Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Mozza said:
There will be people who continue to fight, we in Britain have just dismantled a 200 pound bomb in Northern Ireland, you're living in a fantasy land if you think it'll be any different in Israel.

The borders need to be opened so the people of Gaza are no longer in a prison, 800,000 children jailed, a monstrous act that you support
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When all we have left to worry about is dismantling bombs in NI we'll hapilly open the borders in Gaza.

As far as I'm concerned all Gazans can cross the border to Egypt. I don't care if they do, but I suspect Egypt wouldn't welcome them. What we have to insist on is control of what gets INTO the GS as long as the Palestinians do not abandon their plans to destroy Israel.
 
Amir said:
And when we know we can do that without risking the security of people in Israel, we will. This is why firing rockets is so bloody stupid. All it does is strengthen our belief we can't afford to take that risk.
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Then there will never be a peace deal because one cannot happen without some compromise to Israels security, it is the belief otherwise which leads to Israel committing acts of evil
 
holyland red said:
When all we have left to worry about is dismantling bombs in NI we'll hapilly open the borders in Gaza.

As far as I'm concerned all Gazans can cross the border to Egypt. I don't care if they do, but I suspect Egypt wouldn't welcome them. What we have to insist on is control of what gets INTO the GS as long as the Palestinians do not abandon their plans to destroy Israel.
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Israel control the border to Egypt through the Americans, your insistence in controlling every aspect of the Palestinians lives will never lead to peace
 
Mozza said:
In that case you support evil
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No, I support a situation that appears to be best for my own security, and that of my family and friends. Yes, it's utter sh*t for someone else, but let their elected government take care of them.
 
Amir said:
No, I support a situation that appears to be best for my own security, and that of my family and friends. Yes, it's utter sh*t for someone else, but let their elected government take care of them.
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The thing is, the status quo isnt guaranteeing security for your friends or family, on the contrary it's doing the exact opposite. Its funny how Israel don't realise this.
 
RedKaos said:
The thing is, the status quo isnt guaranteeing security for your friends or family, on the contrary it's doing the exact opposite. Its funny how Israel don't realise this.
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No it isn't, you're quite right, but I still think it's better than opening the borders and hoping for the best.
 
Amir said:
No, I support a situation that appears to be best for my own security, and that of my family and friends. Yes, it's utter sh*t for someone else, but let their elected government take care of them.
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The actions required to maintain that security are evil and you support them
 
Mozza said:
Israel control the border to Egypt through the Americans, your insistence in controlling every aspect of the Palestinians lives will never lead to peace
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There are no Americans controlling the GS-Egypt border.

According to a 2005 agreement by both sides, the Rafah border crossing was supposed to be monitored by EU monitors, PA personnel and Israeli CCTV cameras. Since then Hamas got rid of the PA (mostly Fatah) men, and the EU monitors did the sensible thing and fecked off. According to Mubarak there's no way the crossing will open without implementation of the agreement. I don't see why we should have any new agreement with the Palestinians where the previous one isn't honoured.
 
Mozza said:
In that case you support evil
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Risk your own security or you're evil.

Take a chance of getting hit with an anti-aircraft missile next time you're taking off from your international airport, or else you're a child murderer.

Risk getting your parliament bombarded with rockets if you don't want to be condemned as Nazi.

Accept rocket landing in kidergartens every now and then or we'll take you to the Hague.

Mozza 2009
 
God the world's a fecking shit place to live, a place where people of different races and religions struggle to co-exist (not everywhere mind you)

Makes me fecking despair at times that people aren't all treated as equals :(

I know there are good people out there but they're overshadowed by the evil bastards, or politicians as they are also known.
 
RedKaos said:
That just proves that killing 1300 people earlier didnt stop the rockets and it certaintly hasnt stopped Hamas.

Now do you see why the whole thing is just going in circles?
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It also proves that entering into a cease fire with an enemy that only wants your destruction is foolish.
 
Report: IDF warns Rafah residents to evacuate

Palestinian civilians said to receive phone calls from Israeli security forces warning 'those residing near terror hubs, tunnels, weapons caches' to evacuate area 'immediately'

Ali Waked Published: 02.01.09, 21:09 / Israel News

Residents of Rafah and Khan Younis in the Gaza Strip claimed Sunday evening to have received telephone calls from Israeli security forces warning them to evacuate areas from which gunmen are operating.

