Nope - Biden is accused of being complicit in genocide, Trump should have been (probably Obama as well) but isn't, apparently voting for Biden means you support it but voting for Trump isn't seen as supporting it
2024 U.S. Elections
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
ok yeah thats basically correct. trump has caused far less death in foreign policy than biden
Biden would be less bad.
Have you not seen the way everyone despises maga voters?
We agree, and there is only one way that option happens. That is the frustrating thing, knowing your options are very bad and less bad, but that it will come down to the finest of margins to chose the less bad path.
If Trump wins he'll have way more blood on his hands because of his stance on Ukraine, and if he doesn't fulfil the US's NATO obligations as he says he won't then everyone is in deep shit!
My red line is not universal, if other people have different ones they should vote according to that. As I've said before, I don't envy american voters.
Of course I have, why do you think @WI_Red and others are voting Biden
I dont care about nato
You said "voting for Biden means you support it but voting for Trump isn't seen as supporting it" and that's not true, people blame maga voters all the time for supporting trump's evil policies.
Does that mean all voters want something specific to happen? Of course not. Do I think voting for biden means you support genocide? Obviously not. But voting is support and voters need to own up to it, they can't be pick and choose.
Well you should, because if the US doesn't fulfil it's obligations then it will become a pariah state with much of the western world, certainly in Europe
You're the one encouaging people not to vote for Biden because he's supporting genocide, the alternative is Trump
I don't think voting for Biden is supporting it and I don't think voting for Trump is either, but everything else about Trump is bad, so the former is the lesser of 2 evils
Have any of yall seen this shit from the Heritage Foundation? The plan they want to put in place should they win this election…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
https://www.project2025.org/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
https://www.project2025.org/
The War Powers Act of 1973, which explicitly gives Congres power over declaring war, has been successfully used only once. It was in 2019-20, when a bipartisan effort got a 247-275 majority in the House and 54 votes in the Senate, to get the US to stop refueling Saudi planes heading to bomb Yemen.
It was vetoed by Trump.
Military aid to Israel just passed the House 366-58 and the Senate 79-18, and the president signed it enthusiastically.
I get that, and since you are not a voter here I think it would be unfair to group you in with American voters, but I just can’t understand a thought process that essentially says “Of the two options Biden is less awful but I will not do the one thing I can to prevent the other option” unless the person is a nihilist or is banking on others to do the job for them. People have to vote for Biden to prevent Trump, especially in the handful of swing States.
As for your post above, I disagree with the sentiment that voting for a candidate means you support every position and action they take. Every candidate I have ever voted for has done or said things I do not support, but I vote for them anyway because that will always be the case unless you yourself are the candidate.
It’s apparently no big deal, so totally don’t worry about it. Just stop watching msnbc.
oh no
correct
See, Eboue says it’s no big deal and the next Trump administration will be totally benign with no problems and good vibes everywhere. Just like the first one.
For your first para, are there any red lines for you at all?
It's always least-worst, so, my question is, is there any "worse" that will get you to stop? What's being talked about here is (IMO) ethnic cleansing and (for many people) a genocide.
So...voting for Mussolini to stop Hitler? Will you vote for Hitler to stop Reinhard Heydrich? If you don't vote for Hitler, are you responsible for Heydrich's more brutal Holocaust and occupations? If you do vote for Hitler, is your conscience clean?
And if your answer to stretching this least-bad premise to a logical limit is that its ridiculous, maybe then you can come back to the concept of a red line, and why many people have it in relation to voting for genocide?
e - the funny thing is, about a month or two ago, there was unironic debate and unanimous support among liberals on twitter for voting for "99% Hitler" (direct quote) in an election against Hitler.
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I see the "left wing" caf trolls are having a circle jerk. How far are we from Biden is a child killing paedophile?
ah yes, everyone who doesnt agree with me is a troll
Who said anything about a clean conscience? This is not about feeling morally righteous about doing a good thing, it’s about making a pragmatic choice that I believe will be the least bad for the most people.
Someone has a red line that Biden has crossed and so they will not vote for him? Fine, but at least be honest and say that you are ok with Trump winning.
So that's another vote for Hitler?
About "being fine with Trump winning*" - I can't be bothered to find the exact post (partly because I'm not sure which thread it was in), but I remember you and a few others saying it's wrong/ridiculous to hold Biden voters responsible for his direct actions (like the slaughter in Gaza). Do you still believe that?
For myself, as a US resident but not a citizen/voter - Trump winning will hurt me in two ways - it will make it harder or impossible to get a visa, and it will make it harder or impossible to continue in my job (which relies on tenuous NIH/NSF funding). Not even close to the worst victims of Trump 2.0, but I will be personally affected in a pretty negative way by his election.
I've said before that my vote in this Indian election would be for a fascist party to keep a different fascist party out. So I more than understand your thinking. All I'm saying is I also understand those who have red line.
*I assume this goes beyond the abstraction of him winning the election to the practical consequences of what he does in office.
