Scores die in Israeli air strikes

no,

Israel puts on the table a firm commitement to withdraw to 1967 lines, and agrees a formation of an independent Palestinian state comprising all of Occupied Territories.

Hamas (and Fatah etc) puts on the table a firm commitement to recognise Israel and to not attack them.

Most importantly, Israel refuses to act like it's the victim in this and admits that its actions led in equal part to the crisis.

Insisting on the 1967 lines is daft, and territory exchange is the only way forward. Israel has already agreed to a solution along those lines, and admitted that it played a part in creating the refugee problem. Not a big deal, as it was part of winning a war that was inflicted on the Jewish communities.

However, no matter how nicely you try to portray declarations of Hamas officials, the very foundations of Hamas do not agree with peaceful co-existence of a Jewish and Palestinian states side by side. However, I wish it was only Hamas that was the problem. Not only Hamas and Fatah disagree to a Jewsih Israel, even Israeli Arabs contest the idea of the Jewish nature of the State of Israel.
 
It's in Israel's interest to have peace now, before they get a chance to find out how their opponents will act given a less-than-overwhelming Israeli military superiority. Before the Irgun and the troubles of the 30's and 40's Arabs and Jews lived there peacefully you know... it is possible.

Wrong. Massacres of Jews by Arabs started in the 1920's. The Irgun was a response to those incidents.
 
Why did they stop western journalists from entering the area and verifying the claims and counter-claims themselves? What were they hiding?

If their methods and tactics were so precise, if their super-technology could kill a nasty militant and not hurt the children round him, to kill only the bad guys, why not invite the foreign media to observe?

or maybe... they weren't?

War criminals don't often want their crimes all over the news..so they try and hide them for as long as they can.
 
It's in Israel's interest to have peace now, before they get a chance to find out how their opponents will act given a less-than-overwhelming Israeli military superiority.
Wishful thinking, in my opinion. The Israeli military was embarrassed by Hezbollah a few years ago, but they've apparently learned some lessons since then. Lebanon gave Israel's enemies reason to be optimistic that the IDF was no longer as mighty as it had seemed. However they seem to have learned from their mistakes, overconfidence, and poor tactics, and this latest venture has not given a great deal of joy to Israel's enemies with regard to the IDF's effectiveness.

Seems to me that unless Iran becomes massively and overtly involved, Israel is not threatened by a foe with even remotely comparable military capabilities. Although if Iran were to become so involved, I think it's a safe bet that the US would up the ante as well. Whatever political strategy Israel and the Palestinians take going forward, Israeli military superiority appears to be something both sides must factor into their approach. This brings to mind Wibble's earlier comments about the inevitability of this recent sort of Israeli operation.
 
Wishful thinking, in my opinion. The Israeli military was embarrassed by Hezbollah a few years ago, but they've apparently learned some lessons since then. Lebanon gave Israel's enemies reason to be optimistic that the IDF was no longer as mighty as it had seemed. However they seem to have learned from their mistakes, overconfidence, and poor tactics, and this latest venture has not given a great deal of joy to Israel's enemies with regard to the IDF's effectiveness.

By 'learnt' from Lebanon you basically mean Israel have decided to avoid direct confrontation with militants and would instead blow the crap outta heavy civilian populated areas instead of risking embarassment to their troops?Why even bother having an army then? Israel might as well spend their entire military funding on artillery and aircraft.
 
By 'learnt' from Lebanon you basically mean Israel have decided to avoid direct confrontation with militants and would instead blow the crap outta heavy civilian populated areas instead of risking embarassment to their troops?Why even bother having an army then? Israel might as well spend their entire military funding on artillery and aircraft.

Were you under the impression that having an army meant hand to hand combat or shooting at the opposition from foxholes ?

Modern warfare is based on technology and killing or capturing as many enemy combatants as possible while minimizing casualties to your own side. If the military is an advanced one such as that of the US, then ground troops are needed for the ground invasion that follows striking the enemy from the air and creating an environment of least resistance for ground forces to come in and control the area.
 
