lady thatcher

Partizan said:
I'm 54, and she's a cnut.
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At your age are you saying she's a cnut you would or a cnut you wouldn't. ;)

I'm 37 and my family are now better off because of being under her. My working class dad bought our council flat in the mid 80s and has recently sold it for, basically, his pension. I got a free education plus grant money to get myself a decent-ish job in the mid-90s.

Under this labour (or any government now, they're all the same) I worry for my kids who will be overworked, over-taxed and under pensioned.
 
Dumpstar said:
At your age are you saying she's a cnut you would or a cnut you wouldn't. ;)

I'm 37 and my family are now better off because of being under her. My working class dad bought our council flat in the mid 80s and has recently sold it for, basically, his pension. I got a free education plus grant money to get myself a decent-ish job in the mid-90s.

Under this labour (or any government now, they're all the same) I worry for my kids who will be overworked, over-taxed and under pensioned.
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And sadly because of that policy no further council houses were allowed to be built with the proceeds of the sell off.

There are now very few council owned houses in comparison to what there were.
 
Dumpstar said:
At your age are you saying she's a cnut you would or a cnut you wouldn't. ;)

I'm 37 and my family are now better off because of being under her. My working class dad bought our council flat in the mid 80s and has recently sold it for, basically, his pension. I got a free education plus grant money to get myself a decent-ish job in the mid-90s.

Under this labour (or any government now, they're all the same) I worry for my kids who will be overworked, over-taxed and under pensioned.
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The sell off of council houses was the first step on the property "boom" that allowed morons from Londons East End to trade up and up until they owned Essex with all their boorish uncivilised behaviour.
Of course the bubble burst.
And some did well and some HOPEFULLY got caught out and lost a packet.:lol:They deserve it. Greedy Bastards.

At times I really miss the Politics of Envy.
 
scream said:
I agree (did I really say that):D

Having lived through her time I don't recall it being very good thats all.

The comapny I started at had 4,500 people employed when I started and only 1,500 when I left, all during Maggie's reign.

I do think people paint too high a picture of her, it depends where you were brought up during her time I guess.
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I agree. I hope you can tell that I am not a huge Maggie fan. I do however think that for the country as a whole, rather than individuals in former mining areas for e.g., she was probably a necessary "evil", at least initially, and despite all the things I can't stand about her and her governments I can't bring myself to simply hate her blindly.

Labour were also virtually unelectable until after Kinnock was replaced.
 
ralphie88 said:
Er... no.

Thatcherism departed completely from the post-war census style of government. Major/Blair/Brown all followed the Thatcherist mode of governing, not the post-war consensus. This is pretty basic stuff really.
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And many other countries have pretty much followed as well.
 
Thatcher to Pinochet:

"I'm also very much aware that it is you who brought democracy to Chile, you set up a constitution suitable for democracy, you put it into effect. Elections were held, and then, in accordance with the result, you stepped down... "

Then there was Westland and, of course, the Belgrano which was sunk as peace negotiations threatened to succeed. The unfortunate ship was sent to the bottom, not on the orders of the task force commander, but on the orders of Thatcher's "war cabinet."

Thatcher was the ultimate class warrior and her government did not shrink from hiring people like McGregor, David Hart and Tim Bell to crush the miners in 1984. Unemployment under Thatcher reached 4 million at one point and benefit was slashed, impacting severely the lives of Britain's working poor. The there was the poll tax, the sus laws, the Brixton riots, Toxteth, and Moss Side. She even claimed to have brought 'sanity to Fleet Street' which, of course, meant the destruction of the print unions and the rise of people like Rupert Murdoch and Robert Maxwell.

What a great legacy.
 
I am of course unhappy about comparing Thatcher with Adolf Hitler.......one of them was after all the incarnation of evil ......still enough about Thatcher.

As they said about Nazi Germany
they came for the Communists and I did nothing
They came for the Democrats... I did nothing
They came for the Jews..I did nothing.
When they came for ME.....there was nobody left to do anything for me.

The comparison is that when Thatcher went for the steel workers......miners....print unions....fire brigades.........nobody really did anything.
When she privatised everything that moved (the railways).......it was ok until she started getting to rural bus services, closing post offices, bank branches whatever......or creating that climate at least......until she ran out of friends with the Poll Tax.
 
Fitzjames said:
I am of course unhappy about comparing Thatcher with Adolf Hitler.......one of them was after all the incarnation of evil ......still enough about Thatcher.
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Member 5225 said:
interesting, so am I right in assuming she was more capitalist than socialist hence the hatred?
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:lol:

These comments made me chuckle. On the last comment want to point out not all us youngsters are completely idiotic.

