A BIG Question: Torres or Mascherano?

[p_ps_sock]

You disagree completely?!? Then say that Ole and Saha have had injury problems-that's what I said! OK Smith hasn't always been injured but it's a terrible injury to come back from....could take time to get back to his best. Besides Fergie couldn't think he was that great as a striker because he played him in midfield for the whole of last season!!!

And it's not a question of having 4 strikers to choose from and saying there'll always be one to put in. None of the strikers that we have are as good as RVN (150 goals in 200 games). As far as i'm concerned playing any of the others will make us weaker up front than we have been.

How do you know if Rossi will be brilliant?!? OK he looks really good but how many players have been touted for the top and have ended up at Preston, Burnley and many other Championship sides! I see alot of people praising the youngsters saying how great Jones, Rossi, Pique, Martin.......are but the same thing was said about Chadwick, O'Kane, Pugh.....I could go on for ages. I am not saying that the youngsters we have are not good enough (they may turn out to be better than the youngsters of the early 90's) but it's a MASSIVE risk to not cover all the bases!

I disagree that it would be foolish not to buy in a replacement for Ruud, not with your reasons but your conclusion.

Ruud scored alot of goals, but after he was left out last season we scored lots of goals, but they were shared around because the team played better without him.

I question the need for an out and out goal scorer, the team looked excellent going forward the latter part of last season, Saha's movement and pace created openings for rooney, ronaldo and giggs that just weren't there earlier in the season.

Smith was played in midfield not because he was a bad striker but because we were desperate for a midfielder and fergie (in consultation with keane) decided that smith had similar mental attributes to the man himself and so was worth a go in CM, it didn't work out (apart from against chelsea) so he'll be back were he's best next season.

I don't know for certain that Rossi will be a great player, but I don't know for certain that Rooney will continue to develop, I'm just judging on what I've seen, and I don't remember anyone tipping Chadwick, O'kane or Pugh for the top, they may have been singled out as having potential by SAF but they never showed the promise that Rossi has.

 

[Redfighter]

I disagree that it would be foolish not to buy in a replacement for Ruud, not with your reasons but your conclusion.

Ruud scored alot of goals, but after he was left out last season we scored lots of goals, but they were shared around because the team played better without him.

I question the need for an out and out goal scorer, the team looked excellent going forward the latter part of last season, Saha's movement and pace created openings for rooney, ronaldo and giggs that just weren't there earlier in the season.

Smith was played in midfield not because he was a bad striker but because we were desperate for a midfielder and fergie (in consultation with keane) decided that smith had similar mental attributes to the man himself and so was worth a go in CM, it didn't work out (apart from against chelsea) so he'll be back were he's best next season.

I don't know for certain that Rossi will be a great player, but I don't know for certain that Rooney will continue to develop, I'm just judging on what I've seen, and I don't remember anyone tipping Chadwick, O'kane or Pugh for the top, they may have been singled out as having potential by SAF but they never showed the promise that Rossi has.

Agreed, Rossi has shone in the reserves. I can't remember many youngsters getting the praise that Rossi has, apart from Giggs, Scholes etc, but even then, there was only really Giggsy that was hailed as a world beater.

Fergie is very careful with his praise for younger players, he obviously believes that Rossi can make it in the first team.

 

[izzydiggler]

But at the end of the day Rossi needs his chance. I we buy Torres he'll never get it as we'll have the 2 best young strikers in the world up front.

However, I'm with you, we need proven quality, and although some may argue that Torres isn't proven in the EPL, we can see from the World Cup that he has everything we need.

Ideally we should get Torres (dream i know) then give Rossi a season or so on loan. We'll have 5 experienced strikers, Rooney, Torres, Saha, Smith and Ole.

Mint

I honestly think Torres would be absolutely brilliant. I watch Spanish football and he has so much ability. He has pace, power, skill and is graceful. I don't care if Saha scores 40, he is not as good as Torres and if we want to challenge Chelsea we need players like him. Rooney and Torres together would be amazing. It has been argued that he's a bit hit and miss but playing in a mid table side against the likes of Madrid and Barca cannot be easy. Just hoping that we could get him.........