By 'learnt' from Lebanon you basically mean Israel have decided to avoid direct confrontation with militants and would instead blow the crap outta heavy civilian populated areas instead of risking embarassment to their troops?Why even bother having an army then? Israel might as well spend their entire military funding on artillery and aircraft.

Israel learnt quite a few lessons from 2006, but winning direct confrontations with the enemy wasn't a problem that needed addressing. It wasn't that kind of situations that contributed to the 2006 stalemate.

Anyway, I was under the impression that it was Hamas that avoided direct confrontation with the IDF. Out of an alleged total of 15000 combatants they could't mount a serious threat to IDF soldiers in urban warfare, which means that they dumped their weapons and crawled down into well dug tunnels.
 
Why did they stop western journalists from entering the area and verifying the claims and counter-claims themselves? What were they hiding?

If their methods and tactics were so precise, if their super-technology could kill a nasty militant and not hurt the children round him, to kill only the bad guys, why not invite the foreign media to observe?

or maybe... they weren't?

GAZA IN RUINS
'Who Has Won Here?'
By Ulrike Putz in Beit Lahia, Gaza

In the Gaza Strip people are returning home -- or to the rubble that was once their home. Many are blaming Hamas for the destruction because the militants hid among civilians and attracted Israeli fire. Yet no one dares to speak out openly.

What is left over when a person is hit by a tank shell. Blood, tissue, bone splinters, splatters on the wall.

And anger.

Mohammed Sadala's rage is aimed at the man, whose remains he found in his bedroom: a Hamas fighter. He and a comrade broke into the home which had long stood empty after the Sadala family fled. The Hamas men shot at the approaching Israelis from the balcony. The soldiers fired back, killing the militants and destroying the house of the 10-strong family in the process.

When Sadala came back to survey the scene he found his property in ruins: the younger children's bedroom was burnt out, while the living room and hallway were strewn with bullet holes and blackened by soot from the fire. In the bedroom lay the corpses: one had bled to death, the other was hit by a tank shell.

Beside the bodies lay the assault rifle which they had used to try to stop the tanks.

"I used to support Hamas because they fought for our country, for Palestine," says Sadala. Hamas stood for a new start, for an end of corruption, which had spread like cancer under the moderate Fatah. In the 2006 elections Hamas won the majority with their message of change, said Sadala, who earned a living in the building business. Gesticulating wildly, the 52-year-old surveyed the ruins of the bedroom: "That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years."

Through the hole in the wall of his house, Sadala sees a landscape in gray and brown. This is where a neighbourhood had stood, his neighbourhood. Now there is a snake of sand around the bomb crater. It is impossible to tell where the streets once stood. Family houses have turned into piles of debris. People have built refuges using cloth and rubble. They stand alongside dead donkeys and sheep, whose stomachs swell up. No one here has time to remove rotting corpses.

The people from Beit Lahia are starting from zero again: children load wood from broken trees onto their back. Their mothers bend over fires and bake bread. Young women carry water in petrol canisters. Only the men stand around looking numb, smoking, staring blankly. Many people here, like Sandala, had placed their hopes in Hamas -- now they are gazing into nothing, ideologically as well as materially.

Everything Is Lost Now

And it is not just buildings that lie in rubble in the Gaza strip, it is the livelihoods of many thousands of people. In Arabic societies a home is usually everything a family possesses. Often several brothers build a house for the entire family. Living at close quarters has its advantages: when the costs of building the house are paid off, there is more money left over to feed the dozens of family members.

"When Hamas came to power, they came to our aid with packages of groceries," says Abu Abed. The 60-year-old's sons, all of whom are trained hospital nurses, have been without work for years. That is true of many in the Gaza Strip. Now Abu Abed stands before the rumble of the house where he lived with four generations of his family. All that remains are the ground floor pillars. The Israeli navy had its eye on the building from the very beginning of the war. After all, its clear view of Gaza City and the sea would have provided a good base for Hamas.

"I've changed my mind about Hamas," Abu Abed says. "I can't support any party that wages a war that destroys our lives." He is particularly pained by the fact that Hamas is still selling the cease-fire as a victory.

"Who has won here?" he asks and points to the debris that was once his home.

