Scores die in Israeli air strikes

they had this coming? How so? They've been blockaded since 2007, the access of humanitarian organisations was severely restricted to them, and they had this coming?

Read the Siegman article I posted and respond to the point it makes, if anyone it was Israel who precipitated this conflict.

The Siegman article is so biased it borders on the ridiculous. It argues that Israel violated the truce, obviously ignoring the constant rocket fire throughout the period. It's been discussed before in this thread, but I can't blame you for not being able to follow this monsterous thread.

Even Mozza does not ignore those rockets, but argues that "it wasn't Hamas" that fired them or could have prevented others from firing them. I can't decide between Mozza's educated opinion and Siegman's insistance that "Hamas brought to Gaza a level of law and order unknown in recent years".
 
These are not the conclusions of an apologist for Hamas but the opinions of the former head of Mossad and Sharon’s national security adviser, Ephraim Halevy. The Hamas leadership has undergone a change ‘right under our very noses’, Halevy wrote recently in Yedioth Ahronoth, by recognising that ‘its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future.’ It is now ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state within the temporary borders of 1967. Halevy noted that while Hamas has not said how ‘temporary’ those borders would be, ‘they know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their co-operation, they will be obligated to change the rules of the game: they will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.’ In an earlier article, Halevy also pointed out the absurdity of linking Hamas to al-Qaida.

In the eyes of al-Qaida, the members of Hamas are perceived as heretics due to their stated desire to participate, even indirectly, in processes of any understandings or agreements with Israel. [The Hamas political bureau chief, Khaled] Mashal’s declaration diametrically contradicts al-Qaida’s approach, and provides Israel with an opportunity, perhaps a historic one, to leverage it for the better.

Why then are Israel’s leaders so determined to destroy Hamas? Because they believe that its leadership, unlike that of Fatah, cannot be intimidated into accepting a peace accord that establishes a Palestinian ‘state’ made up of territorially disconnected entities over which Israel would be able to retain permanent control. Control of the West Bank has been the unwavering objective of Israel’s military, intelligence and political elites since the end of the Six-Day War.[*] They believe that Hamas would not permit such a cantonisation of Palestinian territory, no matter how long the occupation continues. They may be wrong about Abbas and his superannuated cohorts, but they are entirely right about Hamas.

Middle East observers wonder whether Israel’s assault on Hamas will succeed in destroying the organisation or expelling it from Gaza. This is an irrelevant question. If Israel plans to keep control over any future Palestinian entity, it will never find a Palestinian partner, and even if it succeeds in dismantling Hamas, the movement will in time be replaced by a far more radical Palestinian opposition.

If Barack Obama picks a seasoned Middle East envoy who clings to the idea that outsiders should not present their own proposals for a just and sustainable peace agreement, much less press the parties to accept it, but instead leave them to work out their differences, he will assure a future Palestinian resistance far more extreme than Hamas – one likely to be allied with al-Qaida. For the US, Europe and most of the rest of the world, this would be the worst possible outcome. Perhaps some Israelis, including the settler leadership, believe it would serve their purposes, since it would provide the government with a compelling pretext to hold on to all of Palestine. But this is a delusion that would bring about the end of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.

Anthony Cordesman, one of the most reliable military analysts of the Middle East, and a friend of Israel, argued in a 9 January report for the Center for Strategic and International Studies that the tactical advantages of continuing the operation in Gaza were outweighed by the strategic cost – and were probably no greater than any gains Israel may have made early in the war in selective strikes on key Hamas facilities. ‘Has Israel somehow blundered into a steadily escalating war without a clear strategic goal, or at least one it can credibly achieve?’ he asks. ‘Will Israel end in empowering an enemy in political terms that it defeated in tactical terms? Will Israel’s actions seriously damage the US position in the region, any hope of peace, as well as moderate Arab regimes and voices in the process? To be blunt, the answer so far seems to be yes.’ Cordesman concludes that ‘any leader can take a tough stand and claim that tactical gains are a meaningful victory. If this is all that Olmert, Livni and Barak have for an answer, then they have disgraced themselves and damaged their country and their friends.’

