Paucity of great centre midfielders today

[Wumminator]

I disagree. The quality in a given position definitely fluctuates. Full back is probably the clearest example imo. About a decade ago we had Zanetti, Cafu and Thuram all in or close to their prime at right back, plus the likes of Gary Neville and Zambrotta. At left back there was Madlini, Lizarazu and Roberto Carlos all performing at a high level. There's nowhere near the same quality or depth in the full back positions today.

See again I don't think this is true, even though he's just had a bad season, players like Evra and Cole are quite clearly great full backs, and players like Alves and Maicon are thought of as the best right backs. Then you have players like Lahm and Abidal who're the rung below.

 

[Wumminator]

He was in the shortlist for PL POTY and was the best midfielder in the world in 06/07.

Normally when you talk about 2006, I thought we'd be talking about 2005/2006 season where he missed most of it. Next season I agree, he was back to his best.

 

[B20]

Lol. So except for all the games where he played him in central midfield, he didnøt play him in central midfield that much.

weak, storey.

 

[TheHorse'sMouth]

Busquets is boomting. Best one-touch passer out there.

 

[peterstorey]

Lol. So except for all the games where he played him in central midfield, he didnøt play him in central midfield that much.

weak, storey.

He didn't play there in over half of all games. The only season where he played more than half in CM was Benitez first before he sorted CM. After that first season he figured in less than 15% of games in CM against better teams. Shall we get on to Gerrard in CM for England next?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

See again I don't think this is true, even though he's just had a bad season, players like Evra and Cole are quite clearly great full backs, and players like Alves and Maicon are thought of as the best right backs. Then you have players like Lahm and Abidal who're the rung below.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Evra, Cole, Alves and Maicon are very good full backs, but they're at least a level below most of the names I mentioned. The current bunch are the best of their generation, the previous ones were among the best ever by all accounts.

 

[Brwned]

Normally when you talk about 2006, I thought we'd be talking about 2005/2006 season where he missed most of it. Next season I agree, he was back to his best.

It seems you're being picky for the sake of it, it's obvious that he wasn't talking about one specific season or the form he was in at that point, it was the class he showed in and around that period and how highly he was rated around the time, not in that specific year.

In the same way that, despite Sneijder just having a somewhat unimpressive last season, he's still in the list for the current midfielders.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

There has been a definite drop in the quality of central midfielders. As a result more and more teams have turned to formation in which the base midfielders are about their grit and athleticism than their vision and on the ball skills. Which has in turn had a knock on effect in the development of midfielders.

Nowadays if you have dribbling skills and vision, you almost always either end upon the flank or in the hole as a second striker.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

As a result more and more teams have turned to formation in which the base midfielders are about their grit and athleticism

With the popularization of the 3 man midfield I think its quite the opposite. Midfielders aren't expected to be the box to box workhorses that they once were.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

With the popularization of the 3 man midfield I think its quite the opposite. Midfielders aren't expected to be the box to box workhorses that they once were.

Your claim doesn't explain why most of them lack the ball skills and vision those positions once required. Back in the day players with the skill set of of Makelele and Mascherano were only used as center backs in the top teams. Not as defensive midfielders.

 

[7even]

There has been a definite drop in the quality of central midfielders. As a result more and more teams have turned to formation in which the base midfielders are about their grit and athleticism than their vision and on the ball skills. Which has in turn had a knock on effect in the development of midfielders.

Nowadays if you have dribbling skills and vision, you almost always either end upon the flank or in the hole as a second striker.

I'm not with you on this one.

The game has developed quite much since the Millennium. Back then the way a team defended was different and the tempo of the ball was much slower. Players had more time with the ball, the teams wasn't so well organized and that gave more players opportunity's to excel. The best teams from that era wouldn't had a chance against the top teams from today.

Today's best teams are more well organised and have better tactical knowledge. It started with Mourinho and now Guardiola has made it an art to defend all over the pitch. They players from today are in general more fit, faster and more specialized. Most of the deadwood is gone and if you look at the top teams they have almost world class (or close) on every position.

