Carrick

Mozza said:
It's got nought to do with championship manager, champman lets you play any old mix of midfielders and you'll win, real football requires a midfielder that can defend
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I don't think I can recall ever seeing a central midfielder that didn't have defensive responsibilities. (The likes of Riquelme et al are not central midfielders, in case anyone throws them in as examples)

I see the need for some people to give a name to a player that protects the back four, but its way too much of a pigeonhole for my liking. Carrick does much more than that.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In real football these midfielders are called central midfielders.

In real football if you can't defend you shouldn't call yourself a central midfielder.
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They are also called defensive midfielders because it describes in fewer words what they are trying to do. Not all central midfielders can defend very well, not all can attack very well, some can do both but no matter what they always end up doing one of those two things more often than the other, it is handy then to call them by that emphasis rather then having to write a dozen words in addition to central midfielder.
 
Mozza said:
They are also called defensive midfielders because it describes in fewer words what they are trying to do. Not all central midfielders can defend very well, not all can attack very well, some can do both but no matter what they always end up doing one of those two things more often than the other, it is handy then to call them by that emphasis rather then having to write a dozen words in addition to central midfielder.
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Why add any words in addition to central midfielder? Surely it's a given that central midfielders need to attack and defend. If anything, the amount of attacking vs defending someone like Roy Keane does is defined more by the opposition than any inherent predisposition he has for either aspect of the midfield role.

If you;re describing a central midfielder nobody has ever heard of i can see a certain merit in highlighting what aspects of their game is a particular strength but otherwise it's pointless. And annoying.

You still haven't answered my question about whether you accept the concept that certain central midfielders are so well-rounded it's pointless and stupid to pigeon-hole them as an "AM" or "DM". Does every central midfielder have to be one or the other?

How do you describe Essien when he plays for his national team?
 
Bilbo said:
I don't think I can recall ever seeing a central midfielder that didn't have defensive responsibilities. (The likes of Riquelme et al are not central midfielders, in case anyone throws them in as examples)

I see the need for some people to give a name to a player that protects the back four, but its way too much of a pigeonhole for my liking. Carrick does much more than that.
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exactly , he's what you'd call a trequartista ... no word for it in England, probably why they didn't know what to do with Hoddle's genius.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You still haven't answered my question about whether you accept the concept that certain central midfielders are so well-rounded it's pointless and stupid to pigeon-hole them as an "AM" or "DM". Does every central midfielder have to be one or the other?
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Every midfielder ends up playing one role or the other, even the well rounded ones

As for Essien I've never thought of him as a defensive midfielder, he doesn't do a good enough job in the role to qualify, same with him as a right back
 
Mozza said:
As for Essien I've never thought of him as a defensive midfielder, he doesn't do a good enough job in the role to qualify, same with him as a right back
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Have you watched him play for his country?

He has been criminally wasted at Chelsea. He's the next best box to box midfielder I've seen since Roy Keane.
 
Mozza said:
Every midfielder ends up playing one role or the other, even the well rounded ones

As for Essien I've never thought of him as a defensive midfielder, he doesn't do a good enough job in the role to qualify, same with him as a right back
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So he's an attacking midfielder?
 
Brwned said:
So he's an attacking midfielder?
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Yes, for me AM covers many types of player, from Requilme to Lampard, same as DM covers different types like Makalele and Gattuso

I've never thought of Vieira as a DM, couldn't sit and protect a back 4, he's always been an am in my opinion
 
Mozza said:
Yes, for me AM covers many types of player, from Requilme to Lampard, same as DM covers different types like Makalele and Gattuso
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Another example of why this labelling malarkey is stupid. He's been played almost exclusively as a holding midfielder at Chelsea. His role for Chelsea is about as far removed from that of someone like Gerrard (who I'm guessing you would call an AM?) as it is possible to be.

This is, of course, a waste of his talents but it's a good example of why it's silly to try and pigeon-hole central midfielders.
 
Mozza said:
Yes, for me AM covers many types of player, from Requilme to Lampard, same as DM covers different types like Makalele and Gattuso
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so if you are picking a team, lampard and riquelme are interchangable ?

can you just see fat frank being the metronome for the argies ?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Another example of why this labelling malarkey is stupid. He's been played almost exclusively as a holding midfielder at Chelsea.

