Then where does it stop? What about breakaway Russian republics? What about Tibet rising up against the Chinese a few years ago? The fact of the matter is we cannot run the world in such an idealist manner.
A people's Revolution
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Then where does it stop? What about breakaway Russian republics? What about Tibet rising up against the Chinese a few years ago? The fact of the matter is we cannot run the world in such an idealist manner.
I know it cannot be ensured without it but it isn't up to us to determine the fate of other countries, they have to get where they want to go on their terms - if they want democracy they have to try harder, if the political culture isn't there to overcome dictatorship then it isn't there to ensure it doesn't come back.
There should be one clearly defined legal standard that is applied consistently and multilaterally. The age of unilateralism is quickly coming to an end.
Let's pull foreign aid then and ban adverts asking for £2 a month to send to foreign countries, feck em all, they can get where they want to on their own terms.
That is never going to work. Ever.
At the end of the day if someone just kills you for standing up to them, there isn't much you can do. If someone can help you get where you want, you will take it. Getting there > not getting there no matter the method.
This really needs to be about the bottom line and stopping fannying about. If 100 dictators want to be cnuts and slaughter their own people then there's no reason why we can't act the same for every one. This is what we have our forces for. Like Raoul says, it should be a set course of action every time. You can't let these people do what they want and rule how they want ignoring all sanctions and responsibilities.
It's all very well saying 'what about these, and these, and what if these guys act up, and then these guys, and then what if 30 different countries all have it going on at the same time and we have to step in to all of them it just isn't possible.'
Well that's highly unlikely to happen, but when it does, there's no reason why we can't. At the end of the day, what he is doing is wrong no matter who does it or how many do it at the same time. Action should be the same regardless, okay it hasn't been in the past but that can change. The question was put forward in the house of commons yesterday.
I agree but you cannot achieve a consistent standard for multilateralism when half the countries you want involved in the discussion would be intervened in under a policy such as this? China in particular is very isolationist in terms of foreign policy, doesn't want to be intervening anywhere and doesn't want a global policy on intervention as they would be liable themselves.
Obviously in our flawed UN security council model, states who wield veto power would be exempt from interventions. This is why the UN multilateral system must be reformed to bring more stakeholders to the table and create a mechanism to override a veto by any of the big five.
Then more of you have to stand up, stand up for longer, be willing to go further. We could give them help but if they haven't shown the will to overthrow their oppressors then there is nothing to suggest it won't require our continued intervention to maintain such states and keep them on life support - we do not have the will or the resources to do that when the country is divided on a no fly zone over a single country.
It isn't that the UN is flawed, it is that the international political order is, there is nothing we could do to the UN that would grant it more sanity as it is reflective of world governments as it is.
There's a difference between a will and a way. Like one guy said on the news yesterday 'we only have guns. They have tanks, guns, heavy weapons' etc.
They can't do it because of the opposition they are up against. It's not that they aren't capable of doing it ever full stop, it's a variable that people aren't really giving enough thought to that's stopping them. We can help with that. Why provoke more people standing up for longer against someone that will just kill them when we can put a stop to it? It's not like they can stand up and have their say and sit back down again. Given that chance I'll bet most of the country would, but it's different when they point a gun at you.
The only example I can think of that supports your stance is that of the United States itself, them aside I cannot think of any instance where a country has intervened in the domestic affairs of another in a one off event and ensure the stability of said country without further action. When you intervene you typically add yourself and your involvement into the equation, you are an a part of what made it what it becomes, and if you remove yourself the odds of such a state collapsing like a house of cards grows very considerably.
The thing is though, that's something that 'can' happen.
If you don't intervene, then that 'will' happen regardless.
You have to take the chance that allows a possibility of it being better, rather than taking the alternative which has a nailed on outcome.
