2021 American Civil War

villain said:
So in the aftermath, how many arrests have been made?
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I don't get this. Where are the people being led out in handcuffs? Why is no one being arrested?

Imagine this was a far left demonstration. There would be hundreds of arrests, tear gas, rubber bullets and armored vehicles all over the place. Trump or no Trump, American law enforcement is absolutely rotten to the core.
 
Siorac said:
The video clearly shows other police officers right behind the woman. There would have been other ways to deter her from trying to enter the room. American police is just way too trigger-happy, regardless of the situation. We've seen that countless times.

I know Donald Trump has no conscience and therefore he won't care but he's responsible for this. Yes, he did not pull the trigger - but that only means the responsibility isn't his alone.
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To play Devils advocate, they had barricaded the doors inside a Government building against a crowd that could possibly be armed and had guns directed at them and no doubt ordered them to stand down to no avail. We don't know how deep they were into the building except that it was a tight corridor, if this was the last line of defence and they were defending civilians/officials then they have no option.

The real crime was allowing them into the building in the first place, they should have been detained outside the building like every other normal human being would have.
 
Adisa said:
Racist America in full flow. My colleague is having a go at me for bringing race into it. I told him to feck off. No way a group of black protesters storm the US capitol, it just won't happen.
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A lot of this boils down to the pent up rage that there was a black man who was President.
 
sun_tzu said:
Even if he did... if you let one woman enter that room does he think everybody else is just gonna stand back whilst you arrest her because more likely than not you suddenly have a hundred people in there and who or whatever the officer has been told and trained to defend using deadly force if necessary is suddenly in a lot more danger
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I had the same thinking when I saw someone else make that suggestion. And to be clear, he discharged his firearm, that alone should start an investigation, questions need to be asked about the communication between units because he could have injured other police officers who were climbing the stairs. But this situation shouldn't be likened to normal protests.
 
RedSky said:
The real crime was allowing them into the building in the first place, they should have been detained outside the building like every other normal human being would have.
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Yeah, I definitely agree with this. But that's also what I mean when I say this could have been avoided with a more competent police force.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Given their track record, it is actually kind of incredible how long the police waited before using their firearms, and equally incredible that they only fired a single shot when they did. Could have been so much worse in many ways.
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Well the police didn't, they seem to have tried to stagger the crazies but not really stop them getting through. They were outnumbered and under equipped so what else could they do.

The shooting is just a result of how easy they've been able to get to an area protected by secret service.
 
villain said:
So in the aftermath, how many arrests have been made?
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50 something but they’re all suspected Antifa spies who infiltrated a peaceful demonstration.
 
Adisa said:
Racist America in full flow. My colleague is having a go at me for bringing race into it. I told him to feck off. No way a group of black protesters storm the US capitol, it just won't happen.
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You could argue that the BLM protests started in other cities and grew in momentum, by the time they were barricading the Capitol, it was due to the seemingly growing and inevitable tide that was heading that way.

What we saw yesterday was more of a flash in the pan eruption of violence that started and (hopefully) ended in a very condensed area of DC.

That said, race is a huge driving force behind all this. One of the primary reasons for these thugs storming the Capitol is due to the fact the Republican voter suppression failed, and that with mail-in ballots, you were able to conduct an election which made it easier for minority votes to be counted. As you said, racist America in full flow.
 
JPRouve said:
It looked like a provocative question for the sake of it and an attempt at equating two totally different context which has been going on in the last few pages.
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I don't like unarmed civilians being shot.

Obviously there is some nuance if they are reaching for a weapon or its legitimate that they may incapacitate you to the point you cannot protect yourself. But no matter what the person had done or said or looks like the police should be using the least amount of force necessary to effectuate their lawful goals. That was the point, and if a poster starts using the same excuses that right wingers use when unarmed black people are shot it's just a sign of the times with sides being more important than principles.
 
