Serious Thread: The Liverpool Situation

I think Hodgson is a pretty cool guy. eh destroys our club and doesnt afraid of anything.
 
Roy will no doubt become the fall guy for this fiasco, and i am sure the next man in charge will come with bags packed full of nostalgia, History and promise. He will deliver a speech about past era's and Liverpool's once great position, names like Paisly, Daglish, Hanson, and Rush will be mentioned, they will all sing that bloody awful song...

And the cycle of disappointment and bitterness will continue.

Truth is the club is an internal mess, stadium development, youth development, wage structure, squad, unrealistic fan ambition.
Times have changed, and Liverpool have not adapted very well.
Bring in O'Neil, and give him five years to restructure the club.
 
towcester_red said:
I thought Insua was a decent little player, he is on a loan with option to buy I believe...
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Apparently, he is coming back from loan in january.

I'd take him any day of the week over PFK. Both are terrible defensively, but Insua is at least good going forwards, is young enough to improve and actually counts as homegrown talent.
 
towcester_red said:
To me, they look exactly the same as they did last year. But you cant mention that around a scouser before they launch a pathetic defence of Rafa.
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Yes theyre no better than last years Liverpool, which kinda proved hodgdon is not the right man for the job.

Two choices for the club. Either they give hodgson a chance to make some signings in Jan and see what direction his 'own' Liverpool squad goes in or they decide he's not food enough and replace him.
 
B9 said:
Apparently, he is coming back from loan in january.

I'd take him any day of the week over PFK. Both are terrible defensively, but Insua is at least good going forwards, is young enough to improve and actually counts as homegrown talent.
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Does he? Won't this loan stop that being the case or has he been there 3 uninterrupted years?
 
B9 said:
Apparently, he is coming back from loan in january.

I'd take him any day of the week over PFK. Both are terrible defensively, but Insua is at least good going forwards, is young enough to improve and actually counts as homegrown talent.
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Possibly homegrown but I'm not sure that you could describe him as a talent.
 
CircusMonkey said:
Roy will no doubt become the fall guy for this fiasco, and i am sure the next man in charge will come with bags packed full of nostalgia, History and promise. He will deliver a speech about past era's and Liverpool's once great position, names like Paisly, Daglish, Hanson, and Rush will be mentioned, they will all sing that bloody awful song...

And the cycle of disappointment and bitterness will continue.

Truth is the club is an internal mess, stadium development, youth development, wage structure, squad, unrealistic fan ambition.
Times have changed, and Liverpool have not adapted very well.
Bring in O'Neil, and give him five years to restructure the club.
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This is the key point. They as a club and a set of supporters seem to think history is enough and that they are entitled to success based on their history. Their record of bringing youth through is dire, they are a huge club still but need to be more realistic. Come January Im certain RAWK will be full of Bring back Kenny, sign Sneider, Benzema, Iniesta type threads, rather than focusing on more realistic goals. its not 1984 chaps.
 
I'm sorry but I can't believe anyone looks at the starting lineup last night and thinks they are drastically underachieving. Reina, gerrard and Torres are the only ones that would get anywhere near the top five sides. They have a couple of capable players in skrtel and meireles and the rest in horrendous mid table dross.
 
RedRichio said:
I'm sorry but I can't believe anyone looks at the starting lineup last night and thinks they are drastically underachieving. Reina, gerrard and Torres are the only ones that would get anywhere near the top five sides. They have a couple of capable players in skrtel and meireles and the rest in horrendous mid table dross.
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I have to agree with this. While Roy has disappointed me (in terms that I thought he was going to do good), I think the blame should still go to Rafa and his signings.

Every single man that has worked for Liverpool in the past 7 years (bar some of the players) has put his own grain of sand to take the club to where it is today, and struggling.
 
MUFC07 said:
I have to agree with this. While Roy has disappointed me (in terms that I thought he was going to do good), I think the blame should still go to Rafa and his signings.