One of his neighbors weighs in: "Many people are now against Hamas but that won't change anything," he says. "Because anyone who stands up to them is killed." Since they took power Hamas has used brutal force against any dissenters in the Gaza Strip. There were news agency reports that during the war they allegedly executed suspected collaborators with Israel. The reign of terror will go on for some time, says the neighbor who doesn't want to give his name. "There will never be a rebellion against Hamas. It would be suicide."

Others swallow their anger. Hail's house is just a few streets away and only suffered light damage. There are a few bullet holes in the living room walls and all of the window panes are broken. Hail also found out after the cease-fire that the militants had used his house as a base for their operations. The door to his house stood open and there were electric cables lying in the hallway. When Hail followed them they led to his neighbor's house which it seems Hamas had mined.

As Hail, in his mid-30s, sat on his porch and thought about what to do a man came by: He was from Hamas and had left something in Hail's home. He let him in and the man then emerged with a bullet proof vest, a rocket launcher and an ammunitions belt. An hour later a fighter with Islamic Jihad called to the door, then disappeared onto the roof and reappeared with a box of ammunition. "The abused civilians' homes for their own purposes. That is not right," Hail says with disgust while trying to remain polite.

In contrast to many of their neighbors the Sadala family is doing comparatively well. They have all survived and the house could theoretically still be repaired. Mohammed Sadala is of another opinion: "There is no way," he says. What happened in his bedroom cannot be covered up just by cleaning. The worst is that he now knows who died in the room. It was Bilal Haj Ali. Sadala knows this because the young mans brothers came to visit a few days ago. They wanted to see the place where Bilal became a martyr. "I did let them in but I hardly spoke a word with them," he says.

The young men took photos of the remains of their brother with their mobile phones. "But they didn't want to clean it up," Sadala says. "I told them not to show their faces here ever again."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603203,00.html
 
Blast interrupts IDF patrol on Gaza border

Six days after last soldier leaves Gaza, Palestinian groups resume activities against Israeli army. Explosive device detonated near patrol vehicle traveling along border fence. Palestinians report of clashes in area, including sniper fire

Hanan Greenberg Published: 01.27.09, 09:53 / Israel News

For the first time since the last IDF soldier left Gaza six days ago following Operation Cast Lead , Palestinian organizations resume activities against Israeli army: An explosive device exploded Tuesday morning near the Kissufim crossing along the border with the Gaza Strip.

The blast occurred shortly after 8 am, as an IDF force patrolled the border fence in the southern Gaza Strip. Palestinian sources reported that exchanges of fire erupted in the area, including sniper fire.

Palestinian eyewitnesses said two or three gunmen were seen moving towards the border fence in the early morning hours. Heavy gunfire was audible along the border in central Gaza and Israeli helicopters hovered in the air, firing bursts from their machine guns, the witnesses said. Two loud explosions were reportedly heard in Gaza City.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3662417,00.html

I know some will be interested in reasons that will have led to the next round of violence, so here's a good starting point.
 
Israel not opening the borders to aid and imports, Israel continuing its occupation, Israel continuing the settlement expansion
 
It's legal to starve? It's legal to steal land?

I love the way contexts change to suit your argument.

Blame Hamas for the terrible plight the Palestinians are suffering, and blame Egypt, Syria, Jordan for gambling everything away in 48 and 67.
 
An Israeli soldier was killed in that attack. If Hamas thinks this will cause Israel to open the borders and and help the palestenian people, they've got a little problem called being insane.

With two weeks to go until the elections in Israel, all they are probably doing is helping the right-wing parties win more votes. And that's not going to help them over the next couple of years.
 
- Four Palestinians were injured on 22 January by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat sailing off the Gaza coast. The gunboat reportedly was firing at Palestinian fishermen. Earlier the morning of the 22nd, a house was set afire by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat. No injuries were reported.
Also on the morning of the 22nd, IDF troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City near the border.
 
maybe I missed this here but what's with the Israelis offering to protect it's soldiers from prosecution for war crimes?
 
Israel not opening the borders to aid and imports, Israel continuing its occupation, Israel continuing the settlement expansion

None of those, legal or not, were part of last week's ceasefire understandings. I'd expect the IDF to respond disproportionally if our leradership is interested in long term calm.
 