Biden is a despicable cnut child killer (not pedophile yet) but he is a better alternative than Trump, so if he doesn't die of old age while pissing, I hope is the next POTUS. I am so happpy that I can't vote though, it would be a disgusting vote and maybe I would abstain
Wtf are you on about?
Yep. Absolutely batshit.
It was a dig to my admire several posts above. Just to clarify, I have 0 reasons to think that he is a pedophile
numbers?
Are we doing this again?
You have 4 options in November (lumping all 3rd party candidates together). Only 1 is likely to prevent a Trump second term. That's not an opinion, it's statistical fact.
If the sum of your utility on all issues (some kind of benefit/harm multiplied by likelihood) of Trump is greater than Biden, you should vote for Trump. If you place an infinity of harm on any one issue, and assign that to only one candidate, then you decide that way. (I.e. your red line). That's fine, but in my opinion irrational and detrimental to the world. But it's your opinion, your vote, so you be you.
What seems the incredibly likely outcome here is that enough liberals aghast at Biden's inability to reign in Israel will choose not to vote for him, Trump will sneak into power and make things worse in every area, including Gaza, at which point said non-voters will hopefully reconsider their staunch position if, there is in fact another election.
Personally I'm trying to make my peace with a second Trump term as the maga voters need to suffer, more, because clearly the actual actions and words of Trump mean nothing to them, and they're so poorly educated on important topics that the only way you can reach them is through actually seeing what a god-awful choice Trump is for them personally. Maybe another 4 years will be enough. Like lancing a boil. Which Trump is. They believe that sticking it to the system, to the elites is a good way to show their displeasure at how the country seems to have abandoned them, when in fact all it will do is remove more of the safety-nets they require to live, remove rights that are crucial to their future well-being and create an even larger gap between themselves and the elites.
You have 4 options in November (lumping all 3rd party candidates together). Only 1 is likely to prevent a Trump second term. That's not an opinion, it's statistical fact.
If the sum of your utility on all issues (some kind of benefit/harm multiplied by likelihood) of Trump is greater than Biden, you should vote for Trump. If you place an infinity of harm on any one issue, and assign that to only one candidate, then you decide that way. (I.e. your red line). That's fine, but in my opinion irrational and detrimental to the world. But it's your opinion, your vote, so you be you.
What seems the incredibly likely outcome here is that enough liberals aghast at Biden's inability to reign in Israel will choose not to vote for him, Trump will sneak into power and make things worse in every area, including Gaza, at which point said non-voters will hopefully reconsider their staunch position if, there is in fact another election.
Personally I'm trying to make my peace with a second Trump term as the maga voters need to suffer, more, because clearly the actual actions and words of Trump mean nothing to them, and they're so poorly educated on important topics that the only way you can reach them is through actually seeing what a god-awful choice Trump is for them personally. Maybe another 4 years will be enough. Like lancing a boil. Which Trump is. They believe that sticking it to the system, to the elites is a good way to show their displeasure at how the country seems to have abandoned them, when in fact all it will do is remove more of the safety-nets they require to live, remove rights that are crucial to their future well-being and create an even larger gap between themselves and the elites.
Forget Biden and Trump. Maybe the real answer is that RFK Jr must win.
People "learning their lesson" from 4 more years of Trump doesn't matter, when Trump replaces Alito and Thomas with 25 year old christo-facsists.
Cause there is no way in hell dems are holding the senate, if Biden loses the election.
Cause there is no way in hell dems are holding the senate, if Biden loses the election.
I obviously agree, but I'm trying to respond to the 'Gaza is the only issue' posters.
I also think if that happens, the dems will be forced to (some time in the future) change the court structure, because even the most idiotic person shoudl eb able to see that having a minority represented by a majority on the most important court in the land is incredibly undemocratic.
Well, the senate is an institution controlled by the minority by design, that's what have lead to this super-conservative court in the first place.
Probably the biggest regret dems will have in 20-22 was not giving Puerto Rico and/or DC statehood.
They need to level the playing field in the senate, otherwise, it will always be an uphill battle to control it.
Republicans will take back what is supposed to be their senate seat in WV this election, dems may squeek out one last term in Ohio and Montana, but after that, these states are gone.
Where can dems make up for it? Wisconsin and Maine, basically, can't afford to lose these states anymore.
They need more states they can win in.
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I think you mean Puerto Rico or else something really weird happened while I was sleeping.
Yeah, Puerto Rico.
RFK Jr will only be on the ballot in the swing states so there is no way he can win. He is being funded by a person who is also funding Trump in hopes he pulls votes away from Biden in swing states.
Correction, he is only on in 5 states officially. He claims he is on in 15 but only 5 states agree (Utah, Oklahoma, Michigan, Delaware, Hawaii). So really, only one swing state so far.
If moderate centrists applied the same pressure to biden to change course that they apply to leftists who say they won't vote for biden, that would be a much better use of their time and energy.