That analogy is in no way related to whats happening at present.
Congratulations on that post.
Congratulations on that post.
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
is it only me that has now 'switched off' to what happens there? They will still be maiming each other in another 20 years and we'll still all be talking about it then. They have all the resources, yet make their choice to continue killing each other. The likes of Sudan, Somalia etc, 3rd world countries, little resources, millions of innocents murdered or starving. Thats who deserves the front pages of our media. Not these fecking loons.
Absolutely right
No, it isn't only you. Many people feel that way.
The reason why westerners such as myself are outraged at this particular crisis, is because our nations are not only turning a blind eye, but also backing the Israeli-committed atrocities. I understand that the situation in the likes of Sudan, Somalia the Congo etc is extremely desperate, and I feel for those people donating whatever clothes or money I can spare, but this is due to internal problems.
Lets face it, we (the United Kingdom) and the United States also have blood in our hands in this conflict. Its bad enough seeing my government take our troops to their deaths in a war for feck knows what in Iraq only resulting to further radicalisation (see 7/7 bombings). But now its STILL happening with us turning a blind eye as well as continously supplying the mortars and F-16s that have killed thousands of Palestinians. Instead of agreeing to sit down and use diplomacy to establish two-states in the region, we blindly follow the Americans.
Thats why im concerned and thats why it pisses me off.
1) What the feck does that have to do with anything?
2) You're NOT the small nation. I repeat, you have the FULL backing of the United States regardless of what you do, the EU presidency as well as most of the western world. Even the Egyptians and Turks near your region hold a diplomatic understanding with you. The rest of the nations (possibly with the exception of Iran and Syria) are puppet dictators or corrupt monarchs which will gladly kiss western ass for their own means, and trust me all of them are too cowardly to bother you. If anything, this silly article would apply to the defenceless Palestinians who have to use their home-made devices to fight the 4th strongest military complex in the world.
Sudan, the DRC and Somalia, these are all quite clearly not limited to the respective nations, and the DRC most glaringly it could be said.
I've stayed relatively clear of this thread on account of the petty arguments and side taking and rhetoric that tends to overshadow matters.
Now i do agree that the British response has been a bit lacking, ours and the ider European message has been confused to say the least i think that would be an apt description. I might be wrong but i don't believe that either Labour nor the Tories have in an official capacity used the word "disproportionate" even.
Skimming back over the last page or soi see that some feel that the Israelis are deliberately targeting civilians. I personally reckong that extreme and a leap to suit an agenda. However in an interview with Netanyahu on the BBC last week he used the word "incidental" when discussing the likelihood of casualties among the civilian population of Gaza. It is not so much then that Israel as a state is going out of its way to kill all and sundry but rather a mindset held by all too many, or an institutionalised disregard for their lives. They don't care, so long as the target objective is achieved. Comaprisons could be made with many of the air strikes in Afghanistan that leave wedding parties dead and not columns of Taleban.
The continued use of land and sea based artilery seems at least from afar to be symptomatic of this. Indeed for all the increased criticism of the ground assault in recent days, it could be argued that it is better that, something more close-in and targeted to what we saw earlier on particularly.
But RedKaos, what is it exactly that you want from the British government? In practical terms?
On a bigger scale: to be independent from the United States foreign policy.
In this particular issue: To officially condemn Israel's offensive, to pressurise it to open it borders for an intake of much needed food and medicine for the Gaza civilians, and push it towards a two-state solution. It was the British who essentially established the State of Israel, they are hence burdened with responsibility regarding the region.
You do know those rockets are only about 40 miles now from reaching the nuclear reactor now and the airport. The analysts in israel aern't stupid and neither are the ones in lebanon,syria,iran or gaza. |You havn't seen anything yet this is only a preventative move while the israelies try to find a defense against them. All hell will break lose if either lebanon or gaza are consistently able to fire rockets anywhere near one the those targets.
So long as we're not simply swaping Washington for Brussels, i'd go with that no problem.
As things have played out, yeah.
I'd like to think that we are already doing that, and the rumours surrounding the proposal that was to e put to Hamas as part of the ceasfire did include such a measure i believe.