I'm not sure what you're suggesting by posting this aritcle. Do you honestly believe that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 lines HOPING that Hamas will one day give up its goal of destroying Israel? Are you suggesting that Hamas should be allowed to build the same weapon stocks in the WB as it did in Gaza, only that this time it's within 10-20 miles of every target in Israel? In return all Israel can hop to get is a chance that one day Hamas will change its ways? I really don't know what to make of this.
 
Been a while since I've been on this thread and haven't seen much news either. Care for a summarized update anyone?

Cheers.
 
Last update - 07:36 26/01/2009

Egypt demanding Hamas agree to years-long truce in Gaza

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent and The Associated Press

Talks between senior Hamas members and Egyptian officials in Cairo on a new cease-fire arrangement for the Gaza Strip continued late Sunday night amid an apparent disagreement over the length of the truce.

The Egyptians are demanding a truce of a number of years' duration, while Hamas spokesman in the Gaza Strip, Ayman Taha, said the group would agree to a cease-fire of no more than between one year and 18 months. Another Hamas spokesman, Ismail Radwan, said a long-term cease-fire "kills" the right to resistance by the Palestinians.

Hamas and Israeli officials have also indicated that much of the discussion has centered on control of the border crossings in and out of Gaza. Hamas wants the blockade on Gaza lifted. Israel wants assurances that weapons smuggling into the Gaza strip will stop.

"Hamas listened to the Israeli proposal presented by [Defense Ministry official] Amos Gilad, and with it a proposal for a ceasefire for a year and a half, but Hamas presented a counterproposal of one year only,"

Ayman Taha told reporters in Cairo after talks with Egyptian intelligence officials.

The Hamas delegation met with the heads of Egyptian intelligence on Sunday who transmitted to them Israel's positions. Jerusalem has not yet clarified what stance it had presented.

Meanwhile, Taha reiterated the group's calls for a lifting of the blockade imposed on the impoverished and devastated Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt as a condition for the truce. "[Hamas] called for a complete lifting of the blockade and an opening of all the crossings," Taha said.

Hamas proposed to Egyptian mediators that European and Turkish monitors be present at the border crossings, but rejected the presence of Israeli monitors, saying Israeli monitoring was "a large part of the problem," according to Taha.

Asked if Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's forces would be present at the crossings, Taha said: "Hamas is the existing government in Gaza."
Hamas wrested control of the Gaza Strip from Abbas's Fatah faction in fighting in 2007. Egypt has ruled out opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and European Union observers.

Commenting on the talks, Hamas's representative in Lebanon, Osama Hamdan, told Al Jazeera satellite television on Sunday that Hamas was unwilling to alter its positions to Israel's benefit.

"The Israelis must understand that they will not achieve through politics what they failed to do militarily," Hamdan said.

Israel launched an offensive in the Gaza Strip in late December with the declared aim of ending Hamas rocket attacks on its southern communities. About 1,300 Palestinians, at least 700 of them civilians, were killed during the 22-day offensive, while Israel put its death toll at 10 soldiers and three civilians.

Hamas: No reconciliation with Fatah until it ends Israel peace talks

Hamas official Hamdan also said Sunday that Fatah movement must end peace negotiations with Israel before any reconciliation talks can take place.

The remarks were bound to complicate Arab efforts to reconcile Hamas, which controls Gaza, and the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.

Speaking at a rally in Beirut Sunday, Hamdan - a close ally of Hamas political leader Khaled Meshal - said that the group welcomed Palestinian dialogue, but any reconciliation should be based on a resistance program to liberate territory and regain rights.

He also demanded that the PA end security coordination with Israel, and maintained that the Israeli-Palestinian peace process had ended.

"Those who committed mistakes must correct their mistakes through a clear and frank declaration to stop security coordination with the [Israeli] occupation, release [Hamas] prisoners and later end negotiations [with Israel] because the peace process is irreversibly over," said Hamdan.