Seems like the good ol' Commander in Chief incited the violence himself, refused to take actions to reduce the danger, and then was pleased with the results.



 
Drainy said:
I don't like unarmed civilians being shot.

Obviously there is some nuance if they are reaching for a weapon or its legitimate that they may incapacitate you to the point you cannot protect yourself. But no matter what the person had done or said or looks like the police should be using the least amount of force necessary to effectuate their lawful goals. That was the point, and if a poster starts using the same excuses that right wingers use when unarmed black people are shot it's just a sign of the times with sides being more important than principles.
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No mate, the excuse was that this was the US capitol building.

You know full well what is likely to happen if you violently storm it.

But yeah, keep comparing that to an unarmed bloke in his car reaching for his driving licence. Ffs man.
 


She's trying to jump a barricaded room with about 5 pistols drawn on the opening. Guess where I'm not jumping through whilst undertaking an insurrection in the capitol? THE ROOM WITH ALL THE feckING GUNS POINTED AT THE OPENING.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
No mate, the excuse was that this was the US capitol building.

You know full well what is likely to happen if you violently storm it.

But yeah, keep comparing that to an unarmed bloke in his car reaching for his driving licence. Ffs man.
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Particularly when they were allegedly finding pipe bombs at the same time.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Given their track record, it is actually kind of incredible how long the police waited before using their firearms, and equally incredible that they only fired a single shot when they did. Could have been so much worse in many ways.
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True.
 
Most of the people asking why these protesters weren't shot are doing so rhetorically, to highlight the disparity in the treatment between certain groups of people in the US. They don't actually want unarmed protesters to be killed, they just wish previous protests (with more just causes and behaving in less egregious fashion) had been shown a fraction of the defference that these racist, right-wing protesters were afforded.

Though a response firm enough to stop the building from actually being invaded would hardly have been excessive. And with that sort of response you might have prevented protesters from getting so far into the building that lethal response was likely. Because it's actually remarkable that only one protester was killed once it reached the point, as in that situation I would have expected casualties even in countries who are typically less heavy handed than the US.
 
WPMUFC said:


She's trying to jump a barricaded room with about 5 pistols drawn on the opening. Guess where I'm not jumping through whilst undertaking an insurrection in the capitol? THE ROOM WITH ALL THE feckING GUNS POINTED AT THE OPENING.
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Never a fan of people being shot, but what exactly did she expect to happen?
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Quite the opposite. The shooting would have started immediately if that was a BLM group attempting to invade the building, or even if it wasn't a predominantly white group. They wouldn't have got through the door.
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They were definitely late getting involved and that does seem to have been politically motivated. What I was referring to was the level of violence in that video, when they finally did turn up.
 
Drainy said:
I don't like unarmed civilians being shot.

Obviously there is some nuance if they are reaching for a weapon or its legitimate that they may incapacitate you to the point you cannot protect yourself. But no matter what the person had done or said or looks like the police should be using the least amount of force necessary to effectuate their lawful goals. That was the point, and if a poster starts using the same excuses that right wingers use when unarmed black people are shot it's just a sign of the times with sides being more important than principles.
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I think most people watching yesterday's madness unfold would agree that the police used the least amount of force that they reasonably could. And then some. It was embarrassing how easy it was for those rioters/terrorists to storm the fecking Capitol.

No one wants unarmed civilians being shot. But at the point at which you illegally storm the Capitol when it's in session, with the demands of many there to spill blood/disrupt the democratic process/silent the overwhelming majority of American voters, and conduct blatant acts of treason, then we're not really talking about "unarmed civilians" in any normal context.

The videos of these thugs citing civilian rights whilst inside the Capitol is just mind-blowing.

Not saying that you disagree with the above by the way, just applying the broader point you made re civilians being shot by police to what happened yesterday.
 