Melbourne Red said:
What was Thatcher's position on immigrants?
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From what I remember (from school) she wasn't so keen. Not as bad as Enoch mind but she did impose strong limits particularly on Commonwealth immigration.
 
skeeta said:
Thatcher destroyed the British economy, and thats all to it. Thatcher has always been totally incompetent crap.
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Erm? That is one thing she didn't do. However she achieved it, the economy was a train wreck before she took power and she massively improved things. There are all sorts of things you can accuse her of but not that.
 
Moriarty said:
Thatcher to Pinochet:

"I'm also very much aware that it is you who brought democracy to Chile, you set up a constitution suitable for democracy, you put it into effect. Elections were held, and then, in accordance with the result, you stepped down... "

Then there was Westland and, of course, the Belgrano which was sunk as peace negotiations threatened to succeed. The unfortunate ship was sent to the bottom, not on the orders of the task force commander, but on the orders of Thatcher's "war cabinet."

Thatcher was the ultimate class warrior and her government did not shrink from hiring people like McGregor, David Hart and Tim Bell to crush the miners in 1984. Unemployment under Thatcher reached 4 million at one point and benefit was slashed, impacting severely the lives of Britain's working poor. The there was the poll tax, the sus laws, the Brixton riots, Toxteth, and Moss Side. She even claimed to have brought 'sanity to Fleet Street' which, of course, meant the destruction of the print unions and the rise of people like Rupert Murdoch and Robert Maxwell.

What a great legacy.
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The print unions deserved to be destroyed. You read about some of the crap they used to get up to. They asked for it and they deservedly got it.

And the miners picked a fight they could not win. Scargill's arrogance is what did for them.
 
nickm said:
The print unions deserved to be destroyed. You read about some of the crap they used to get up to. They asked for it and they deservedly got it.

And the miners picked a fight they could not win. Scargill's arrogance is what did for them.
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interestingly loads of posters here blindly have a go at Maggie - except Wibble - blaming here for her legacy but none have blamed Wilson and Callaghan for the crap they landed the country in afore she took power. One can only wince at how far down the country would have slipped if those two or their successors had continued on their road of appeasement with the TUC.
 
Wibble said:
Erm? That is one thing she didn't do. However she achieved it, the economy was a train wreck before she took power and she massively improved things. There are all sorts of things you can accuse her of but not that.
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now Wibble stop being so bloody reasonable - you´ll give some of the Maggie thumpers the wrong idea of history ;)
 
topper said:
interestingly loads of posters here blindly have a go at Maggie - except Wibble - blaming here for her legacy but none have blamed Wilson and Callaghan for the crap they landed the country in afore she took power. One can only wince at how far down the country would have slipped if those two or their successors had continued on their road of appeasement with the TUC.
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Power cuts, binmen on strike, bodies not getting buried, the 3 day week, 17% inflation, widespread strikes, deflation etc etc etc

It was a horrible time.

Plus the cold war which wasn't anyone's fault. Not even the Romans'.
 
nickm said:
The print unions deserved to be destroyed. You read about some of the crap they used to get up to. They asked for it and they deservedly got it.

And the miners picked a fight they could not win. Scargill's arrogance is what did for them.
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And where exactly did you read about what the print workers got up to? Not in the papers by any chance was it? Anyway, what is wrong with well-off workers? My dad was a print worker and saw his pension pissed away by one of those "reactionary newspaper magnates" as Paul Foot called them. Now we've got papers with standards in the gutter and owners - and bear in mind that they are few - amass wealth beyond imagination.

Scargill's "arrogance" is not what did for the miners. Thatcher backed down in 1981 when the miners threatened to strike over pit closures. In 1984, after stockpiling coal, she let loose the heavy mob under McGregor and Hart who set up a "Working Miner's Committee" that was made up of scabs and strike-breakers. In excess of £100,000 was raised (in those days that was a very tidy sum) and was backed by newspapers, television, the police, especially the Special Branch.

It was a lack of solidarity that sunk the miners in the end. The Nottinghamshire pits remained open. But in the mining villages, ideas that had lain dormnat for some time were resurrected. As Paul Foot wrote in 1985:
"The seeds of a new society founded on co-operation, common interest and human effort bent to human need were sown in the struggle against the old one." That, in itself, was a victory.
 
Wibble said:
Power cuts, binmen on strike, bodies not getting buried, the 3 day week, 17% inflation, widespread strikes, deflation etc etc etc

It was a horrible time.

Plus the cold war which wasn't anyone's fault. Not even the Romans'.
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ah the good ol days eh Wibble :D er thank God for Maggie ;)
 
I wouldn't go quiet that far.
 
Wibble said:
I wouldn't go quiet that far.
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a serious question Wibble - who else on either side of the political divide could have done what she did and broke the unions ? I look at the Labour Shadow Cabinet and the Conservative cabinet when these events took place and I see nobody that had the balls to do what she did
 
Wibble said:
Erm? That is one thing she didn't do. However she achieved it, the economy was a train wreck before she took power and she massively improved things. There are all sorts of things you can accuse her of but not that.
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Mentioning train wrecks when discussing Thatcher's legacy is quite apt for a start.
 