It's a hard one regarding Rossi. Do we blood youngsters and forfeit a realistic chance to win the league or not give them a chance? I don't think we have enough leaders on the pitch to help the youngsters..OK there is Neville, VDS but the likes of Giggs and Scholes although vastly experienced are not really leaders. In 94 you had Bruce, Pallister, Schmeichel, Keane, Ince, Hughes, Keane, Robbo, Cantona mixed with youth....but I think it would be better to offload Rossi to another club and in a year or 2 he should be ready!

 

[Redfighter]

I honestly think Torres would be absolutely brilliant. I watch Spanish football and he has so much ability. He has pace, power, skill and is graceful. I don't care if Saha scores 40, he is not as good as Torres and if we want to challenge Chelsea we need players like him. Rooney and Torres together would be amazing. It has been argued that he's a bit hit and miss but playing in a mid table side against the likes of Madrid and Barca cannot be easy. Just hoping that we could get him.........

It's a hard one regarding Rossi. Do we blood youngsters and forfeit a realistic chance to win the league or not give them a chance? I don't think we have enough leaders on the pitch to help the youngsters..OK there is Neville, VDS but the likes of Giggs and Scholes although vastly experienced are not really leaders. In 94 you had Bruce, Pallister, Schmeichel, Keane, Ince, Hughes, Keane, Robbo, Cantona mixed with youth....but I think it would be better to offload Rossi to another club and in a year or 2 he should be ready!

But if we get Torres, who's young, there maybe no room for Rossi in 2 years or more. Rooney and Torres could be our strike force for the next decade!

 

[p_ps_sock]

I honestly think Torres would be absolutely brilliant. I watch Spanish football and he has so much ability. He has pace, power, skill and is graceful. I don't care if Saha scores 40, he is not as good as Torres and if we want to challenge Chelsea we need players like him. Rooney and Torres together would be amazing. It has been argued that he's a bit hit and miss but playing in a mid table side against the likes of Madrid and Barca cannot be easy. Just hoping that we could get him.........

It's a hard one regarding Rossi. Do we blood youngsters and forfeit a realistic chance to win the league or not give them a chance? I don't think we have enough leaders on the pitch to help the youngsters..OK there is Neville, VDS but the likes of Giggs and Scholes although vastly experienced are not really leaders. In 94 you had Bruce, Pallister, Schmeichel, Keane, Ince, Hughes, Keane, Robbo, Cantona mixed with youth....but I think it would be better to offload Rossi to another club and in a year or 2 he should be ready!

ready for what? If we buy torres we'd have Rooney, Torres, Saha and Smith, he'd be fourth or fifth choice unless he went on loan to another prem club and scored a bucket load.

The problem with the team (without Ruud) wasn't goal scoring but a lack of a top class central midfield, it looks like we have carrick who is certainly an improvement on the current options, but we still have no 'enforcer' or what ever you want to call it, someone to stop the opposition in their tracks and impose themselves in there, Senna would probably go this job adequately for 2 seasons, but is it worth spending 10m euros on him now to be left in the same position in 2 years time, but without the option of signing Mascherano (assuming of course that we have that option now).

The simple fact is that we have 4 or 5 first team strikers at the club, including one world class who looks to have already formed a fantastic understanding with Saha (who if given regular first team action I feel could really become top class), but we have no options in midfield when it comes to defensive duties, for all the will in the world O'Shea isn't and will never be good enough to do it against the best in midfield, Senna may perform well but is 30 and there are question marks over whether he'd adjust to prem given his age and where he's coming from.

 

[Mainoldo]

ready for what? If we buy torres we'd have Rooney, Torres, Saha and Smith, he'd be fourth or fifth choice unless he went on loan to another prem club and scored a bucket load.

The problem with the team (without Ruud) wasn't goal scoring but a lack of a top class central midfield, it looks like we have carrick who is certainly an improvement on the current options, but we still have no 'enforcer' or what ever you want to call it, someone to stop the opposition in their tracks and impose themselves in there, Senna would probably go this job adequately for 2 seasons, but is it worth spending 10m euros on him now to be left in the same position in 2 years time, but without the option of signing Mascherano (assuming of course that we have that option now).