Every single man that has worked for Liverpool in the past 7 years (bar some of the players) has put his own grain of sand to take the club to where it is today, and struggling.
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7 of the 11 players who played last night were in the Liverpool side that won 4-1 at OT in March of last year. Riera, Hyppia, Mascherano, & Carragher being the notable exceptions. Most of them also played a few days earlier in the 4-0 thrashing of Real Madrid in the CL.

Hardly the form of the relegation style of football we get served up by Uncle Roy week after week.
 
I think this from the Grauniad is a pretty good analysis

Liverpool's gold standard has been debased by army of tin soldiers | Paul Hayward | Football | The Guardian

Did Carol Konchesky really call them "Scouse scum"!!!

When Paul Konchesky joined Liverpool this summer a rival Premier League manager invoked the ghost of Julian Dicks, another bald English left-back from central casting. "He's not a Liverpool player," the manager remarked of Konchesky, who was jeered from the pitch in last night's 1-0 defeat at home to Wolves, days after his mother had allegedly called the club's fans "Scouse scum" in a hastily erased Facebook post.

"A Liverpool player" is an instantly evocative title that evokes Dalglish, Keegan, Souness, Lawrenson and Rush. The question of who is – and who demonstrably is not – a candidate for this deification has exercised the minds of Liverpool supporters since Graeme Souness handed the shirts of living saints to several comparative journeymen in his three-year reign from 1991-94.

Konchesky's acquisition from Fulham by Roy Hodgson was a rational attempt to solve a positional shortcoming and is cited here only because Liverpool's deep structural weakness is easy to identify. In the 20 years since they last won the league title, an ocean liner of substandard or under-achieving footballers has disgorged its human cargo at the Mersey docks and sent it up to Anfield, where the team now sit in 12th place in the Premier League, three points above the relegation zone.

On his own journey from the Thames to the Mersey, Hodgson saw straightaway that Liverpool's first- and reserve-team squads were suffocating under the weight of mediocre and unused personnel. A reader of highbrow fiction, the former Fulham manager used a fine phrase to describe the surfeit of drifters he came across while Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher and Dirk Kuyt did most of the hard work. Hodgson called them "purposeless".

Critics will say he has added to the ranks of the purposeless by taking delivery of Konchesky, Christian Poulsen and Milan Jovanovic (Joe Cole and Raul Meireles are of a higher calibre and still have time to assert their talents). But equally Hodgson could point to his excellent rebuilding work at Fulham and his shrewd eye for a hidden jewel. He could also say Liverpool are deluded by old glories (Carol Konchesky said that, too) if they think the budget exists to spend like Manchester City after so many expensive blow-outs in the transfer market.

Simply: Liverpool have recruited dozens of duds over the last 10 seasons while Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea have signed very few. The Kop, the team's best players and Hodgson himself are toiling against this debilitating imbalance, which has become manageable only in bursts: first when Rafael Benítez's team won the 2005 Champions League and then when Gerrard, Carragher, Pepe Reina, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres and Javier Mascherano gelled to propel the 2008-09 side to second place in the Premier League with 86 points.

Any professional footballer will tell you a trophy-winning team needs a decisive ratio of gifted players and committed winners. Benítez's best side possessed that magical half-dozen. But when Alonso and Mascherano left, Torres lost interest and Gerrard and Carragher were hampered increasingly by injuries, the mediocrity all around them again became Liverpool's defining characteristic.

There is no memory game on red Merseyside quite like the recitation of nearly-men and no-names – starting with the forwards. Sean Dundee, Erik Meijer, Florent Sinama-Pongolle, Fernando Morientes, Titi Camara, Ryan Babel, David Ngog and Andriy Voronin demand inclusion. In other wide or attacking midfield positions room would be found for Anthony Le Tallec, Albert Riera, Mark González, Jermaine Pennant and Bruno Cheyrou. Defenders worth a mention are Philipp Degen, Sotirios Kyrgiakos and Andrea Dossena. This random selection from a lengthy list leaves out many obscure French or Spanish purchases who barely sniffed first-team action. The vast scale of waste is a huge rolling problem for a club once renowned for precision in the scouting department. Each wave of mistakes creates a new challenge of culling and dispersal, restricts budgets and overloads those players capable of vying for titles with the responsibility of carrying passengers.