As things stand currently, our influence in regard to Israel, Syria, Iran is still fairly limited. And Brown lacks the vision as goes foreign policy IMO o expand upon this and come at the problem through a collaboration with Arab countries. Youll notice that despite the Czechs holding the EU Presidency, Sarkozy has still gone outh there.
Although there's no denying we have taken too much of a back seat in recent years.
Im steering clear of this thread. Everyone clearly has their own views including I, and wont budge and thats fair enough so theres no point putting through arguments. Lets just hope that there'll eventually be a solution to this mess, and less suffering endured by both Israelis and Palestinians. God Bless.
I would say all the more reason not to get involved as it would only be taken as colonialist. Besides I am not sure that your history on the creation of Israel is correct nor that even if it was it would still be our responsibility 60 years on.
The fact that the EU is giving millions in aid and by doing so saves tens of thousands of Palestinian lives, sustaining them on a daily basis, never gets mentioned either
Did you know that the British also created a palestinian state in 1922 (reversing on a promise to make all of palestine jewish) and that country is know called Jordan?
This is a sad truth.
What exactly do you mean by that?
Pointless words. We have no leverage. So stop being upset that our powerlessness in this, as in so many things, is exposed.
No we aren't. That ship sailed a long time ago.
I'm done with this circle-Israeli/Gazan-jerk, too.
It is what it is...
And what is it;
On this Monday, the Israeli Terrorist Forces murdered 20 children in the Gaza Strip conflict.
It is what it is...
And what is it;
On this Monday, the Israeli Terrorist Forces murdered 20 children in the Gaza Strip conflict.
Update -
Palestinian sources put the death toll for today at 50, there was not a breakdown on the proportion of Hamas or other such fighters and civilians however.
Also Hamas managed to launch 30 rockets into Israel during the day, no word of any fatalities as far as i am aware.
One bit of anecdotal information for you. A Sky News correspondent said earlier that a member of the IDF was temporarily at least, seized when battling fighters in a tunnel under a house in Gaza City. He did manage to free himself and escape back to Israeli lines [perhaps in part due to the confined spaces that made his initial capture possible].
Aid agencies are reporting that 1,000s of people are reported to have fled their homes as the violence draws closer. Though to what degree of safety and conditions they now live in, we can but guess.
Palestinian sources put the death toll for today at 50, there was not a breakdown on the proportion of Hamas or other such fighters and civilians however.
Also Hamas managed to launch 30 rockets into Israel during the day, no word of any fatalities as far as i am aware.
One bit of anecdotal information for you. A Sky News correspondent said earlier that a member of the IDF was temporarily at least, seized when battling fighters in a tunnel under a house in Gaza City. He did manage to free himself and escape back to Israeli lines [perhaps in part due to the confined spaces that made his initial capture possible].
Aid agencies are reporting that 1,000s of people are reported to have fled their homes as the violence draws closer. Though to what degree of safety and conditions they now live in, we can but guess.
Tuesday so far...
Israeli forces have widened their attacks in the Gaza Strip to include Khan Younis in the south, reports say.
The fresh attack follows heavy fighting overnight near Gaza City in the north.
At least 20 Palestinians were killed on Tuesday and three Israeli soldiers were killed by fire from one of their own tanks in northern Gaza.
Palestinian medical officials say at least 110 people have died since the ground assault began while Israel says it has killed 130 Hamas fighters.
About 560 Palestinians have been killed since Israel moved to end rocket attacks from Gaza 11 days ago, Palestinian medical officials say. The UN says at least 25% of those are civilians.
At least three Palestinians were killed on Tuesday when an Israeli air strike hit a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip, UN officials said.
Other people were killed as Israeli shell-fire and air strikes hit the Gaza coast, Gaza City and Jebaliya refugee camp in the north of the territory.
The reported move by Israeli forces into Khan Younis followed heavy fighting overnight around Gaza City and on the edges of the Deir al-Balah and Bureij refugee camps in central Gaza.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad said their fighters had engaged Israeli soldiers with machine-guns and rockets in Gaza City. Residents reported hearing loud explosions and heavy gunfire.
The Israeli army said three of its soldiers were killed by a shell from an Israeli tank which hit their position.
A fourth Israeli soldier was killed in fighting in the north of the Gaza Strip, military officials said.
Information about what is happening inside Gaza is limited as Israel has barred foreign reporters from entering.