"It's time for us to talk about a reconciliation based on a resistance program to liberate the [occupied] territory and regain rights," he added.

Asharq Al-Awsat also reported Saturday that Hamas had suggested representatives of the Palestinian Authority be stationed at the Rafah crossing, but that they be residents of Gaza, not the West Bank.

Israel has been allowing some supply convoys into Gaza, though its borders remain largely closed. The Israel Defense Forces says more than 125 trucks a day - on some days nearly 200 - have entered Gaza since fighting ended on January 17th, but aid workers say the numbers are not enough.
 
Hamas is not a ‘resistance movement,’ it is a terrorist organization whose attacks precipitated Operation Cast Lead. The group’s behavior also violated international legal conventions and its fighters and leaders committed numerous war crimes.

It is a war crime to deliberately target civilians. Hamas indiscriminately fired rockets and mortar rounds at cities and neighborhoods in Israel since 2001. No UN resolution was adopted to condemn this war crime and no international effort was made to prevent more than 10,000 rockets and mortars from bombarding Israel.

Hamas also bears direct responsibility for civilian casualties in Gaza because it is a violation of international law to launch attacks from civilian infrastructure. According to the Geneva Conventions and other laws of war, civilians are to be protected and distinguished from combatants. This protection extends to civilian areas to minimize harm to innocents. Hamas provoked return fire on civilian areas by launching attacks from densely populated areas and, specifically, from inside and the vicinity of private homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals. In a report to the Israeli cabinet, Israeli intelligence chief, Yuval Diskin, indicated that the Gaza-based leadership of Hamas was hiding in an underground bunker beneath Shifa Hospital, the largest in the Gaza Strip.
Hamas also endangered civilians by ordering its forces to discard uniforms and dress in regular clothes that made them indistinguishable from the civilian population.

In an egregious violation of international law, Hamas terrorists used civilians as human shields, for example, sending them onto rooftops to deter Israeli attacks on their leaders and rocket crews.

Hamas also violated the prohibition on the use of humanitarian symbols as shields. It is illegal, for example, for fighters to try to protect themselves through the use of “signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.” Hamas repeatedly used humanitarian aid trucks and ambulances to transport fighters and weapons and launched attacks from the proximity of UN buildings and schools.

Irwin Cotler, a former Canadian justice minister, Member of Parliament, and law professor at McGill University, observed that Hamas also violates the prohibitions against the incitement of genocide. “The Hamas covenant itself is a standing incitement to genocide,” says Cotler. In contrast to Israel’s military operation to defend itself from attack, Hamas’ violence targeting Israeli Jews is a part of a grander goal to kill all Jews.

Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians have been systematic and widespread, as opposed to infrequent, and are therefore defined in the treaty of the International Criminal Court and international humanitarian law as a crime against humanity.

Hamas’ final, and arguably most horrendous, war crime is its recruitment of children into armed conflict. From a young age, Palestinian children are taught hatred for Jews and are bombarded with images, written messages, and broadcasts that glorify martyrdom. They are often pressed into service to engage in or assist others in terrorist activities, including acting as suicide bombers.

Given the extent of their violations of international law, the world has an obligation to demand that the leaders of Hamas be charged with war crimes.
 
Hamas exists because of Israel's treatment of Palestinians...doesnt matter if they're terrorists, resistance movement, wookies or whatever you want to call them, but they do exist for a reason.
 
Hamas exists because of Israel's treatment of Palestinians...doesnt matter if they're terrorists, resistance movement, wookies or whatever you want to call them, but they do exist for a reason.

Yeah, and their reason is stated quite clearly and it's not to 'free the Palestenian people', it's to get rid of Israel.
 
Yeah, and their reason is stated quite clearly and it's not to 'free the Palestenian people', it's to get rid of Israel.

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada, as an uprising against Israeli rule in the Palestinian Territories.