Today's Barcelona and Spain are on a different level to the teams from 10 years ago. As same as Usian Bolt is faster then sprinters from yesterday. Nothing knew and evolution will always make athlete's better for every year.

Sometimes memory's and nostalgia is blurring our judgement. This doesn't mean that Zidane and Co was worse then today's top players. Mohammad Ali will always be the greatest, even if he wouldn't stand a single rond against today's beast's. It was just a different era and in general it's often impossible to judge who is better or worse.

In the end it's all a matter of personal preference and opinions.

 

[NJ1979]

I'm not with you on this one.

The game has developed quite much since the Millennium. Back then the way a team defended was different and the tempo of the ball was much slower. Players had more time with the ball, the teams wasn't so well organized and that gave more players opportunity's to excel. The best teams from that era wouldn't had a chance against the top teams from today.

Today's best teams are more well organised and have better tactical knowledge. It started with Mourinho and now Guardiola has made it an art to defend all over the pitch. They players from today are in general more fit, faster and more specialized. Most of the deadwood is gone and if you look at the top teams they have almost world class (or close) on every position.

Today's Barcelona and Spain are on a different level to the teams from 10 years ago. As same as Usian Bolt is faster then sprinters from yesterday. Nothing knew and evolution will always make athlete's better for every year.

Sometimes memory's and nostalgia is blurring our judgement. This doesn't mean that Zidane and Co was worse then today's top players. Mohammad Ali will always be the greatest, even if he wouldn't stand a single rond against today's beast's. It was just a different era and in general it's often impossible to judge who is better or worse.

In the end it's all a matter of personal preference and opinions.

Not sure I buy into this. Players like Giggs, Zanetti, Maldini etc have managed to cope with the evolution of the game and still retain their effectiveness into their mid 30s and beyond, I can't see any reason why Zidane and the like couldn't have done so too had they still been playing.

 

[Brwned]

Today's best teams are more well organised and have better tactical knowledge. It started with Mourinho and now Guardiola has made it an art to defend all over the pitch.

I think you need to read up on Sacchi's Milan if you think it's Mourinho and Guardiola who came up with this ground-breaking tactical idea.

 

[Aboutreika18]

I think you need to read up on Sacchi's Milan if you think it's Mourinho and Guardiola who came up with this ground-breaking tactical idea.

And of course the likes of Maslov and Lobanovskyi who preceded Sacchi.

 

[Brwned]

Well, that'd seemingly be far too much reading up to do, I was going with the easier option...

 

[Aboutreika18]

Hehe...fair enough.

 

[Polaroid]

If anything, Barcelona and Spain have shown that technique and intelligence can prevail over physique and athleticism in football at the highest level.
Football is not the same as sprinting in a straight line for 100m or around a bend for 200m. Restrict Scholes or Xavi in a 10m by 10 m box in the middle of the pitch and they can still influence games far more than most running up and down the pitch

 

[7even]

I think you need to read up on Sacchi's Milan if you think it's Mourinho and Guardiola who came up with this ground-breaking tactical idea.

Nice try man. Nothing new under the sun.

IFK Gotheburg UEFA - cup winner 1983
Manager Sven Göran Eriksson
In the line up.

Glenn Hysén (PSV, Liverpool), Glenn Strömberg (Benfica, Atalanta), Dan Cornelisson (Como), Torbjörn Nilsson (PSV, Kaiserslautern)

Won against Valencia, Kaiserslautern and Hamburg (with Felix Magath)


Maybe you never saw them but they were one of the first teams who started with press with support on ball holder. Probably there were teams before them but hey.... you will probably tell me. Someone was first.

Btw. I have live on telly (when it was black and white) seen every Europacup final and CL final since 1971. Every WC final (and SF and QF) since 1970. Doesn't mean anything but WTF. You probably can download them or watch YouTube nowadays so who cares.

Edit. Didn't we start to compare players from the Millennium against players from today...? Why bring in Sacchi...

 

[peterstorey]

Nice try man. Nothing new under the sun.

He, he you tell the kids today and not only do they not believe you but they give you lip 'n' all.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I'm not with you on this one.