Dumpstar said:
Under this labour (or any government now, they're all the same) I worry for my kids who will be overworked, over-taxed and under pensioned.
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Actually, they now have the protection of the Working Time Directive and The Minimum Wage Act - both post Major. They are also guaranteed an extra week's annual paid holiday.

Improvement of labour rights is probably the only decent thing New Labour actually did.
 
topper said:
a serious question Wibble - who else on either side of the political divide could have done what she did and broke the unions ? I look at the Labour Shadow Cabinet and the Conservative cabinet when these events took place and I see nobody that had the balls to do what she did
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Norman Tebbit and Kieth Joseph spring to mind. Although of course it was Ian MacGregor who really put the boot into the Unions.

One of the myths about Thatcherism is that Thatcher was always at the forefront of it. On a number of issues - the Miners Strike and Privatisation for a start - she was actually seen as dragging her feet. In terms of Privatisation in particular, Major and Blair went much further than she ever dared.
 
Moriarty said:
And where exactly did you read about what the print workers got up to? Not in the papers by any chance was it? Anyway, what is wrong with well-off workers? .
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Nowt wrong with being well paid but what the Unions in those days got were increases for their members without giving back any extra in productivity or allowing in new technologies.

I recall our Steel Coal and Car industries thriving at one stage but in pre Thatcher days they had their economic lives made even more difficult because - in the main - the unions pushed for more and more for less or resisted technologies which would have improved productivity and meant some job losses. By the time the unions were sorted it was too late - most plants were in terminal decline and even more job losses resulted.
 
ralphie88 said:
Norman Tebbit and Kieth Joseph spring to mind. Although of course it was Ian MacGregor who really put the boot into the Unions.

One of the myths about Thatcherism is that Thatcher was always at the forefront of it. On a number of issues - the Miners Strike and Privatisation for a start - she was actually seen as dragging her feet. In terms of Privatisation in particular, Major and Blair went much further than she ever dared.
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they were followers and never leaders

Union singular - NUM I believe - only because he was backed by Thatcher

damned if she did damned if she didn´t

because she made it easier for them
 
topper said:
they were followers and never leaders
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Well of course, your question was about the shadow cabinet, so by definition they would be 'followers' rather than leaders. Joseph was heavily backed for the leadership in the late 70s wasn't he? Was just bit too much of a fruit-loop (even by Thatcher's crazy standards).
 
ralphie88 said:
Well of course, your question was about the shadow cabinet, so by definition they would be 'followers' rather than leaders. Joseph was heavily backed for the leadership in the late 70s wasn't he? Was just bit too much of a fruit-loop (even by Thatcher's crazy standards).
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as crazy as Foot who was even crazier than Thatcher
 
Wibble said:
I am naturally inclined to vote Labour but when she came to power Labour were unelectable and the Labour movement behind them deeply destructive. The winter of discontent was the final nail in the Labour government's coffin with inflation out of control and the economy shrinking. Strikes, power cuts and a 3 day work week were the norm.

That she came in and turned the country round, making many much needed changes to the country and the economy, many changes now being accepted as normal by Labour administrations around the world, is to her credit. The way she made those changes however weren't always or even often necessarily desirable. Whether such change could have been achieved another way is debatable either way and I don't pretend to known the correct answer.

Indeed many of her achievements leave me "conflicted" as our Yank friends would say. The Unions needed to be reigned in but the social destruction in many parts of the country that resulted from the miners defeat isn't exactly an edifying sight and that some economic pits ended up being sacrificed negated the government's stance somewhat. Economic change was much needed but the unemployment used as a payoff for low inflation was pretty brutal and perhaps it was only oil revenue that prevent a virtually permanently high rate of unemployment occurring. The Falklands was another incident which I view in a similar way. It is quite right and proper that a nation stands up to protect it's citizen's and whatever Argentina's claim to the Islands they were British and occupied by people who were and wanted to be British. However, we knew that the ownership was disputed and if we had been less diplomatically clueless the invasion wouldn't have happened at all. So the death toll on both sides for what was in effect a diplomatic screw up (which we can lay at the feet of the Foreign Office rather than politicians directly) doesn't make me want to break into a chorus of Land of Hope and Glory. And this was all against a background of the Cold War where Thatcher and Reagan actually did rather well all in all. Her later years were a bit of a disaster with the poll tax sticking in my mind particularly. The idea, which sounded good, was to make tax more equitable and not just payed by home owners at the local level. That it ended up as an administrative nightmare that didn't save many people much if anything and costs everyone else more was a pretty disastrous outcome IMO.