According to the civilians, the messages said "all those residing near a terror hub, a tunnel or a weapons cache must leave the area immediately."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3665236,00.html
 
Palestinians: IAF strikes in central Gaza

Reuters Published: 02.01.09, 22:46 / Israel News

Israeli aircraft bombed a Hamas security target in the central Gaza Strip on Sunday, the Islamist group said. There were no casualties.
 
holyland red said:
There are no Americans controlling the GS-Egypt border.

According to a 2005 agreement by both sides, the Rafah border crossing was supposed to be monitored by EU monitors, PA personnel and Israeli CCTV cameras. Since then Hamas got rid of the PA (mostly Fatah) men, and the EU monitors did the sensible thing and fecked off. According to Mubarak there's no way the crossing will open without implementation of the agreement. I don't see why we should have any new agreement with the Palestinians where the previous one isn't honoured.
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You have just signed a deal with the Americans to police the Gaza border with Egypt, Egypt is allowing American service personal in to do that job, it's a bit daft to maintain that America does not control the border when they obviously do

Hamas are members of the PA, one you refuse to work with.
 
holyland red said:
Risk your own security or you're evil.

Take a chance of getting hit with an anti-aircraft missile next time you're taking off from your international airport, or else you're a child murderer.

Risk getting your parliament bombarded with rockets if you don't want to be condemned as Nazi.

Accept rocket landing in kidergartens every now and then or we'll take you to the Hague.

Mozza 2009
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Bombing people, starving them, maiming them, locking them away, that makes you evil. Logically for the sake of Israels security you should kill every non Israeli on the planet, its the only way to be sure
 
Mozza said:
You have just signed a deal with the Americans to police the Gaza border with Egypt, Egypt is allowing American service personal in to do that job, it's a bit daft to maintain that America does not control the border when they obviously do

Hamas are members of the PA, one you refuse to work with.
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Egypt doesn't agree to the presence of US peacekeepers on its side of the border. US personnel only train the Egyptians in using equipment for tracking tunnels used for smuggling. Egypt has closed the border, so there is no need for anyone to "control" it anymore. Fighting the smuggling through tunnels is within the interests of all involved, other than Hamas (and tunnel owners who make a fortune from the industry).
 
Mozza said:
Bombing people, starving them, maiming them, locking them away, that makes you evil. Logically for the sake of Israels security you should kill every non Israeli on the planet, its the only way to be sure
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If that what it takes to make sure Israeli civilians can go on with having anything resembling normal life, then so be it.
 
holyland red said:
Egypt doesn't agree to the presence of US peacekeepers on its side of the border. US personnel only train the Egyptians in using equipment for tracking tunnels used for smuggling. Egypt has closed the border, so there is no need for anyone to "control" it anymore. Fighting the smuggling through tunnels is within the interests of all involved, other than Hamas (and tunnel owners who make a fortune from the industry).
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I did not say peace keepers.

Egypt has closed the borders but for no logical reason, it only need police it's own side of the border with it's own people, why should it matter to them who opens the gate at the other end? The border is closed on the orders of the US, the US orders it so on behalf of the Israelis.
 
Mozza said:
I did not say peace keepers.

Egypt has closed the borders but for no logical reason, it only need police it's own side of the border with it's own people, why should it matter to them who opens the gate at the other end? The border is closed on the orders of the US, the US orders it so on behalf of the Israelis.
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It's called international agreements. There was one specifying how the Rafah crossing is run. Hamas violated the agreement when it overthrew the PA in Gaza.
 
holyland red said:
It's called international agreements. There was one specifying how the Rafah crossing is run. Hamas violated the agreement when it overthrew the PA in Gaza.
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International agreements are pretty meaningless to Israel, Israel ignores every agreement it's made regarding settlement building in the West Bank, the border is closed for no reason at all
 
Mozza said:
International agreements are pretty meaningless to Israel, Israel ignores every agreement it's made regarding settlement building in the West Bank, the border is closed for no reason at all
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They aren't to Egypt though...

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said on Tuesday that his country will keep its border crossings with Gaza Strip closed until his Palestinian counterpart Mahmud Abbas regains authority over the territory and a 2005 deal governing their operation is respected. "We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift (between Abbas and Hamas) by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and EU observers in violation of the 2005 deal" between Abbas and Israel, Mubarak said in a televised speech.
 
holyland red said:
They aren't to Egypt though...