The game has developed quite much since the Millennium. Back then the way a team defended was different and the tempo of the ball was much slower. Players had more time with the ball, the teams wasn't so well organized and that gave more players opportunity's to excel. The best teams from that era wouldn't had a chance against the top teams from today.

Your kidding right? The team of the erra Im talking about that had players like Keane, Davids et al include United 94, and 99, Bayern 99, Juventus 1996-2000, Barca 94-2000, Real Madrid 1997-2000 etc. I'm willing to bet they'd more than hold their own against most of the teams we call tops today. Even tactically. Even back then wth the quality at SAF's disposal he could only reach 1 European final.

I have no doubt the quality of midfielder has gone down considerably in that time. Hopefully the generation of the Ozil's will address that issue.

Today's Barcelona and Spain are on a different level to the teams from 10 years ago.

I don't buy this at all. If this Barca side for example was around 10 plus years ago, they'd have found the going a lot harder. Because the quality of midfielders around was much much deeper than it is now.

 

[7even]

Your kidding right? The team of the erra Im talking about that had players like Keane, Davids et al include United 94, and 99, Bayern 99, Juventus 1996-2000, Barca 94-2000, Real Madrid 1997-2000 etc. I'm willing to bet they'd more than hold their own against most of the teams we call tops today. Even tactically.

I don't buy this at all. If this Barca side was around 10 plus years ago, they'd have found the going a lot had

And anything if this will we never know.

But isn't fair to think that today's teams are more well organized and use superior tactics, and that players are more fit?

There will always be exceptional players who's greatness are timeless. Pelé, Cruyff, Kaiser Franz, Mattheus, Maradona, Maldini, Baresi, Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane and Xavi is a few who pop up on my mind.

But if you compare a older generation against a new generation the latest one will always, in general be a little bit better. That is evolution.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

And anything if this will we never know.

But isn't fair to think that today's teams are more well organized and use superior tactics, and that players are more fit? .

No. Because many of them don't show tactical sophistication at all. Back in 99 more teams played different tactical systems and they all made them ultra competitive.
Nowadays most teams mirror each other.

Also I'm far from convinced this current starring generation has many midfielders who have the fitness levels of Keane, Vieira, Petit, Davids, Effenberg, Cocu in their mid 20's. And that is just a cross section of names from that time.

There will always be exceptional players who's greatness are timeless. Pelé, Cruyff, Kaiser Franz, Mattheus, Maradona, Maldini, Baresi, Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane and Xavi is a few who pop up on my mind.

True

But if you compare a older generation against a new generation the latest one will always, in general be a little bit better. That is evolution.

Well in football in the last decade that hasn't been the case. The midfielders for example, especially the holding ones have gone through an extended period of being rather bland.

Amongst strikers too, natural goal scorers had started to completely die out. It is now robust all action strikers mostly ruling the roost. Who mostly lack that crucial knack that people like Ruud posses. To the extent 2 wingers started showing everyone how it is done.

Also proper wingers are becoming a dying breed. Most are now inside out wingers who are either converted strikers or converted playmakers. And the few real wingers left are mostly not that special either.

I just feel that the athleticism of football and the desire to be tactical had started to drastically affect the technicality of the sport. That is why right now I'm grateful for what Barca at club level and the likes of Spain and Germany have done. They have begun to show that the 2 can be combined. The next generation of footballers being produced will benefit the most from these changes. But that is just my take on things.

 

[Brwned]

Nice try man. Nothing new under the sun.

IFK Gotheburg UEFA - cup winner 1983
Manager Sven Göran Eriksson
In the line up.

Glenn Hysén (PSV, Liverpool), Glenn Strömberg (Benfica, Atalanta), Dan Cornelisson (Como), Torbjörn Nilsson (PSV, Kaiserslautern)

Won against Valencia, Kaiserslautern and Hamburg (with Felix Magath)


Maybe you never saw them but they were one of the first teams who started with press with support on ball holder. Probably there were teams before them but hey.... you will probably tell me. Someone was first.

Btw. I have live on telly (when it was black and white) seen every Europacup final and CL final since 1971. Every WC final (and SF and QF) since 1970. Doesn't mean anything but WTF. You probably can download them or watch YouTube nowadays so who cares.