The homegrown Liverpool contingent have complained privately for years about this annual influx of substandard punts. A scattergun transfer policy has conspired with the failure of the academy system to produce heirs to Gerrard, Carragher, Michael Owen and Robbie Fowler. Under extreme pressure to correct the slide of Benítez's last campaign, Hodgson tries to perform major surgery on a bloated workforce while bad results whip up a wrecking gale.

The emotional disengagement of Torres bites at the hopes of supporters because he is the one world-class foreign import still wearing the Liver bird, unless Reina creeps in. Called to the stand, Gérard Houllier and Benítez would defend themselves with weighty evidence. Houllier won a domestic and European cup treble in 2001 and Benítez took them to two Champions League finals (winning one) from 2005-07. Neither, though, could bounce the team any higher than second in the Premier League.

Both surrendered that momentum straight after building it. Houllier spent £20m on Salif Diao, Cheyrou and El Hadji Diouf in the summer before Liverpool fell back to fifth (2002) and Benítez went from second in 2009 to seventh 12 months later. The reason, in both cases, was a dilution rather than a deepening of the talent pool.

So an exasperated Anfield crowd mock the manager ("Hodgson for England" they sing) while Liverpool arrive in a new year with their worst points total since Don Welsh's team were relegated in 1953-54. The club's new American owners, who have no experience of making football decisions, must calculate whether to back Hodgson's cull or simply transfer a chronic structural problem to another manager.

In the past 10 years major transfer miscalculations by Arsenal, Chelsea and United can be counted on the fingers of two hands. At Liverpool they cram the picture. The Noughties were an age of mass auditions and experimentation, and culpability extends to owners and directors.

Unveiling Ron Yeats, Bill Shankly invited journalists "to walk around" the "colossus" he had signed. Yeats was "a Liverpool player" in the intended sense. Not just good, but special. There are too few now.
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redman5 said:
7 of the 11 players who played last night were in the Liverpool side that won 4-1 at OT in March of last year. Riera, Hyppia, Mascherano, & Carragher being the notable exceptions. Most of them also played a few days earlier in the 4-0 thrashing of Real Madrid in the CL.

Hardly the form of the relegation style of football we get served up by Uncle Roy week after week.
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So what? You just picked out three games and that's supposed to be a decent comparison of what's happened over seasons? It's selective picking of stats and results that lowers the discussion to absurd levels.

Why not pick a few of the horrible results Rafa served up with the same players? It's as valid.

Liverpool have three top notch players. Gerard, Torres and Reina. One is getting old and it's shows. One appears to be a pouty child. And there's Reina.

The fact that Carragher is still starting says it all. He has looked old and out of his depth for quite some time. Even Arsenal got rid of Sol Cambell when the time came.

We also wondered about all those young players Rafa was buying during his reign. He seemed to snatch up every teenager in Europe for a while. Now it appears he was just throwing shit against the wall and hoping something stuck.

Liverpool are overburdened with expensive mediocrity and that's the problem.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
So what? You just picked out three games and that's supposed to be a decent comparison of what's happened over seasons? It's selective picking of stats and results that lowers the discussion to absurd levels.

Why not pick a few of the horrible results Rafa served up with the same players? It's as valid.

Liverpool have three top notch players. Gerard, Torres and Reina. One is getting old and it's shows. One appears to be a pouty child. And there's Reina.

The fact that Carragher is still starting says it all. He has looked old and out of his depth for quite some time. Even Arsenal got rid of Sol Cambell when the time came.

We also wondered about all those young players Rafa was buying during his reign. He seemed to snatch up every teenager in Europe for a while. Now it appears he was just throwing shit against the wall and hoping something stuck.

Liverpool are overburdened with expensive mediocrity and that's the problem.
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Exactly. Liverpool were great against 10 men that season, something which seemed to benefit them an extraordinary amount of times.

11 vs. 11 they were getting beat by the likes of Middlesborough and suffering embarrassing draws to relegation fodder.

And then in 09/10, they were regularly getting embarrassed by everyone. Roy's continued that trend.
 