Although Hamas's charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, Hamas's political leader in Gaza,Ismail Haniyeh, in 2008 stated Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce. Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and neither religious nor antisemitic.
 
Hamas's political leader in Gaza,Ismail Haniyeh, in 2008 stated Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce. Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and neither religious nor antisemitic.

Aside from the fact Haniyeh cannot decide things my himself, A TRUCE?
 
Yeah, and their reason is stated quite clearly and it's not to 'free the Palestenian people', it's to get rid of Israel.

the way you've treated their people, especially since 2007, but also before, is it a surprise they want to get rid of Israel?

If you hadn't imposed the blockade, or let it up in the summer, maybe they'd have softened their stance already? But in order for them to compromise you have to stop persecuting their people?
 
the way you've treated their people, especially since 2007, but also before, is it a surprise they want to get rid of Israel?

If you hadn't imposed the blockade, or let it up in the summer, maybe they'd have softened their stance already? But in order for them to compromise you have to stop persecuting their people?


Poor Hamas.

While kneecapping Fatah brothers and chucking the rest out of windows, nice to know that your apologising for them while it is hamas who are doing the persecuting of palestinians..

See this please.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PvEDj7MweBs
 
Hamas is not a ‘resistance movement,’ it is a terrorist organization whose attacks precipitated Operation Cast Lead. The group’s behavior also violated international legal conventions and its fighters and leaders committed numerous war crimes.

It is a war crime to deliberately target civilians. Hamas indiscriminately fired rockets and mortar rounds at cities and neighborhoods in Israel since 2001. No UN resolution was adopted to condemn this war crime and no international effort was made to prevent more than 10,000 rockets and mortars from bombarding Israel.

Hamas also bears direct responsibility for civilian casualties in Gaza because it is a violation of international law to launch attacks from civilian infrastructure. According to the Geneva Conventions and other laws of war, civilians are to be protected and distinguished from combatants. This protection extends to civilian areas to minimize harm to innocents. Hamas provoked return fire on civilian areas by launching attacks from densely populated areas and, specifically, from inside and the vicinity of private homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals. In a report to the Israeli cabinet, Israeli intelligence chief, Yuval Diskin, indicated that the Gaza-based leadership of Hamas was hiding in an underground bunker beneath Shifa Hospital, the largest in the Gaza Strip.
Hamas also endangered civilians by ordering its forces to discard uniforms and dress in regular clothes that made them indistinguishable from the civilian population.

In an egregious violation of international law, Hamas terrorists used civilians as human shields, for example, sending them onto rooftops to deter Israeli attacks on their leaders and rocket crews.

Hamas also violated the prohibition on the use of humanitarian symbols as shields. It is illegal, for example, for fighters to try to protect themselves through the use of “signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.” Hamas repeatedly used humanitarian aid trucks and ambulances to transport fighters and weapons and launched attacks from the proximity of UN buildings and schools.

Irwin Cotler, a former Canadian justice minister, Member of Parliament, and law professor at McGill University, observed that Hamas also violates the prohibitions against the incitement of genocide. “The Hamas covenant itself is a standing incitement to genocide,” says Cotler. In contrast to Israel’s military operation to defend itself from attack, Hamas’ violence targeting Israeli Jews is a part of a grander goal to kill all Jews.

Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians have been systematic and widespread, as opposed to infrequent, and are therefore defined in the treaty of the International Criminal Court and international humanitarian law as a crime against humanity.

Hamas’ final, and arguably most horrendous, war crime is its recruitment of children into armed conflict. From a young age, Palestinian children are taught hatred for Jews and are bombarded with images, written messages, and broadcasts that glorify martyrdom. They are often pressed into service to engage in or assist others in terrorist activities, including acting as suicide bombers.

Given the extent of their violations of international law, the world has an obligation to demand that the leaders of Hamas be charged with war crimes.


if the Israeli leaders are charged with war crimes, then we can consider the Hamas ones being charged as well.

Since 2001 you have killed how many Palestinians? And starved with the blockade how many more? It just looks like you are pointing at others' minor crimes to take attention from your major ones (i.e. killing 1300 people, and the blockade that led to deaths of many more).
 