JPRouve said:
Yeah, Pogue's post was confusing. Pretending that we are simply talking about protesters, as if pipe bombs and storming the capitol didn't happen before that. If anything I'm amazed by the lack of violent response, I'm confident that it would have been handled differently in France.
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I’ve subsequently clarified my point. There was a serious delay in dealing with this. They left them unchallenged for far too long. Once they belatedly got the go ahead to start cracking heads they seemed to do this no less enthusiastically than usual. As per the video shared by @Eboue above.
 
Can't deny that things would have been handled way differently had this been BLM or non-US terrorists.
Amazing they let people into the building. If it was anyone else you'd have had to climb over a pile of bodies on the steps to get in.
Eventually they had to draw a line though and cannot blame that copper at all for shooting the woman. What an utterly bizarre situation he was in. Like something from a Harrison Ford film.
 
WPMUFC said:


She's trying to jump a barricaded room with about 5 pistols drawn on the opening. Guess where I'm not jumping through whilst undertaking an insurrection in the capitol? THE ROOM WITH ALL THE feckING GUNS POINTED AT THE OPENING.
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"It's just a flashbang."
 
Drainy said:
I don't like unarmed civilians being shot.

Obviously there is some nuance if they are reaching for a weapon or its legitimate that they may incapacitate you to the point you cannot protect yourself. But no matter what the person had done or said or looks like the police should be using the least amount of force necessary to effectuate their lawful goals. That was the point, and if a poster starts using the same excuses that right wingers use when unarmed black people are shot it's just a sign of the times with sides being more important than principles.
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I'd agree but the situation is different. Unarmed black people getting shot has usually been on the street. This is a mob that broke into the US Capitol and continue to push further inside. With doors barricaded and guns aimed at them to deter them, they still persisted. Who's to say if that woman got through, it wouldn't just continue to snowball (as it seemed to do from the get go).

This all began because Donald Trump rallied his supporters to march on the Capitol. Infused with lies and hate, the idea that they were cheated and that the people inside were destroying democracy and robbing them of their victory. So he knew full well there would be a protest, he incited it. There seemed to be barely any police presence (as there was during BLM) and that is on Trump's head. He knew full well what he was doing, he's causing chaos on his way out. That whole crowd should have been tear gassed, water cannoned to feck the moment they stepped too close. For it to get to the point where armed people are inside barricading themselves against a mob who are just smashing through...There's only so long you can point a gun at somebody, after they continue to break the law, before they just don't give a f***/call your bluff.
 
I don't really have any doubt in my mind that this mob would have murdered the likes of Pelosi and AOC. Probably even McConnell, given he had just rejected the senate challenges and Trump earlier on in the day. That officer inside the chamber was totally justified in responding in the way they did.
 
groovyalbert said:
You could argue that the BLM protests started in other cities and grew in momentum, by the time they were barricading the Capitol, it was due to the seemingly growing and inevitable tide that was heading that way.

What we saw yesterday was more of a flash in the pan eruption of violence that started and (hopefully) ended in a very condensed area of DC.

That said, race is a huge driving force behind all this. One of the primary reasons for these thugs storming the Capitol is due to the fact the Republican voter suppression failed, and that with mail-in ballots, you were able to conduct an election which made it easier for minority votes to be counted. As you said, racist America in full flow.
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This date and protests had been planned for over two weeks. Every Proud Boy and Trumpist had vowed to be there. The internet was flooded with pictures of deplorables with their guns threatening to storm DC. WTF did the police and security services think was going to happen...Trump would placate the crowd?
People need firing over this shit.
The video of police literally escorting protesters past the barricades show there is more afoot here. Heads need to roll.
 
Ananke said:
I'd agree but the situation is different. Unarmed black people getting shot has usually been on the street. This is a mob that broke into the US Capitol and continue to push further inside. With doors barricaded and guns aimed at them to deter them, they still persisted. Who's to say if that woman got through, it wouldn't just continue to snowball (as it seemed to do from the get go).
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That he knows full well, but is trying to play smart.