It's not like Libya can't run themselves once Gadaffi is removed which is what you seem to be saying unless I've misunderstood, we don't know the answer to that, what we do know is the people can't fight off their own government killing them with tanks and shells and bombs. This doesn't impact their ability to form a proper government and not a dictatorship. We haven't got that far yet and they aren't asking us for help with that. The issue is their inability to fight back someone that is crushing them for standing up, that's what we are helping with.
They may form their own sucessful regime, we don't know that, it might collapse, we don't know that. The issue is getting rid of the person who is killing them and not their ability to run things on their own once this variable has been removed.
I might be able to do a better job than my manager, but if he points a gun at my face how do you expect me to progress any further? Just because I can't get there because I'll get shot if I try, doesn't mean I couldn't do it if he was removed. If you came along with your own gun and made him back down, I may then assume the position and excel. I wouldn't be asking for you to stick around afterwards, I just need to get past this obstacle in front of me that I don't have any power against.
I hear precisely what you are saying and there is a degree of merit to it, my view keeps wavering to both sides of the argument. The issue I have with this is that this now has to succeed, we want regime change in Libya though we have repeatedly stated that we only want to implement half measures in order to get it.
- I now see that the Syrians are firing tear gas at their people, this is going to run and run.
- I now see that the Syrians are firing tear gas at their people, this is going to run and run.
Exactly
International politics is anarchic specifically because there is no enforcable central institution that can adjudicate conflicts. The structure of the UN is deeply flawed because it favors the big five to the detriment of smaller nations who don't have the military or economic resources to compete with the larger states. The lack of an equitable legal framework pushes state actors to 'self help', or go unilateral, which simply put, is why wars take place. This is why the UN must be reformed or completely rebooted to incorporate human interests, rather than those of individual nation states. It has to address the new world of complex interdependence or else risk more nation to nation conflict.
It is the best we could get following WWII and to be fair allows for the western status quo to be maintained - if you made the UN general assembly the enabling body then we may as well all run to the hills. It is pretty much as democratic as you are going to get it, the UNSC permanent members remain the most promiment powers on the world stage irrespective of what the likes of Germany, Japan or India think.
You say it yourself, the world is anarchic so it isn't practical or possible to create a stable and sensible global governing body, especially when you consider the interventionalist/isolationist division at the highest level between the US and China.
The key thing that needs to change is the security council veto, as well as an expansion of the security council itself. We're moving into a post-American/post-Western multipolar construct, where the likes of India, Japan, Germany, and Brazil should get a bigger seat at the table, perhaps at the expense of France. But more important is a way to break security council vetos, which plays a big part in keeping the anarchic system in place.
THE UNSC will be widened at some point to be sure, I doubt we will see much on veto powers as lobbying particularly in Washington would prevent it considering just how many vetoes there have been with regards to Israel down the years.
I don't think are at a stage yet when the world is responsible enough for a UN you want - not when you have Russia and China on the top stage, when you have the relationship China has with India and I don't know if you would want the Indians at the top level considering their views on all things South Asia.
I don't think are at a stage yet when the world is responsible enough for a UN you want - not when you have Russia and China on the top stage, when you have the relationship China has with India and I don't know if you would want the Indians at the top level considering their views on all things South Asia.
Anyone seen Gaddafi's latest speech to state TV? 'kinell...more rambling. Sounds like the leader of a cult professing that everyone is ready to die.
Can't give a video link atm...just saw it on Al Jazeera.
Can't give a video link atm...just saw it on Al Jazeera.
The one where he was calling Obama "my son". Surreal stuff.
Didn't see that bit. Tuned in when he started going on about the West not learning lessons
He's just not up to date with modern politics and humanity is he.....it's as if he's stuck out there in his own little vindictive and patronising bubble. Why doesn't someone explain to him how things work these days.
They probably tried to, then found themselves with a bullent in their head for their troubles.
The Foxnewstards and Tea Baggers will have some fun with that.