Poor Hamas.

While kneecapping Fatah brothers and chucking the rest out of windows, nice to know that your apologising for them while it is hamas who are doing the persecuting of palestinians..

See this please.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PvEDj7MweBs

you've been apologising for the blockade and the bombings that killed hundreds of people for months now.

so maybe I can do some apologising too - or are rules different for you?

Fatah kill Hamas too you know, it's not a one-way fight. And whatever Hamas are, that does not wash the blood off your hands one little bit.
 
Last update - 07:36 26/01/2009

Egypt demanding Hamas agree to years-long truce in Gaza

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent and The Associated Press

Talks between senior Hamas members and Egyptian officials in Cairo on a new cease-fire arrangement for the Gaza Strip continued late Sunday night amid an apparent disagreement over the length of the truce.

The Egyptians are demanding a truce of a number of years' duration, while Hamas spokesman in the Gaza Strip, Ayman Taha, said the group would agree to a cease-fire of no more than between one year and 18 months. Another Hamas spokesman, Ismail Radwan, said a long-term cease-fire "kills" the right to resistance by the Palestinians.

Hamas and Israeli officials have also indicated that much of the discussion has centered on control of the border crossings in and out of Gaza. Hamas wants the blockade on Gaza lifted. Israel wants assurances that weapons smuggling into the Gaza strip will stop.

"Hamas listened to the Israeli proposal presented by [Defense Ministry official] Amos Gilad, and with it a proposal for a ceasefire for a year and a half, but Hamas presented a counterproposal of one year only,"

Ayman Taha told reporters in Cairo after talks with Egyptian intelligence officials.

The Hamas delegation met with the heads of Egyptian intelligence on Sunday who transmitted to them Israel's positions. Jerusalem has not yet clarified what stance it had presented.

Meanwhile, Taha reiterated the group's calls for a lifting of the blockade imposed on the impoverished and devastated Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt as a condition for the truce. "[Hamas] called for a complete lifting of the blockade and an opening of all the crossings," Taha said.

Hamas proposed to Egyptian mediators that European and Turkish monitors be present at the border crossings, but rejected the presence of Israeli monitors, saying Israeli monitoring was "a large part of the problem," according to Taha.

Asked if Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's forces would be present at the crossings, Taha said: "Hamas is the existing government in Gaza."
Hamas wrested control of the Gaza Strip from Abbas's Fatah faction in fighting in 2007. Egypt has ruled out opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and European Union observers.

Commenting on the talks, Hamas's representative in Lebanon, Osama Hamdan, told Al Jazeera satellite television on Sunday that Hamas was unwilling to alter its positions to Israel's benefit.

"The Israelis must understand that they will not achieve through politics what they failed to do militarily," Hamdan said.

Israel launched an offensive in the Gaza Strip in late December with the declared aim of ending Hamas rocket attacks on its southern communities. About 1,300 Palestinians, at least 700 of them civilians, were killed during the 22-day offensive, while Israel put its death toll at 10 soldiers and three civilians.

Hamas: No reconciliation with Fatah until it ends Israel peace talks

Hamas official Hamdan also said Sunday that Fatah movement must end peace negotiations with Israel before any reconciliation talks can take place.

The remarks were bound to complicate Arab efforts to reconcile Hamas, which controls Gaza, and the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.

Speaking at a rally in Beirut Sunday, Hamdan - a close ally of Hamas political leader Khaled Meshal - said that the group welcomed Palestinian dialogue, but any reconciliation should be based on a resistance program to liberate territory and regain rights.

He also demanded that the PA end security coordination with Israel, and maintained that the Israeli-Palestinian peace process had ended.

"Those who committed mistakes must correct their mistakes through a clear and frank declaration to stop security coordination with the [Israeli] occupation, release [Hamas] prisoners and later end negotiations [with Israel] because the peace process is irreversibly over," said Hamdan.