Torres and Pool look set for an amicable divorce in the summer. The relationship is no longer benefitting either party. They may not get that much for him and may not be in a strong position to decide who they sell him to. Any top club is a possible destination, even United, Arsenal or Real.
 
surf said:
Torres and Pool look set for an amicable divorce in the summer. The relationship is no longer benefitting either party. They may not get that much for him and may not be in a strong position to decide who they sell him to. Any top club is a possible destination, even United, Arsenal or Real.
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They will never sell to us.

Not sure when his contract expires...if it is not City or the russians, Spain probably.
 
Carragher and (from the looks of things) Gerrard are past it and they haven't been replaced either as players or as leaders.

Torres, after one glorious season, has reverted to type and become the player he was at Atletico, and is with the Spanish national team - mediocre for weeks and yet capable of something great, every now and again.

Hodgson inherited a team that was lacking in confidence and feeling sorry for itself and he couldn't fix either of those things - maybe he hasn't got the nerve for it, maybe he just isn't used to players with this kind of sense of entitlement. Meanwhile opponents, even Wolves, see them as vulnerable and the crowd are on their cases. The mediocre away form of previous seasons has become their home form.

I'll resist the temptation to laugh. At least in this thread.
 
jojojo said:
Carragher and (from the looks of things) Gerrard are past it and they haven't been replaced either as players or as leaders.
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These comments make me wonder how many people just throw random opinions that seem to look nice out there.

Gerrard has been our best player whenever he's been fit to play this season. Just about the only outfield player exempt from criticism this season based on performance.
 
B9 said:
These comments make me wonder how many people just throw random opinions that seem to look nice out there.

Gerrard has been our best player whenever he's been fit to play this season. Just about the only outfield player exempt from criticism this season based on performance.
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Well actually I'd say your standout player by a long long way (and many of your own fans agree it seems) has been Lucas.
 
I'd be dreading Saturday if I was a dipper (heaven forbid). Bolton(h) then Blackburn (a) before facing us in the cup and then Everton. I just sense this is getting uglier for them. If they come out of that lot wanting, I wouldn't want to be poor old Woy ( although I wouldn't mind the handout he'd get) It has the distinct whiff of United before relegation and it could easily become a reality. Regarding the blame game, it's absurd to absolve benitez of any wrongdoing as the rot clearly set in under his watch but it appears Woy was not the right choice even though it's ridiculously early, given his hands are largely tied behind his back. If the rot continues, for me their best bet would be O'Neill. I wouldn't want him here because I don't think he has what it takes at the top level but he should get them a CL place, if not this season then maybe next. Dalglish? I think that's rather pathetic. At best he's done well with Jack Walkers millions when nobody expected it but since then? In fact, I'd like to see him take over to explode the myth of him being a top manager.

The ownership issues haven't helped but this is all about years of mismanagement. Long may it continue.

Pardon me whilst I snigger.

Oh feck it......:lol::lol::lol:

That's better.
 
It saddens me in a way to see Liverpool floundering. A weak liverpool is bad for the premier league and for English football. I don't like the fact two yanks have totally ruined the club and sucked so much money out of them. You can blame Rafa or blame Roy but all the problems started with the introduction of Hicks And Gillet
Unless Liverpool get rescued by a sugar daddy then I don't see much hope of them being able to compete for a long while
 
phelans shorts said:
Well actually I'd say your standout player by a long long way (and many of your own fans agree it seems) has been Lucas.
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No. Definitely the most improved, but he, like largely everyone (bar Reina and Gerrard really) under Hodgson's tenure have a disturbing tendency to turn utterly dogshite as soon as we play away.

I am hoping he, and the rest, will be cured of their Hodgsonitis when the Hodge is finally kicked out and we can see if he can translate his home form into genuine consistency or whether there is more to it than the curse of roy hodgson.

Lucas stands out because his contributions have been the most noteworthy as an unsung hero stepping up his game. Gerrard is a world class player who has been keeping a steady level without setting the world alight surrounded by a sea of uninspired dross. Nothing much to write home about but it is still enough to make him comfortably our best outfield player this season.