Ceasefire calls
The escalation in fighting comes as international pressure for a ceasefire is growing.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is due to attend a UN Security Council meeting on Tuesday, along with the foreign ministers of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, France and Britain, in an attempt to put pressure on the Security Council to act decisively.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy is in the Middle East trying to gather support for a ceasefire and Czech Foreign Minister Karel Schwarzenberg, whose country holds the EU presidency, is also in the region.
Israeli officials have so far rejected calls for a truce.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said any ceasefire would have to include provisions to prevent Hamas from re-arming in order to prevent future rocket attacks on Israel.
Hamas has said that Israeli attacks on Gaza must stop and the crossings into the territory, which Israel controls, must be fully opened.
'Serious hunger'
Living conditions in Gaza are reported to be deteriorating sharply, with supplies of fuel and food not getting to where they are needed. Many in Gaza are also without running water or electricity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7812979.stm
Read eyewitness accounts from Gaza Strip.
Israeli forces have widened their attacks in the Gaza Strip to include Khan Younis in the south, reports say.
The fresh attack follows heavy fighting overnight near Gaza City in the north.
At least 20 Palestinians were killed on Tuesday and three Israeli soldiers were killed by fire from one of their own tanks in northern Gaza.
Palestinian medical officials say at least 110 people have died since the ground assault began while Israel says it has killed 130 Hamas fighters.
About 560 Palestinians have been killed since Israel moved to end rocket attacks from Gaza 11 days ago, Palestinian medical officials say. The UN says at least 25% of those are civilians.
At least three Palestinians were killed on Tuesday when an Israeli air strike hit a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip, UN officials said.
Other people were killed as Israeli shell-fire and air strikes hit the Gaza coast, Gaza City and Jebaliya refugee camp in the north of the territory.
The reported move by Israeli forces into Khan Younis followed heavy fighting overnight around Gaza City and on the edges of the Deir al-Balah and Bureij refugee camps in central Gaza.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad said their fighters had engaged Israeli soldiers with machine-guns and rockets in Gaza City. Residents reported hearing loud explosions and heavy gunfire.
The Israeli army said three of its soldiers were killed by a shell from an Israeli tank which hit their position.
A fourth Israeli soldier was killed in fighting in the north of the Gaza Strip, military officials said.
Information about what is happening inside Gaza is limited as Israel has barred foreign reporters from entering.
Ceasefire calls
The escalation in fighting comes as international pressure for a ceasefire is growing.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is due to attend a UN Security Council meeting on Tuesday, along with the foreign ministers of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, France and Britain, in an attempt to put pressure on the Security Council to act decisively.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy is in the Middle East trying to gather support for a ceasefire and Czech Foreign Minister Karel Schwarzenberg, whose country holds the EU presidency, is also in the region.
Israeli officials have so far rejected calls for a truce.
A spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said any ceasefire would have to include provisions to prevent Hamas from re-arming in order to prevent future rocket attacks on Israel.
Hamas has said that Israeli attacks on Gaza must stop and the crossings into the territory, which Israel controls, must be fully opened.
'Serious hunger'
Living conditions in Gaza are reported to be deteriorating sharply, with supplies of fuel and food not getting to where they are needed. Many in Gaza are also without running water or electricity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7812979.stm
Read eyewitness accounts from Gaza Strip.
Israeli strike hits outside UN school, 34 dead
Latest AP report:
Tuesday (The second day of reports of women & children being slaughtered)
GAZA CITY, Gaza – An Israeli bombardment hit outside a U.N. school where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge on Tuesday, and Palestinian medics said at least 34 people died — many of them children — as international outrage grew over civilian deaths.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
It is now appropriate to use the term 'genocide'. The international community needs to halt all funding or any form of financial support to Israel.
Latest AP report:
Tuesday (The second day of reports of women & children being slaughtered)
GAZA CITY, Gaza – An Israeli bombardment hit outside a U.N. school where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge on Tuesday, and Palestinian medics said at least 34 people died — many of them children — as international outrage grew over civilian deaths.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
It is now appropriate to use the term 'genocide'. The international community needs to halt all funding or any form of financial support to Israel.
Genocide isn't killing children.
We'll inform the UN and the world community of nations that you've made your decision.