"It's time for us to talk about a reconciliation based on a resistance program to liberate the [occupied] territory and regain rights," he added.

Asharq Al-Awsat also reported Saturday that Hamas had suggested representatives of the Palestinian Authority be stationed at the Rafah crossing, but that they be residents of Gaza, not the West Bank.

Israel has been allowing some supply convoys into Gaza, though its borders remain largely closed. The Israel Defense Forces says more than 125 trucks a day - on some days nearly 200 - have entered Gaza since fighting ended on January 17th, but aid workers say the numbers are not enough.

sounds like an understandable position from Hamas. Having just been attacked so mercilessly you are not likely to start talking peace, are you...

and I see the blockade is _still_ not being lifted - unbelievable.
 
If you hadn't imposed the blockade, or let it up in the summer, maybe they'd have softened their stance already? But in order for them to compromise you have to stop persecuting their people?

As long as they were firing rockets, there was no chance in hell we'd do anything that will show that maybe terror helps.
 
The Siegman article is so biased it borders on the ridiculous. It argues that Israel violated the truce, obviously ignoring the constant rocket fire throughout the period. It's been discussed before in this thread, but I can't blame you for not being able to follow this monsterous thread.

Even Mozza does not ignore those rockets, but argues that "it wasn't Hamas" that fired them or could have prevented others from firing them. I can't decide between Mozza's educated opinion and Siegman's insistance that "Hamas brought to Gaza a level of law and order unknown in recent years".

But the point is that the rockets are not there for no reason, they are a response to Israeli actions, in particular the blockade. Israel violated the truce on day 1 by refusing to lift the blockade...
 
As long as they were firing rockets, there was no chance in hell we'd do anything that will show that maybe terror helps.


but why should they stop firing rockets if you don't lift the blockade? If they stop firing, that will show that blockading and starving people helps?

Don't forget, this wasn't just a blockade on weapons. Things like humanitarian aid were also restricted, for no apparent reason.
 
That map is a prime example of what's wrong with the UN. How on earth did any group of people look at that map and think "feck yea, that's the shit, GET IN!!". Just a horrible idea. Plus if you read that you'll see it was doomed from the get go.

well, Israel agreed to it. The Arabs didn't, because it gave them far too little relative to their population %. The point I am making with that map is that in1947 that splitting (giving the arabs far far more than the West Bank and Gaza) was considered fair. Now Israel claims that even a splitting on 1949 armistice lines is impossible. The conclusion being, that Israel has been encroaching into Palestinian land for all this time. Yes, it has been attacked (as well as attacked itself) and gained territory in war: but gain of territory in war, and in particular its settlement, is forbidden by the UN.
 
As long as they were firing rockets, there was no chance in hell we'd do anything that will show that maybe terror helps.

Terror doesnt work but starving and blockading people does? Do you see why peace will never be resolved based on the stance Israel usually adopts? Hamas are basically fighting one evil with another.
 
Unfortunately the yellow guys didn't actually accept it.
From the very page you posted:
"The declaration [of indipendence of Israel] was followed by an invasion of the new state by troops from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, starting the 1948 Arab–Israeli War".
It happens sometimes that those who declare wars and lose them, end up by losing territory.
I suspect they shouldn't have started that war in the first place, but I feel we might disagree here.

Doesn't matter that they haven't accepted. The point is, there were many Arabs in the yellow part, and their descendants need a country of theirs to live in.
 
If Israel did not do wrongs in gazza, why they are not revealing info about the soldiers involved in the operation, why its Prime minister pledged to protect them if they did not do any thing wrong : why they fear prosecution for war crimes overseas ?

Why did they stop western journalists from entering the area and verifying the claims and counter-claims themselves? What were they hiding?

If their methods and tactics were so precise, if their super-technology could kill a nasty militant and not hurt the children round him, to kill only the bad guys, why not invite the foreign media to observe?

or maybe... they weren't?
 
... Which came in response to terror attacks in Israel cities?