Edit. Didn't we start to compare players from the Millennium against players from today...? Why bring in Sacchi...

Ouch, now there's a comeback. I don't really understand what you were saying that Mourinho and Guardiola started that hadn't been done years before?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Mohammad Ali will always be the greatest, even if he wouldn't stand a single rond against today's beast's.

Funny enough I was going to use the example of boxing to make the exact opposite point! Ali would easily dominate this extremely poor era of heavyweights, as would Foreman, Holmes, Tyson and just about any other of the 210lb+ great heavyweights of previous eras. The Klit brothers, especially Vitali, are the only ones that would realistically be competitive with them. This argument that the standard of athlete has continually risen in every sport is erroneous, and boxing is a perfect example. In the strength sports as well standards have generally stagnated for about two decades in olympic weightlifting and unequipped powerlifting.

In a sport where sport-specific skill trumps pure athleticism its even more the case that standards don't perpetually increase from generation to generation. While Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc are extremely fit and nimble, they certainly aren't at the top of the game because they're the finest pure athletes, its because of their technical and tactical attributes. Similar to MMA, where people thought that the emergence of Lesnar, Carwin, Overeem etc meant that more normally sized heavyweights would be overmatched, yet the likes of Velasquez and Dos Santos are still at the summit of the heavyweight division.

 

[7even]

Ouch, now there's a comeback. I don't really understand what you were saying that Mourinho and Guardiola started that hadn't been done years before?

It's OK. You know how old men can be....

Seriously so was Mourinho on of the first Managers who drilled his teams to defend all over the pitch. Chelsea t/05 was a great defensive team who was very hard to brake down.

He did the same with Inter, they were great in defense two years ago. It was some sort of innovation to combine zon and man marking.

Last it must be noted that Guardiola's Barcelona is one of the best defensive teams ever. Never seen anything like this. I found it hard to believe that any team in the history could cope with that. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my impression.

 

[7even]

In the strength sports as well standards have generally stagnated for about two decades in olympic weightlifting and unequipped powerlifting.

Good post mate.

Regarding your statement. Doping can be a factor.

 

[Brwned]

I'm still not really getting it, Herrara's Inter weren't organised, tactically smart and defensively solid from all areas?

I do agree about Barcelona though, not only are they incredibly efficient at winning the ball back but starving the opposition of possession to such a degree is quite obviously the most effective way to prevent your team being attacked.

 

[Polaroid]

But if you compare a older generation against a new generation the latest one will always, in general be a little bit better. That is evolution.

By your reasoning ie the newer generation will always be better than the older, the logical deduction would be
Germany 2000-2004 > West Germany 1982-1990
France 2011 > France 1998-2006
Portugal 2011 > Portugal 2000-2006
Italy 2010 > Italy 2006 > Italy 2000 > Italy 1994 > Italy 1982
Brazil 2010 > Brazil 2002 > Brazil 1994 > Brazil 1982 > Brazil 1970

 

[peterstorey]

In a sport where sport-specific skill trumps pure athleticism its even more the case that standards don't perpetually increase from generation to generation.

The 60s can claim Pele, Sobers, Laver and Ali, who beat most of their rivals from subsequent decades.

 

[7even]

By your reasoning ie the latest generation is always the best because the newer generation will always be better than the older, the logical deduction would be
Germany 2000-2004 > West Germany 1982-1990
France 2011 > France 1998-2006
Portugal 2011 > Portugal 2000-2006
Italy 2010 > Italy 2006 > Italy 2000 > Italy 1994 > Italy 1982
Brazil 2010 > Brazil 2002 > Brazil 1994 > Brazil 1982 > Brazil 1970

Don't be daft.

But in straight answer. Yes. Brazil 2010 will beat Brazil 1970. Use your logical sense.

Nobody think a new Audi RS8 is a better car then the classical Jaguar E-type. But you can be damn sure is faster, have better acceleration and more comfortable. But that doesn't count when we compare them.

As I say. It's useless to compare thing's, humans and so from different generations.