Syrians demand end to emergency law - Israel News, Ynetnews
Thousands of Syrians demanded an end to 48 years of emergency law on Saturday, a third straight day of protests emerging as the biggest challenge to Syria's rulers since unrest swept the Arab world this year.
"No, No to emergency law. We are a people infatuated with freedom," marchers chanted as a government delegation arrived in the southern town of Deraa to pay condolences for victims killed by security forces in demonstrations there this week.
Syria has been ruled under emergency law since the Baath Party, which is headed by president Bashar Assad, took power in a 1963 coup and banned all opposition.
The government sought to appease popular discontent in Deraa by promising to release 15 schoolchildren whose arrests for scrawling protest graffiti had helped fuel the demonstrations.
An official statement said the children, who had written slogans inspired by uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt on walls, would be released immediately. The statement was a rare instance of Syria's ruling hierarchy responding to popular pressure.
Security forces opened fire on Friday on civilians taking part in a peaceful protest in Deraa demanding the release of the children, political freedoms and an end to corruption. Four people were killed.
On Saturday thousands of mourners called for "revolution" at the funeral of two of the protesters. Officials later met Deraa notables who presented then with a list of demands, most importantly the release of political prisoners.
The list demands the dismantling of the secret police headquarters in Deraa, dismissal of the governor, a public trial for those responsible for the killings and scrapping of regulations requiring permission from the secret police to sell and buy property. Non-violent protests have challenged the Baath Party's authority this month, following the uprisings that toppled the autocratic leaders of Egypt and Tunisia, with the largest protests in Deraa drawing thousands of people.
The city is a centre of the Hauran region, once a bread basket that also been affected by diminishing water levels in Syria, with yields falling by a quarter in Deraa last year.
Deraa is also home to thousands of displaced people from eastern Syria, where up to a million people have left their homes because of a water crisis over the past six years. Experts say state mismanagement of resources has worsened the crisis.
Speaking to Ynet, opposition elements confirmed that tanks from the fourth division had entered Deraa on Friday under the command of Assad's younger brother Maher, who heads Syria's Presidential Guard.
Meanwhile, some Syrians are comparing the events in Deraa to the massacre of Muslim Brotherhood members in the city of Hama in 1982. Some 30,000 were killed when the Syrian army bombed the city in order to quell a revolt by the Brotherhood.
A video posted on YouTube over the weekend compared between the massacre and the current attempts to suppress the anti-government protests in Syria, saying "History is repeating itself".
Thousands of Syrians demanded an end to 48 years of emergency law on Saturday, a third straight day of protests emerging as the biggest challenge to Syria's rulers since unrest swept the Arab world this year.
"No, No to emergency law. We are a people infatuated with freedom," marchers chanted as a government delegation arrived in the southern town of Deraa to pay condolences for victims killed by security forces in demonstrations there this week.
Syria has been ruled under emergency law since the Baath Party, which is headed by president Bashar Assad, took power in a 1963 coup and banned all opposition.
The government sought to appease popular discontent in Deraa by promising to release 15 schoolchildren whose arrests for scrawling protest graffiti had helped fuel the demonstrations.
An official statement said the children, who had written slogans inspired by uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt on walls, would be released immediately. The statement was a rare instance of Syria's ruling hierarchy responding to popular pressure.
Security forces opened fire on Friday on civilians taking part in a peaceful protest in Deraa demanding the release of the children, political freedoms and an end to corruption. Four people were killed.
On Saturday thousands of mourners called for "revolution" at the funeral of two of the protesters. Officials later met Deraa notables who presented then with a list of demands, most importantly the release of political prisoners.
The list demands the dismantling of the secret police headquarters in Deraa, dismissal of the governor, a public trial for those responsible for the killings and scrapping of regulations requiring permission from the secret police to sell and buy property. Non-violent protests have challenged the Baath Party's authority this month, following the uprisings that toppled the autocratic leaders of Egypt and Tunisia, with the largest protests in Deraa drawing thousands of people.