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said on Tuesday that his country will keep its border crossings with Gaza Strip closed until his Palestinian counterpart Mahmud Abbas regains authority over the territory and a 2005 deal governing their operation is respected. "We in Egypt are not going to contribute to perpetuating the rift (between Abbas and Hamas) by opening the Rafah crossing in the absence of the Palestinian Authority and EU observers in violation of the 2005 deal" between Abbas and Israel, Mubarak said in a televised speech.
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I know the spin he's putting on it, it doesn't wash, especially seeing that the deal doesn't even involve his country
 
It hardly takes a genius to notice that a 99.9% election victory is anything but genuine. I take it you dont deny he's a US puppet though.
 
RedKaos said:
You're not an Arab, so thats a load of crap. Islam and the Arab world have also brought about great scientific and social advances, 500 years ago the Islamic world was regarded as the technical masterclass of the era. Of course times change so dont try and generalise things you dont know. And dont make up statistics.
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It's more like 800 years ago. And you can't sweep away the terrible state of Arab development just by handwaving.

Spain translates more books in a single year than the whole of the Islamic world has done in the last 1,000.

If you can't see something deeply wrong in that...

RedKaos said:
The best modern scientists were Jewish, the best early scholars were Islamic, one of the greatest biologists is an atheist, so stop relating religion and race to technical and intellectual superiority. You're ideas are beginning to sound like those of a specific mid-20th century western European regime.
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He isn't. It's a point about how societies are set up to encourage free enquiry. It's not hard to see that the vast majority of Arab nations are deficient in this.
 
Mozza said:
I know the spin he's putting on it, it doesn't wash, especially seeing that the deal doesn't even involve his country
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I don't think it's spin. The last thing he wants is a bunch of fundamentalists on his borders, and it's in his interests to keep Hamas weak.
 
nickm said:
I don't think it's spin. The last thing he wants is a bunch of fundamentalists on his borders, and it's in his interests to keep Hamas weak.
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If Hamas want to get into Egypt all they need do is blow up the border fence as they did early last year

You say it's not spin and then give a reason other than the one he stated for him not opening the border
 
Mozza said:
Bombing people, starving them, maiming them, locking them away, that makes you evil. Logically for the sake of Israels security you should kill every non Israeli on the planet, its the only way to be sure
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Mozza you really are an idiot.
 
RedKaos said:
It hardly takes a genius to notice that a 99.9% election victory is anything but genuine. I take it you dont deny he's a US puppet though.
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Bashar Assad ususally wins his elections by a similar margin, yet you don't call him a US puppet or accuse him of corruption. My guess is that by corrupt you mean not supporting Hamas terrorism.
 
RedKaos said:
It hardly takes a genius to notice that a 99.9% election victory is anything but genuine. I take it you dont deny he's a US puppet though.
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He took 88.6% of the vote in 2005, no point in resorting to hyperbole. Oops, I just remembered what thread this is, so never mind.

Although there were numerous irregularities and allegations of corruption at the time, the fact that there was an election at all was seen as progress by many observers. And even a half-rigged election makes Egypt politically progressive by regional standards - they do not have a hereditary King, Emir, or Sultan, nor did their current president inherit the job when his father died, without a popular vote. They also lack an iron-fisted Saddam-style dictator, or a Supreme Leader with dual political and religious authority.
 
holyland red said:
Bashar Assad ususally wins his elections by a similar margin, yet you don't call him a US puppet or accuse him of corruption. My guess is that by corrupt you mean not supporting Hamas terrorism.
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To be fair to Mozza, Assad only took 97.62% of the vote in 2007. Then again, he did run unopposed. 97.62% voted "yes" for his renewed term, 0.17% voted no, and 2.21% of ballots were invalid.

And they say Obama ran a shrewd campaign.
 
All these Arab leaders are corrupt, and quite a few of them like Mubarak are US puppets.

This explains it perfectly:

 
Chris H said:
He took 88.6% of the vote in 2005, no point in resorting to hyperbole. Oops, I just remembered what thread this is, so never mind.

Although there were numerous irregularities and allegations of corruption at the time, the fact that there was an election at all was seen as progress by many observers. And even a half-rigged election makes Egypt politically progressive by regional standards - they do not have a hereditary King, Emir, or Sultan, nor did their current president inherit the job when his father died, without a popular vote. They also lack an iron-fisted Saddam-style dictator, or a Supreme Leader with dual political and religious authority.
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Actually it was 99.9% in the election previous to that you listed. But if 88.6% seems democratically genuine to you then hey.

Again, im not defending certain Arab leaders other others. As I've mentioned in my previous post - they're all corrupt in one way or another, difference is some of them are US puppets (Mubarak, Abdullah Of Jordan, King Abdulla of KSA etc). I was only making the point to suggest why Egypt was so reluctant to open it's borders.
 
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