Most people either love or hate her along party lines but I am far less certain. The best I can do it to say that I think she was somewhere between needed and necessary at least initially. I doubt that (the last year excepted) the UK's economy would be what it has been without her starting it all but I am also far from convinced that all of the social changes that she brought about have been good for the country in a general sense.
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Thatcher did not beat the miners. Rather it was the idiot of a Leader, Scargill who pushed too much and also called a strike near Summer and when the country had plenty of reserves of coal.
She stopped free milk in Schools, she brought privatisation. She brought in Section 28 which prevented many Teachers and other people to even talk of homosexuality and help children who would have been so confused.
I hated her with a passion, but that said, she was a strong leader and perfect for comedy. (Remember the Spitting Image "What about the vegetables?" line!!)
It is hard cos when she took over the country was in a complete mess and I guess she did help to a certain extent. In fact when the time of New Labour came, I voted Lib Dems cos as far as I could see voting Tory or New Labour was tantamount to the same thing.
 
sparky said:
Thatcher did not beat the miners. Rather it was the idiot of a Leader, Scargill who pushed too much and also called a strike near Summer and when the country had plenty of reserves of coal.
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The truth is somewhere in between. Scargill fell into a trap. Thatcher - well MacGregor probably - knew exactly what she was doing.
 
Sunny Jim said:
Probably for breaking the power of unions and making this country more bearable to live. Some people forgot about blackouts in 70's...yeah cuz GB was so fecking rich they could afford to switch electricity off after 6 pm.
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Depends where you were from mate and what you were doing.

If your livelihood depending on mining, or manufacturing then it got a lot less bearable. You probably ended up as one of the 3m+ unemployed.

If you liked getting trains at a reasonable price, or having accountable public services, or being able to send your kid to its local school, or being able to walk down the street without a CCTV camera following you, it got worse. And if you had the misfortune to fall ill and wanted to use the NHS it got worse.

Oh, and if you were a football fan it got a lot, lot worse.
 
Sunny Jim said:
Probably for breaking the power of unions and making this country more bearable to live. Some people forgot about blackouts in 70's...yeah cuz GB was so fecking rich they could afford to switch electricity off after 6 pm.
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I've never forgotten the blackouts of the 70s, nor the three day week. I was preparing for my mocks and remember sitting in a freezing classroom with several other kids trying our best to discuss Julius Caesar or the War of the Roses. Some teachers decided to invite pupils into their homes to continue lessons, providing hot tea and biscuits. They were heroes one and all.

I remember Heath's television broadcast (they made sure the power was on that day) asking the electorate to back him against the NUM. He had the look of a desperate man. My Grandfather watched him and said "there'll be a Labour government in before the end of the year."

The miners under Joe Gormley had a righteous claim. After Heath was ousted, I think it was Michael Foot who oversaw the Pay Board Report which broke down just how the miner's pay had dropped between 1972 and 1974 because inflation under Heath's government was out of control. What's more, Foot introduced a scheme whereby miners suffereing from pneumoconiosis would receive compensation. I still find that last bit hard to believe. In the 1970s, men were going underground to dig coal, inhaling all manner of filth and carcinogenic material and yet receiving no help when they fell ill and suffered with that awful disease. What the hell is a freezing classroom compared to that?
 
ralphie88 said:
Depends where you were from mate and what you were doing.

If your livelihood depending on mining, or manufacturing then it got a lot less bearable. You probably ended up as one of the 3m+ unemployed.

If you liked getting trains at a reasonable price, or having accountable public services, or being able to send your kid to its local school, or being able to walk down the street without a CCTV camera following you, it got worse. And if you had the misfortune to fall ill and wanted to use the NHS it got worse.

Oh, and if you were a football fan it got a lot, lot worse.
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What the hell has living in UK in 2009 got to do with this thread
 
topper said:
What the hell has living in UK in 2009 got to do with this thread
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Because - as I explained on the previous page - we are following a Thatcherite agenda under New Labour (although technically waiting lists for the NHS have dropped).
 
ralphie88 said:
Because - as I explained on the previous page - we are following a Thatcherite agenda under New Labour (although technically waiting lists for the NHS have dropped).
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so you agree that its New Labour fault we are in the mess now and that New Labour are Thatcherites in disguise :lol: and suggest perhaps the the Scargill Prescott and Scanlan side of Old Labour would have done better ?
 
topper said:
so you agree that its New Labour fault we are in the mess now and that New Labour are Thatcherites in disguise :lol: and suggest perhaps the the Scargill Prescott and Scanlan side of Old Labour would have done better ?
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well I agree that tonys new labour are effectivley thatcher light... its basically thatcherism but with a smarmy worm instread of a detestable cnut as leader...

as for Old labour doing better... well I'll venture the argument that they probably couldnt have done much worse?...
 
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