Wikipedia definition... (you chose which of the several aspects of this one sentence apply.)
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
One of the curious things about Terrorism is that they always blame civilian casualties on the Victims themselves.
For example in "Northern Ireland" the IRA would plant bombs that blew people up. They would "graciously" telephone a warning and if people died try and absolve themselves from guilt by saying that the people getting the message got it wrong or the vistims were too slow to get out of the building.
Now I refuse to say anything that would give any aid or comfort to EITHER side in the Middle East. They are both evil war mongerers. And I have no time for either of them.
But I have to comment on the Israeli bombing a school killing at least 30 people.
Somehow in Israeli eyes this is the fault of the victims.
Even the craziest Israeli would have difficulty spinning that one as a very bad case of mass suicide.
For example in "Northern Ireland" the IRA would plant bombs that blew people up. They would "graciously" telephone a warning and if people died try and absolve themselves from guilt by saying that the people getting the message got it wrong or the vistims were too slow to get out of the building.
Now I refuse to say anything that would give any aid or comfort to EITHER side in the Middle East. They are both evil war mongerers. And I have no time for either of them.
But I have to comment on the Israeli bombing a school killing at least 30 people.
Somehow in Israeli eyes this is the fault of the victims.
Even the craziest Israeli would have difficulty spinning that one as a very bad case of mass suicide.
Well, bad as it might sound, if we wanted to do that, there would have been far from than a few hundred dead. So it's not genocide.
By the way, a Hamas rocket landed in a Kindergarten in Ashdod yesterday. Luckily it was empty, and no one was hurt. Of course, nobody gives a f*ck about that.
of course people care, i for one would have been out raged but nothing came of it despite how bad an attack it was whereas kids are actually dying in Israeli air strikes
Without doubt people are dying massively in Gaza at the moment. Are those numbers being confirmed by other independent sources or are they all based on Palestinian sources? Is the international red cross actually working in Gaza right now?!
So as long as we're lucky, it's OK? No great debate of how Hamas is targetting children? We actually need Israeli children to die for people to remember who we are dealing with - A group which has been firing at citizens for eight years?
That's the problem. Most people - here as well - don't have true knowledge of the situation. They haven't been following it thoroughly for years, not to mention living it. They read headlines, they see some difficult pictures, and this is what they base their opinions on.
At the very least, the rocket that landed in the kindergarten is just as bad as the shell that hit the school today. The fact we got lucky (or clever, and just closed every school and kindergarten in the area) should not be the most important thing. In five minutes we might not be lucky.
No one said its OK are you blind or ignorant I said I would have been outraged and clearly stated that i thought it was bad attack.
Israel's retaliation strike seem to be badly co-ordinated as Israel too seem to target citizens with an alarmingly frequent rate.
People are allowed to formulate their own ideas and you do not know how people come to their conclusions on the situation and i do sympathise with you for having to live through the situation my sister is a doctor and has worked on both sides so in order to bring an informed opinion to the table I have my own ideas as well as information from her .
Israel's retaliation strike seem to be badly co-ordinated as Israel too seem to target citizens with an alarmingly frequent rate.
People are allowed to formulate their own ideas and you do not know how people come to their conclusions on the situation and i do sympathise with you for having to live through the situation my sister is a doctor and has worked on both sides so in order to bring an informed opinion to the table I have my own ideas as well as information from her .
Israel targeting civilians deliberately wouldn't make any sense at all at this point. Israel knows exactly that the eyes of the world are turned on them and that the majority of countries disapprove of their military action. Their goal is hardly something like 'ok let's march in, kill 5000 Gazans, and then move out'. They know exactly that every civilian casualty makes it more difficult for them to justify their actions and they are certainly not stupid to risk an even bigger worldwide anti-Israel campaign. It is more plausible that, despite the death of many civilians, they are trying to aim at military targets and that the killing of civilians is not intentional.
Like I said, four Israeli soldiers have died in the last hours because of friendly fire. Did we target them as well? We do not target civillians. However, civillians will be hurt, with Hamas shooting rockets from populated areas, hiding weapons in homes and such.
Regarding what happened today, the IDF claims there was mortar bomb fire from the school. That's all I really know. Hamas is fighting the war from within innocent population. If we don't do anything, they'll just land more rockets on Sderot, Ashkelon and so on. What choice do we have?