Drainy, stick to James O'Brien soundbites mate.
 
WPMUFC said:


She's trying to jump a barricaded room with about 5 pistols drawn on the opening. Guess where I'm not jumping through whilst undertaking an insurrection in the capitol? THE ROOM WITH ALL THE feckING GUNS POINTED AT THE OPENING.
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So the people with guns have barricaded the door and have drawn guns clearly trying to hold the line at the door.

This lady sees all that And says feck it... I'm white... I'm going in. White privilege must be nice. I swear.
 
Genuinely cannot believe we have people on this thread trying to compare right-wing justification of unarmed shooting of black people to an insurrectionist willingly jumping into a barricaded room to overthrown the government.

It's a genuine tragedy that someone can be deluded and die a meaningless death. Don't turn this into "whataboutism"
 
What pisses me off is the fact they all look like they're on a great piss-up in the pictures. They're just having a laugh. All because they know law enforcement won't bother doing anything about them. Compare that to the indignation and fire in the eyes of people protesting something that matters to them.

Every single republican, TV-host, democrat, whatever who haven't told Trump to feck off from the very start are complicit in this shit show.

If the US truly thinks they're the greatest democracy and all that shit they better start educating their population so they can actually engage with democracy.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
That he knows full well, but is trying to play smart.

Drainy, stick to James O'Brien soundbites mate.
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Stick to licking boots when they are killing the right people for you.

She didn't have the right to be there but she should not have been shot either. I don't support her message but she shouldn't be killed. That's the point.
 
Maagge said:
What pisses me off is the fact they all look like they're on a great piss-up in the pictures. They're just having a laugh. All because they know law enforcement won't bother doing anything about them. Compare that to the indignation and fire in the eyes of people protesting something that matters to them.

Every single republican, TV-host, democrat, whatever who haven't told Trump to feck off from the very start are complicit in this shit show.

If the US truly thinks they're the greatest democracy and all that shit they better start educating their population so they can actually engage with democracy.
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Excellent point, all in fancy dress having a laugh, especially when they’re apparently there for a reason?

When you look at the passionate footage and photos of the BLM protest where it truly mattered to them.
 
I don't know why people are calling them "unarmed civilians" or "protesters", they stormed a government building to disrupt democracy, they are terrorists.
 
Maagge said:
What pisses me off is the fact they all look like they're on a great piss-up in the pictures. They're just having a laugh. All because they know law enforcement won't bother doing anything about them. Compare that to the indignation and fire in the eyes of people protesting something that matters to them.
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Yep. It's the entitlement. They don't even think they are doing anything wrong.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
I don't know why people are calling them "unarmed civilians" or "protesters", they stormed a government building to disrupt democracy, they are terrorists.
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I thought this last night...it's basically an attack on democracy which in the past is the line that is used when terrorism happens. "It's an attack on our democracy".

Trump is the Bin Laden, brainwashing his followers to do his bidding.
 
Read enough of history to know when a country reaches this point, often there's no way back.
 
Drainy said:
Stick to licking boots when they are killing the right people for you.

She didn't have the right to be there but she should not have been shot either. I don't support her message but she shouldn't be killed. That's the point.
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Still confused I see?

If BLM protestors, liberals, or hell, my own brother tried violently storming the US Capitol, full to the brim with the US senate, ignored a barricade and warnings from armed secret service officers and police with their weapons out to stand down.... yes they'd deserve to be shot ffs.

You keep James O'Brien-ing it and trying to make it out as us v. them, when it's actually not at all about that. It's about people putting themselves in a situation where they are asking, in fact, demanding, to be shot.

It's actually made worse that she was ex military, ffs, she knows full well that a line was drawn there and that was the "no pass zone". Absolutely tragic, the stupidity of it.
 
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What a day for the greatest country and democracy in the world™.

I wonder what happens next if Trump keeps spewing his bullshit. Will the protests grow and get more violent?
 
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