughly equal to South Korea's. Today it's about a fifth as much.
I think we're talking about two different things, Chris. My fault for using the term Arab-Israeli rather than Palestinian-Israeli.
One is the conflict between Israel and other states. I think the main reason this has been so prolonged is that on the one hand, until the recent growth of strong Islamist movements in Sunni states across the region, the ruling classes in those states have found a hostile alien state and a dispossessed Arab population, useful in creating distraction from their own tyranny, a kind of populist pressure valve, and regional leverage. And on the other hand, Israel won the biggest wars and became so strong militarily that it never felt the need to take the lead in making concessions - though it showed with Sadat that it could do so if others made the running.
What I was trying to explain is why the Palestinians themselves have never given up their struggle, even when, as Ismail Haniyeh himself puts it, "Does someone believe we can use guns to destroy a state that has F-16s and 200 nuclear warheads?" It's true that there are lots of poor dispossessed peoples, and most of them eventually settle for what they've got and build new lives as best they can. If you look at the end of WWII, untold millions of displaced people did so - Germans from Slavic states, Japanese from Manchuria, and of course Jews from Europe (clearly mass emigration to Palestine only came in response to incessant pogroms - given the choice, and theology notwithstanding, most Jews would have preferred to stay in the countries where they'd found homes for centuries.)
You're also right that lots of cultures are macho - including much of Israeli culture. What I'm talking about though is specifically the culture of honour, where death is seen as preferable to shame. My feeling is that it's this, in combination with the poverty, cynical use by both Israel and Arab states, and the highly complex and factionalised tribal structure of society on the Levant that makes visionary leadership difficult, which has kept the Palestinians fighting for their homeland. Not any one of those things alone.
I don't agree that the population of the area didn't come into contact with richer peoples - not only had they been trading across the Mediterranean for centuries, but they were occupied by the Ottomans and then the British. I also don't understand how 'the seemingly endless nature of the conflict' can 'predate these developments' - it's only in the perspective of the present that the conflict can be called 'seemingly endless'.
I share your (alleged) support of a two-state solution. One of those states needs to be a Jewish state, and Israeli Arabs oppose the idea. I think any future settlement should see as many of them as possible ending up citizens of the future Palestinian state without moving any of them out of their homes. They identify themselves as Palestinians first and foremost, and being citizens of the first ever independent Palestinian state should be within their interests surely.
Is it racist/discriminatory/whatever to say that Jewish sense of humour is a few dozen sideral years better than Islamic sense of humour?
Or I just don't know enough?
Not that this justifies bombing on families, mind.
Hehe. Reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld complaining that his dentist converted to Judaism just for the jokes.
And this offends you as a Jew?
I don't think there's any such thing as an Islamic sense of humour, though there is probably such a thing as a broad Arabic sense of humour, Turkish sense of humour, Persian sense of humour etc.
In my experience too the Israeli sense of humour is a bit different from mainstream Jewish humour, probably because Israeli Jews deliberately purged themselves of Yiddish, which was the great reservoir of Ashkenazi culture and formed the rhythms of American Jewish humour. Israeli humour, oddly, reminds me more of non-Jewish Eastern European and Russian humour - very black and dead-pan.
I think the general rule of thumb with cultural stereotypes is that it's okay to say nice things about groups but not okay to say nasty things about them. So you can say the Jews (and the English, Scots, Irish in their different ways) are good at comedy, or black people are good dancers, but not that Jews are tight etc. Black cock-size occupies an uneasy middle ground, as it's ostensibly complimentary but probably bestializing by the back door...as it were. The rule of thumb doesn't make much sense logically but it's all about keeping the peace innit.
That was quite a humourless response wasn't it. I'll twat myself with an anvil to make up for it.
I think you're a cock. How's that for Israeli type humour?
All very reasonable points in your post, although I disagree with the last bit. It's true, twenty years after the founding of Israel, the ongoing hostilities could not have been described yet as "seemingly endless". But all the ingredients were there for it to be so, even without the economic and demographic changes that have come over the past 40 years. However it's possible that we're talking past each other again here, and don't actually disagree. Or that I simply misunderstood.
Iranian people aren't very funny. That said Omid Jalali's the only comic of Iranian origin that I know of.
And not just for that.
Probably the most enlightening travel I’ve ever made was the one I made to Israel a few years ago and whatever opinion one can have of the Middle East conflict, the rights and wrongs, one has got to admit that these people know their business.
I believe that if we could go beyond this conflict, we’d have to admit that Jews are tough and brilliant, a huge resource for the world, a great “group of people”, if “race” sounds too, well, racist.
I respect and admire them, not just for the humour, but above all for what they had to endure (something we too often tend to forget, or even ignore) and what they’ve been able to achieve. Sometimes I feel like I should apologize to them too, just for being a goy. Visiting certain areas and/or museums of Israel makes you feel like a little turd.
As someone said, and this being an internet forum, this will put me in the 100% anti-Palestinian front (not true, of course), but however utterly off-topic, I wanted to write this.
A money transfer on my account will be fine, HLred.
That Ahmedinejad guy is also quite good
Jerry: I think my dentist converted to Judaism...just for the jokes.
Catholic Priest: And this offends you as a Jew?
Jerry: No, it offends me as a comedian!
Funnier than that bitch Livni.
Anyways, seems the terrorists that are Israel have stepped up their illegal bombing campaign.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809699.stm
Not sure about the bitch part, but she certainly isn't very funny. Being an Israeli she is illegal too.
I'm perfectly balanced, thank you.
And I was referring to political and social issues that make you feel that way, more than to religion.
But I'm sure you know what I meant.
Significant artilery bombardment along the border reportedly underway, the much talked about ground incursion by the IDF could be immimnent. With Sarkozy as well as various Foreign Ministers expected in the region in a matter of days, they had to move sooner or later if it was their intent.
ground assault started
IDF ground forces are going in.
Not religious myself, but may god be with all those who didn't want this shit to happen...Israelis and Palestinians alike.
Not religious myself, but may god be with all those who didn't want this shit to happen...Israelis and Palestinians alike.
I am going to stick my neck out, cos I am soo appauled and say: Israel is the hub/reason of all trouble in the world IMHO
Tens of thousands Israeli Troops being called up
Are you are leftie or jihadi?
I am going to stick my neck out and say there's a third option
yep, just a complete outsider: a Hindu British-Indian
So far Palestinian eyewitnesses are saying that the deployment is limited to one column moving into the north of Gaza, with attack helicopters in close support.
Earerlier today, at least 13 people died after Israel hit a mosque during evening prayers.
Earerlier today, at least 13 people died after Israel hit a mosque during evening prayers.
Then you of all people should know better
There have been at least a dozen people were killed when a missile hit a crowded mosque during evening prayers.
I can imagine there will be some very angry young Muslims around the world wanting revenge. This is not going to end well.
I can imagine there will be some very angry young Muslims around the world wanting revenge. This is not going to end well.
10-15 vehicles making up the column apparently, although nigh on 10,000 troops are sitting there waiting.
An Israeli Brigadier has been recently quoted as saying that this will not be a short outing but last many long days.
An Israeli Brigadier has been recently quoted as saying that this will not be a short outing but last many long days.
It also makes their opinion much less biased.
After all, one does not need cancer to analyse its symptoms.
err explain...the sheer arrogance of Israel/US/UK, etc has me riled (although I don't really have anything to do with it)....I think Sultan's reply (below yours) is spot on