I think Lucas had a better shout for being better than Gerrard last season, tbh. Stevie was awful and Lucas steadily improving.
 
I know you're a bit too young Dave but you lot weren't saddened to see us floundering the early 70s- funny that eh?


how much money did Benitez piss down the grid? Even if they had any more to give him, he'd've just continued with his masterplan of destroying the club - they've had as much, if not more than we, Chav$ or the Bummers have since they took over
 
Denis' cuff said:
I know you're a bit too young Dave but you lot weren't saddened to see us floundering the early 70s- funny that eh?


how much money did Benitez piss down the grid? Even if they had any more to give him, he'd've just continued with his masterplan of destroying the club - they've had as much, if not more than we, Chav$ or the Bummers have since they took over
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Would United floundering be good for English football? well imo no it would not
Would United floundering be good for Manchester city fans? :smirk:

As much as we would have a laugh at our bitterest rivals suffering in the long run it would not benefit anyone. Yes I would have a laugh if United ever got relegated but I know what its like to go without the derby and its not something I would wish to go through again. The same goes for Liverpool, whats the point of having a manc- scouse rivalry if the scousers are not worth bothering with? I would much rather have an away day at Anfield than at Wigan or Bolton etc
 
newtonheathdave said:
It saddens me in a way to see Liverpool floundering. A weak liverpool is bad for the premier league and for English football. I don't like the fact two yanks have totally ruined the club and sucked so much money out of them. You can blame Rafa or blame Roy but all the problems started with the introduction of Hicks And Gillet
Unless Liverpool get rescued by a sugar daddy then I don't see much hope of them being able to compete for a long while
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Its not like Hicks/Gillette didn't give Rafa the money...

I'd blame it on the coach... He had the funds, he had the choices, he just completely ruined them all...

The real breakdown was the Xabi + Rafa fight, it completely ruined their team... Aquilani ? Meireles ? Lucas ? None of them were up to the task...
 
redman5 said:
7 of the 11 players who played last night were in the Liverpool side that won 4-1 at OT in March of last year. Riera, Hyppia, Mascherano, & Carragher being the notable exceptions. Most of them also played a few days earlier in the 4-0 thrashing of Real Madrid in the CL.

Hardly the form of the relegation style of football we get served up by Uncle Roy week after week.
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AlwaysRedwood said:
So what? You just picked out three games and that's supposed to be a decent comparison of what's happened over seasons? It's selective picking of stats and results that lowers the discussion to absurd levels.

Why not pick a few of the horrible results Rafa served up with the same players? It's as valid.

Liverpool have three top notch players. Gerard, Torres and Reina. One is getting old and it's shows. One appears to be a pouty child. And there's Reina.

The fact that Carragher is still starting says it all. He has looked old and out of his depth for quite some time. Even Arsenal got rid of Sol Cambell when the time came.

We also wondered about all those young players Rafa was buying during his reign. He seemed to snatch up every teenager in Europe for a while. Now it appears he was just throwing shit against the wall and hoping something stuck.

Liverpool are overburdened with expensive mediocrity and that's the problem.
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Kraftwerker said:
Exactly. Liverpool were great against 10 men that season, something which seemed to benefit them an extraordinary amount of times.

11 vs. 11 they were getting beat by the likes of Middlesborough and suffering embarrassing draws to relegation fodder.

And then in 09/10, they were regularly getting embarrassed by everyone. Roy's continued that trend.
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There's the answer, but I'd like to add that you mentioned Riera, Hyppia, Mascherano, & Carragher, which actually could bust up any possible line up you can have.
 
Bring back king kenny or rafa! Boooooo
 
Not that it's likely, but I will laugh my nuts off if they do install Dalglish as their manager again. He's rubbish.
 
sincher said:
Not that it's likely, but I will laugh my nuts off if they do install Dalglish as their manager again. He's rubbish.
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He's "rubbish"? Surely a one eyed Manc view only..

I think he may well be out of touch, mind. And for that reason, I'd rather not see him take the reins.
 
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