- Four Palestinians were injured on 22 January by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat sailing off the Gaza coast. The gunboat reportedly was firing at Palestinian fishermen. Earlier the morning of the 22nd, a house was set afire by a shell fired from an Israeli gunboat. No injuries were reported.
Also on the morning of the 22nd, IDF troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City near the border.

If they are after fish then the IAF is hunting moles in the Rafah tunnels.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7850085.stm

this is the link I found.

seems to me that Ohlmert is offering to give the IDF immunity.

Immunity from what? What the government has clearly stated is that if some loon is going to press charges then it'll give full legal support to our men who were sent to war.
Unfortunately, some countries have put themselves in a position where politically-motivated charges can be brought to court in incidents that have nothing to do with them. This includes the UK which occupies both Afghanistan and Iraq, yet its courts could be a venue for pressing charges against soldiers defending their own countries in dirty urban warfare.
 
None of those, legal or not, were part of last week's ceasefire understandings. I'd expect the IDF to respond disproportionally if our leradership is interested in long term calm.

Obviously since you signed a peace deal with the US, if you think however that the peace will continue without the blockade being lifted your an idiot
 
Israeli army personnel deserve legal advice from the country that sent them to the battlefield.

Ok, so why is it they chose to do it in this conflict? why not earlier?

Face it, if Israel had nothing to hide then they would happily publicise their military personnel.
 
HR, the article said "state protection", not legal help.

big difference, imo.

no one should be above the law, including the IDF.
yeah I know Hamas doesn't follow the same laws but surely the IDF should be held to a higher standard.
 
HR, the article said "state protection", not legal help.

big difference, imo.

no one should be above the law, including the IDF.
yeah I know Hamas doesn't follow the same laws but surely the IDF should be held to a higher standard.

Which law is that? Is that the same one the US doesn't subscribe to, the International War Crimes Tribunal?
 
Which law is that? Is that the same one the US doesn't subscribe to, the International War Crimes Tribunal?

A good point - but the fact that the US fails to abide by it should not be an excuse for the IDF to do the same.

Instead both should be castigated for failing to abide by global laws and conventions, just because someone else is doing it doesn't mean Israel's actions are defensible.
 
Wishful thinking, in my opinion. The Israeli military was embarrassed by Hezbollah a few years ago, but they've apparently learned some lessons since then. Lebanon gave Israel's enemies reason to be optimistic that the IDF was no longer as mighty as it had seemed. However they seem to have learned from their mistakes, overconfidence, and poor tactics, and this latest venture has not given a great deal of joy to Israel's enemies with regard to the IDF's effectiveness.

Seems to me that unless Iran becomes massively and overtly involved, Israel is not threatened by a foe with even remotely comparable military capabilities. Although if Iran were to become so involved, I think it's a safe bet that the US would up the ante as well. Whatever political strategy Israel and the Palestinians take going forward, Israeli military superiority appears to be something both sides must factor into their approach. This brings to mind Wibble's earlier comments about the inevitability of this recent sort of Israeli operation.

How was Israel embarrassed in Lebanon exactly? They learned one thing. In asymmetrical warfare you cannot use tanks as mobile bunkers in urban warfare.

That's it. Other than having lots of their Merkava's disabled or KO'd they abused Hezbollah.
 
A good point - but the fact that the US fails to abide by it should not be an excuse for the IDF to do the same.

Instead both should be castigated for failing to abide by global laws and conventions, just because someone else is doing it doesn't mean Israel's actions are defensible.

wot he said.
 
A good point - but the fact that the US fails to abide by it should not be an excuse for the IDF to do the same.

Instead both should be castigated for failing to abide by global laws and conventions, just because someone else is doing it doesn't mean Israel's actions are defensible.

I was more referencing the fact that my buddy utdalltheway lives in the US. You are correct, though.
 
How was Israel embarrassed in Lebanon exactly? They learned one thing. In asymmetrical warfare you cannot use tanks as mobile bunkers in urban warfare.

That's it. Other than having lots of their Merkava's disabled or KO'd they abused Hezbollah.