We're never going to get to the bottom of the chicken and egg question, so I won't bother with history anymore.

the conclusion being that you and Hamas are peas in the same pod. They kill by rockets, you by blockades and military offensive.

my point is, then there was a truce. One condition was, lift the blockade. You did not lift the blockade. Foreign aid agencies constantly complained about being interfered with.

You motivated your attack this month by 'oh but they fired the rockets first', totally ignoring the fact that _you_ equally failed to observe your side of the truce.
 
Doesn't matter that they haven't accepted. The point is, there were many Arabs in the yellow part, and their descendants need a country of theirs to live in.

I agree.
Question is: do THEY agree?

Last time they were given a chance it looked like destroying Israel was a bigger priority than building a state of their own.
We all hope for a two-state solution but I’m afraid there’s not enough evidence to believe they’ll act any different next time they’ll be given a chance.
The very Hamas covenant doesn’t look particularly encouraging.
 
I'm not sure what you're suggesting by posting this aritcle. Do you honestly believe that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 lines HOPING that Hamas will one day give up its goal of destroying Israel? Are you suggesting that Hamas should be allowed to build the same weapon stocks in the WB as it did in Gaza, only that this time it's within 10-20 miles of every target in Israel? In return all Israel can hop to get is a chance that one day Hamas will change its ways? I really don't know what to make of this.

no,

Israel puts on the table a firm commitement to withdraw to 1967 lines, and agrees a formation of an independent Palestinian state comprising all of Occupied Territories.

Hamas (and Fatah etc) puts on the table a firm commitement to recognise Israel and to not attack them.

Most importantly, Israel refuses to act like it's the victim in this and admits that its actions led in equal part to the crisis.
 
I agree.
Question is: do THEY agree?

Last time they were given a chance it looked like destroying Israel was a bigger priority than building a state of their own.
We all hope for a two-state solution but I’m afraid there’s not enough evidence to believe they’ll act any different next time they’ll be given a chance.
The very Hamas covenant doesn’t look particularly encouraging.

It's in Israel's interest to have peace now, before they get a chance to find out how their opponents will act given a less-than-overwhelming Israeli military superiority. Before the Irgun and the troubles of the 30's and 40's Arabs and Jews lived there peacefully you know... it is possible.
 
RedKaos;5686478[B said:
Hamas's political leader in Gaza,Ismail Haniyeh, in 2008 stated Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce.[/B]

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel should retreat to the 1967 lines and get a "long-term" truce in return? What Haniyeh and Hamas are suggesting is renewed hostilities when that long-term is seen through with the goal of what they call "liberation" of Palestine, i.e. destruction of Israel

If you hadn't imposed the blockade, or let it up in the summer, maybe they'd have softened their stance already? But in order for them to compromise you have to stop persecuting their people?


Israel will not allow an organization that has vowed for its destruction to control border crossing. The indiscriminate bombardment of Southen Israel communities for 8 years should back Israel's reasoning. We simply can't let them arm with longer-range missiles that will bring more destruction to both sides simply out of "hope" that they will soften their stance.
 
sounds like an understandable position from Hamas. Having just been attacked so mercilessly you are not likely to start talking peace, are you...

and I see the blockade is _still_ not being lifted - unbelievable.

If "the peace process is irreversibly over" what are you expecting from Israel?
 
the conclusion being that you and Hamas are peas in the same pod. They kill by rockets, you by blockades and military offensive.

my point is, then there was a truce. One condition was, lift the blockade. You did not lift the blockade. Foreign aid agencies constantly complained about being interfered with.

You motivated your attack this month by 'oh but they fired the rockets first', totally ignoring the fact that _you_ equally failed to observe your side of the truce.

We're going back to the same arguments here, possibly because nobody cares reading previous posts. Rockets were fired constantly during the so-called truce. Israel did not retaliate by force, but closed the border crossings every time we were attacked. There were even rumours that the terrorists launching the missiles made a nice profit from selling smuggled goods on the Gaza black market when prices went up because of the closed border crossings.