The city is a centre of the Hauran region, once a bread basket that also been affected by diminishing water levels in Syria, with yields falling by a quarter in Deraa last year.
Deraa is also home to thousands of displaced people from eastern Syria, where up to a million people have left their homes because of a water crisis over the past six years. Experts say state mismanagement of resources has worsened the crisis.
Speaking to Ynet, opposition elements confirmed that tanks from the fourth division had entered Deraa on Friday under the command of Assad's younger brother Maher, who heads Syria's Presidential Guard.
Meanwhile, some Syrians are comparing the events in Deraa to the massacre of Muslim Brotherhood members in the city of Hama in 1982. Some 30,000 were killed when the Syrian army bombed the city in order to quell a revolt by the Brotherhood.
A video posted on YouTube over the weekend compared between the massacre and the current attempts to suppress the anti-government protests in Syria, saying "History is repeating itself".
Any mention of Charlie Sheen
The referendum in Egypt chose to amend the constitution rather than scrapping it and re-writing one. That means that it'll be a shorter time before elections, benefiting the NDP and Muslim Brotherhood since they're already organized. A "no" vote would have pushed the elections and formation of a full government back a year allowing for other parties to organize themselves into a formidable political body.
Any opinion on this avatar?
Any opinion on this avatar?
This is the one. Only a portion of it though.
Another one bites the dust. Probably.
Yemen
UK FO have temporarily withdrawn some of their British Embassy staff from Sana'a because of the security situation there and strongly urge all British nationals to leave Yemen now.
UK FO have temporarily withdrawn some of their British Embassy staff from Sana'a because of the security situation there and strongly urge all British nationals to leave Yemen now.
How secure is Qatar ahead of the world cup? I reckon it loses its bid at somepoint, if that happens
Just filled up my car's tank and tomorrow I have to do the same with my pick up because they will use any little fecking excuse to raise the price of gas.
Yeah, you've got it tough. It's like their oppressing you with their oppressing gas prices.
is that rumsfeld quote real
I think it's just a pisstake with the quotes
EDIT: Though I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turned out that most of these quotes were real
Syrian activists: Death toll in anti-gov't protests 100 - Israel News, Ynetnews
At least 25 bodies of protestors who were killed in clashes with Syrian security forces were evacuated to the main hospital in the southern city of Deraa, a medical official reported Thursday.
"They all had gunshot wounds," the official said.
Activists said the death toll in the anti-government protests has climbed to 100.
Meanwhile, Syrian opposition leaders have accused President Bashar Assad of using Hezbollah to suppress the anti-government protests. Abd el-Razek told BBC Arabic that Hezbollah operatives were working alongside Syrian security forces to quell the riots in Deraa. Other opposition leaders have made similar claims.
Awful footage coming out of Deraa:
At least 25 bodies of protestors who were killed in clashes with Syrian security forces were evacuated to the main hospital in the southern city of Deraa, a medical official reported Thursday.
"They all had gunshot wounds," the official said.
Activists said the death toll in the anti-government protests has climbed to 100.
Meanwhile, Syrian opposition leaders have accused President Bashar Assad of using Hezbollah to suppress the anti-government protests. Abd el-Razek told BBC Arabic that Hezbollah operatives were working alongside Syrian security forces to quell the riots in Deraa. Other opposition leaders have made similar claims.
Awful footage coming out of Deraa:
Breaking News on Sky
Syria's president Assad has accepted the resignation of his cabinet.
Syria's president Assad has accepted the resignation of his cabinet.
I'm surprised at the lack of interest in the people's revolution in Syria. There's been a brutal clampdown on demonstrations, hundreds of arrests, alleged torturing of opposition leaders and occasional massacres to boot.
It would also be interesting to hear from our Cairo correspondent about the aftermath of the revolution there- what the political climate is like there at the moment.
It would also be interesting to hear from our Cairo correspondent about the aftermath of the revolution there- what the political climate is like there at the moment.