Yes, great victory for Israel in 2006 - their objective was to invade south lebanon and topple Hezbollah. They managed to advance a few miles, lose too many men then pulled back. Ontop of that Hezbollah emerged as being more popular and stronger today. Those 2 prisoners they captured were recently returned in bodybags in exchange for 200 Hezbollah fighters.

Unless by victory you mean by how many Civilians are killed, then yes the Israelis won that battle again with an impressive 1100 Lebanese civilians dead.
 
How was Israel embarrassed in Lebanon exactly? They learned one thing. In asymmetrical warfare you cannot use tanks as mobile bunkers in urban warfare.

That's it. Other than having lots of their Merkava's disabled or KO'd they abused Hezbollah.
Having lots of their tanks destroyed was embarrassing for the IDF. They need not only to win, but to appear unbeatable, impregnable, especially against a bunch of guerrillas. They went in saying they'd finish Hezbollah for good, but this turned out to be well beyond their capabilities. They did not win the media war, which many saw as a decisive victory for Hezbollah. And on the home front, citizens were not impressed by the campaign and its proponents, and there were political repercussions for those associated with the campaign.

Someone please provide a correction if I'm mistaken, but I believe all of those things occurred, and that the campaign was something of an embarrassment.
 
Yes, great victory for Israel in 2006 - their objective was to invade south lebanon and topple Hezbollah. They managed to advance a few miles, lose too many men then pulled back. Ontop of that Hezbollah emerged as being more popular and stronger today. Those 2 prisoners they captured were recently returned in bodybags in exchange for 200 Hezbollah fighters.

Unless by victory you mean by how many Civilians are killed, then yes the Israelis won that battle again with an impressive 1100 Lebanese civilians dead.

What a disgusting human being you must be to revel in the killing of two Israelis in an unprovoked attack in Israeli territory, returning them in bodybags in exchange for prisoners. Just to let you know, Israel returned 5 men for the bodies of our two soldiers whose bodies were snatched. Among them was a child killer who had served 30 years in prison already in Israel. The celebrations that followed his release are a shame on Arab society, and though it fecking hurts on our side, it is aslo an indication of how backwards Arab society is compared to Western standards.

Unfortunately, feeling pleased at the occasional blow we take makes you blind to the fact that fundamentalism keeps your societies light years behind the Israeli and Western society. You are welcome to support fundamentalism in Arab societies, condemning your own to life under those religious nutters while you enjoy the benefits of Western life (I assume).

Finally, please keep in mind the price tag for "returning our soldiers in bodybags". We give 200 in return to 2 bodies, which is quite disproportionate you'd have to agree. Try not to be too fecking melodramatic when we disproportionatly kill 600 when your favourite Arabs kill 3 of our won. You seem to dictate the exchange rate here.
 
How was Israel embarrassed in Lebanon exactly? They learned one thing. In asymmetrical warfare you cannot use tanks as mobile bunkers in urban warfare.

That's it. Other than having lots of their Merkava's disabled or KO'd they abused Hezbollah.

33 days 2 villages...far from impressive the ''invincible'' army...
 
What a disgusting human being you must be to revel in the killing of two Israelis in an unprovoked attack in Israeli territory, returning them in bodybags in exchange for prisoners. Just to let you know, Israel returned 5 men for the bodies of our two soldiers whose bodies were snatched. Among them was a child killer who had served 30 years in prison already in Israel. The celebrations that followed his release are a shame on Arab society, and though it fecking hurts on our side, it is aslo an indication of how backwards Arab society is compared to Western standards.

Unfortunately, feeling pleased at the occasional blow we take makes you blind to the fact that fundamentalism keeps your societies light years behind the Israeli and Western society. You are welcome to support fundamentalism in Arab societies, condemning your own to life under those religious nutters while you enjoy the benefits of Western life (I assume).

Finally, please keep in mind the price tag for "returning our soldiers in bodybags". We give 200 in return to 2 bodies, which is quite disproportionate you'd have to agree. Try not to be too fecking melodramatic when we disproportionatly kill 600 when your favourite Arabs kill 3 of our won. You seem to dictate the exchange rate here.

the attack was going to happen sooner or later and you know it...i agree with you about the whole child killer thing and the celebrations...