This is, of course, a waste of his talents but it's a good example of why it's silly to try and pigeon-hole central midfielders.
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No he's wasn't, he was with Lampard an attacking midfielder, they had Makalele behind them being dm
 
Mozza said:
Yes, for me AM covers many types of player, from Requilme to Lampard, same as DM covers different types like Makalele and Gattuso

I've never thought of Vieira as a DM, couldn't sit and protect a back 4, he's always been an am in my opinion
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That, Mozza, is the worst post I've ever seen from you.

No wonder this discussion is futile.
 
mosesfromtala said:
so if you are picking a team, lampard and riquelme are interchangable ?

can you just see fat frank being the metronome for the argies ?
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They don't play the game the same way so obviously not, Evans defends differently from Vidic but they fulfill the same function, centerback
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Another example of why this labelling malarkey is stupid. He's been played almost exclusively as a holding midfielder at Chelsea. His role for Chelsea is about as far removed from that of someone like Gerrard (who I'm guessing you would call an AM?) as it is possible to be.

This is, of course, a waste of his talents but it's a good example of why it's silly to try and pigeon-hole central midfielders.
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Not true, I had a quick check and he's played there in about a third of his games, probably a bit less.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Ooh. Missed this one amongst all your other silly posts in this thread.

Viera was an "AM" but Roy Keane was a "DM"

fecking hell, that's mental.
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Vieira played alongside Petit, then Van Bronkhurst and Silva, and he was a success, he tried to perform alongside Fabregas and was rubbish cause he was asked to be the defensive partner. At international level he played alongside Deschamps and eventually Makalele, he wasn't a dm, his game was about powering forward and linking play, closest comparison is Gerrard
 
Mozza said:
And didn't do a good enough job of it, he's not capable.
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So, using that logic, Titus Bramble isn't actually a centre-half.

Or am I missing something?

I mean, has someone changed the definitions of players positions such that nobody plays in any given position unless they have the Mozza seal of approval that thay are good enough to do so?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
See previous post.

Do keep up.
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Mikel started 24 league games last season, so if you combine that with Makelele playing 15 league games, that'd make 39 altogether.

Meaning he obviously didn't play as a holding midfielder all that much.

If you're going to be like that at least have a quick check to see if you're right first.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So, using that logic, Titus Bramble isn't actually a centre-half.

Or am I missing something?

I mean, has someone changed the definitions of players positions such that nobody plays in any given position unless they have the Mozza seal of approval that thay are good enough to do so?
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He's a rubbish right back as well, he'd make a rubbish winger, rubbish forward but I'm not going to go calling him by the positions he's not good enough for
 
Mozza said:
Vieira played alongside Petit, then Van Bronkhurst and Silva, and he was a success, he tried to perform alongside Fabregas and was rubbish cause he was asked to be the defensive partner. At international level he played alongside Deschamps and eventually Makalele, he wasn't a dm, his game was about powering forward and linking play, closest comparison is Gerrard
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When Vieira played alongside Petit they both attacked and defended. As an other example Keane and Ince did this when they played together at United.
 
Mozza said:
Yes, for me AM covers many types of player, from Requilme to Lampard, same as DM covers different types like Makalele and Gattuso

I've never thought of Vieira as a DM, couldn't sit and protect a back 4, he's always been an am in my opinion
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You have had a Scholesy moment here.
 
Mozza said:
Vieira played alongside Petit, then Van Bronkhurst and Silva, and he was a success, he tried to perform alongside Fabregas and was rubbish cause he was asked to be the defensive partner. At international level he played alongside Deschamps and eventually Makalele, he wasn't a dm, his game was about powering forward and linking play, closest comparison is Gerrard
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Edu Gaspar.

V.B was a left midfielder at Arsenal. Then a left back for Barcelona. If I remember correctly he played a different role in Scotland though, that could have been central midfield. Regardless he didnt really hold down his place. In his final season at Arsenal Edu did, in central midfield.
 
Out of interest, how would the Robson and Whiteside pairing be categorised using the DM/AM classification. Or the Robson/Wilkins pairing.
 
Ole'sbodyguard said:
Out of interest, how would the Robson and Whiteside pairing be categorised using the DM/AM classification. Or the Robson/Wilkins pairing.
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Four central midfielders, in the proper Keane/Essien/Ince sense, with whiteside maybe more of a FMAM and Butch a FMDM.


On this point I think Gerrard is a classic CM player but has been hampered by Rafa's mistrust of his talent. So he shunted him up a bit.
 
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