 

[peterstorey]

But in straight answer. Yes. Brazil 2010 will beat Brazil 1970. Use your logical sense.

Given equal fitness and conditioning not a chance.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Given equal fitness and conditioning not a chance.

Even without it Brazil 2010 would get their asses kicked.

 

[Polaroid]

In a sport where sport-specific skill trumps pure athleticism its even more the case that standards don't perpetually increase from generation to generation. While Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc are extremely fit and nimble, they certainly aren't at the top of the game because they're the finest pure athletes, its because of their technical and tactical attributes.

You have nailed the crux of the argument
And the imagination, fantasy and invention that set these players apart are not things that can be canned and transferred
Genius is nothing like a production line

 

[7even]

Given equal fitness and conditioning not a chance.

There you have it!

Everything progress. A Rod Laver wouldn't stand a chance against John McEnroe, and Jimmy Connors would be shark food against Bom Bom Becker. And so on.

The thing is that the players in Brazil 1970 wasn't as fit as they are today. The tempo was different and that makes the difference.

Is it so hard to understand?

 

[peterstorey]

There you have it!

Everything progress. A Rod Laver wouldn't stand a chance against John McEnroe, and Jimmy Connors would be shark food against Bom Bom Becker. And so on.

The thing is that the players in Brazil 1970 wasn't as fit as they are today. The tempo was different and that makes the difference.

Is it so hard to understand?

Yeah but the comparison has to be on the grounds that they DO have equal conditioning - it's not just a fitness test, it's about relative skill. I think we're now at the limit of fit ( see number of injuries/player exhaustion) - so in 20 years you'll be able to make the comparison without the conditioning proviso.

 

[7even]

You have nailed the crux of the argument
And the imagination, fantasy and invention that set these players apart are not things that can be canned and transferred
Genius is nothing like a production line

You don't get it and you miss the point.

Bjorn Borg was a tennis legend with dozens of Grand Slam titles. He wouldn't have a chance against any of today's top 25 players in tennis.

"Burken" had probably more talent and better fitness then all of them except Federer and Nadal. It would still end up with a loss probably something like 6-0,6-0,6-1. I blame "Labbe" and Donnay!

 

[7even]

Yeah but the comparison has to be on the grounds that they DO have equal conditioning .

Why?

That's part of progress. Better food, training programs, equipment's, tactic, more training hours and so on.

 

[peterstorey]

The idea is to work out who would be the better team given an equal start point, otherwise it's not really much of an argument - modern teams would just run them into the ground.

 

[Polaroid]

Don't be daft.

But in straight answer. Yes. Brazil 2010 will beat Brazil 1970. Use your logical sense.

Nobody think a new Audi RS8 is a better car then the classical Jaguar E-type. But you can be damn sure is faster, have better acceleration and more comfortable. But that doesn't count when we compare them.

As I say. It's useless to compare thing's, humans and so from different generations.

That line of reasoning was based on what you stated - the newer generation will always be better than the older generation
If you find it daft, that is because your assertion was on shaky ground to begin with

So use your logical sense to answer your own assertion
is Germany 2000 > West Germany 1990?
is France 2011 > France 2000?
is Portugal 2011 > Portugal 2000?
is Italy 2010 > Italy 2000?

The whole premise of the thread was the depth of top quality talent in different eras. Within the context of that era, the pitch and equipment, the medical science and fitness conditioning etc, judge the proven quality of the player's talent and his level of play on a sustained basis, is he a great player? then compare the numbers of individuals who qualify in each era.
As the above examples show, the availability of top quality talent waxes, wanes and waxes over time. Our own experience in youth development is another example (before the class of 92, we had to go back to the early 80s for Whiteside and Hughes). Talent is not a factory production line neither can football talent measured predominantly by how big, strong and quick the players are.

 

[7even]

The idea is to work out who would be the better team given an equal start point, otherwise it's not really much of an argument - modern teams would just run them into the ground.

Thanks!

To go back to topic so were there more high profile midfield players around the Millennium, Today we have a few superstars who take all the lime light.

But look at United. Today are our strength our squad and not one or two stars.

In the end I think we are better today as a team, over a whole season, then we where 10 years ago.