Its not genocide by any measure, especially when the word "systematic" comes into play considering an IDF tank shell killed 4 Israeli soldiers. Hardly systematic. A tank shell dropping outside a school is a tragedy but it constitutes not a genocide.
This sort of inflammatory rhetoric doesn't help anyone win arguments. Just entrenches both sides.
By the sound of the Israeli spokesman Mark Regev, I don't believe a fecking word from the Israeli govt.
One might by correct in suspecting that the IDF had set off a bomb in an empty school, to make it appear that Hamas had bombed it, thus offsetting the horrendous pulicity Israel is getting for killing so many civilians.
___________________________
Answer to the question as to whether the numbers have been confirmed by the International Red Cross.
According to CNN, the answer is, yes, the Red Cross have confirmed.
Once, again, I referrence Israeli Spokesman Regev... from moments ago on the BBC
The IDF did targert the United Nations school. The interviewer asked him several times if there were any rules of engagement, concerning civilians... Regev responded with dbl speak saying they were being surgical about the air strikes, but would take out any facility used as a staging area to launch weapons.
Truthfully, there are no rules of engagement with the Israeli terror campaign.
Another very good question from the BBC anchor, 'The ground invasion was intended to hurt Hamas' standing with moderates and hopefully swing the Palestinian people towards the more moderate Fatah, but it has done the complete opposite, wouldn't you agree?'
Regev...' No ', in so many words.
Idiot.
Besides, if we wanted to do that, we'd have to sacrifice a few of our children. We know the world doesn't give a f*ck unless you've got some badly mutulated bodies to show.
That's a load of shit!!!
Someone needs to call a spade a spade for this blood-bath to stop. I mean - Holy feck!! - the IDF are butching children.
When I heard that 20 children were killed, yesterday... I took pause and thought... that would be like my daughter's entire class. Then, today's incident only multiplies that thought by several times what it was yesterday.
I find it disgraceful, this whole thing.
Did they really think that for one minute Israel was going to sit idly by and let them keep firing rockets into their towns.
You'd have thought by now they would have learnt that you do not fcuk with Israel.
Since you are so detached from reality I have to ask you.
Did a jewish kid regularly beat you up in school?
feck your sweetheart?
Shit on the graves of your ancestors?
All I am seeing is total irrational hate here, just how wide is your mustache?
Its disappointing but still predictable to see Israeli "Defence" spokespersons including a woman major (whose name I missed) blame the victims.
Asked on ITN why Israel was attacking civilians in a school, she blamed Hamas and actually said to address the question to Hammas leaders.
Two leaders of Hammas were" in the school" therefore its a legitimate target.
Any civilian deaths are Hammas fault.
Likewise in her view Hammas leaders were walking around Gaza carrying children.
This I am afraid is the language and thinking of the worst kind of terrorist.
How dare Israelis assumea moral high ground.
How dare they presume to think we (the West) are allies in this terrorism.
Let me again emphasise to the apologists on BOTH sides that I find them equally disgusting.
Asked on ITN why Israel was attacking civilians in a school, she blamed Hamas and actually said to address the question to Hammas leaders.
Two leaders of Hammas were" in the school" therefore its a legitimate target.
Any civilian deaths are Hammas fault.
Likewise in her view Hammas leaders were walking around Gaza carrying children.
This I am afraid is the language and thinking of the worst kind of terrorist.
How dare Israelis assumea moral high ground.
How dare they presume to think we (the West) are allies in this terrorism.
Let me again emphasise to the apologists on BOTH sides that I find them equally disgusting.
If Adolf Hitler started chilling out in a school full of children during the later days of WW2 and we knew where he was, we'd send so many fecking bombers to wipe it out you'd think it was night time.
If Osama Bin Laden took refuge in a school and we knew about it, the first tomahawk cruise missiles would be on their way in minutes and the school would be leveled.
What don't you understand about the strategy of Hamas.
Their modus operandi is to attack Israel until Israel HAS to react. They attack from locations that will maximize civilian casualties and even hide in refugee camps apparently.
Hamas WANTS these civilian deaths, it is the only way they can justify themselves. Israel knows this but they seem pretty resolved to simply brutalize Hamas so much it becomes irrelevant.