The simple fact is that we have 4 or 5 first team strikers at the club, including one world class who looks to have already formed a fantastic understanding with Saha (who if given regular first team action I feel could really become top class), but we have no options in midfield when it comes to defensive duties, for all the will in the world O'Shea isn't and will never be good enough to do it against the best in midfield, Senna may perform well but is 30 and there are question marks over whether he'd adjust to prem given his age and where he's coming from.

Except for Rooney our strikers aren't good enough and Fergie knows it!! Don't get me wrong Saha is a good player but we can't rely on him to play a full season and apart from him we have no leading front man. The problem isn't Ruud's goals that we will be missing but it is what Ruud offers in attack that we will miss and that is leading the front line!!

 

[Redfighter]

Except for Rooney our strikers aren't good enough and Fergie knows it!! Don't get me wrong Saha is a good player but we can't rely on him to play a full season and apart from him we have no leading front man. The problem isn't Ruud's goals that we will be missing but it is what Ruud offers in attack that we will miss and that is leading the front line!!

But we looked better in our approach play last season with Saha ran than Van. It was to do with Saha's pace. There were several occasions when Van was played through but didn't have the pace to get there ahead of the defender. I don't think we'll suffer in the approach, I just think that we are all wary of relying on Saha, and lets face it, we can't.

 

[Mainoldo]

But we were even more deadly because we had the like of Van on the bench to come on if needed... That type of strength in depth that will be needed for a long hard season, basically i'm saying the options aren't good enough

 

[p_ps_sock]

But we were even more deadly because we had the like of Van on the bench to come on if needed... That type of strength in depth that will be needed for a long hard season, basically i'm saying the options aren't good enough

We'd only be sure when the season's over, there's always the chance of injury's or that your strikers just won't fire (look at liverpool ffs), I think 4 + rossi is plenty myself, and I think Rooney and Saha looks the most promising partnership since Yorke and Cole (neither considered world beaters on their own but totally devastating together).

 

[Redfighter]

But we were even more deadly because we had the like of Van on the bench to come on if needed... That type of strength in depth that will be needed for a long hard season, basically i'm saying the options aren't good enough

Agree, we can't expect Saha and Rooney to play every game and the attack looks insufficient without them.

 

[Redfighter]

We'd only be sure when the season's over, there's always the chance of injury's or that your strikers just won't fire (look at liverpool ffs), I think 4 + rossi is plenty myself, and I think Rooney and Saha looks the most promising partnership since Yorke and Cole (neither considered world beaters on their own but totally devastating together).

Since when wasn't Rooney considered a world beater!?!

 

[p_ps_sock]

Since when wasn't Rooney considered a world beater!?!

how did I imply that he wasn't???

I was talking about Yorke and Cole not Rooney.

 

[Redfighter]

how did I imply that he wasn't???

I was talking about Yorke and Cole not Rooney.

Sorry misread your post, thougt you meant Saha and Rooney, Sorry

 

[Instant Karma]

Since when wasn't Rooney considered a world beater!?!

Ever since he was born uptil now....outside of England that is.
He has all the talent but just one good season in the league doesn't make him a world beater. He has scored 2 goals in 30+ games for England after the Euro's and hasnt scored in 13 games for United in Europe. A long way to go before he is considered a world beater.

 

[Ern]

Trezeguet
Toni
Torres
Zlatan
Cassano
Kuyt
Huntelaar (maybe)

There's options you can't argue that they're not avaliable

Please, not those two

 

[RockOfGibraltar]

Is there no truth in the alleged fact that Mascherano's contract runs for one more season, thus making him a free agent in a year?

Dunno where I read that, but I did.

 

[p_ps_sock]

Is there no truth in the alleged fact that Mascherano's contract runs for one more season, thus making him a free agent in a year?

Dunno where I read that, but I did.

I've read that Tevez's contract expires in December this year with a 3 year option if both MSI and Tevez agree.

As for Mascherano I read a quote from him saying he had a contract until 2010.

 

[RockOfGibraltar]

I've read that Tevez's contract expires in December this year with a 3 year option if both MSI and Tevez agree.

As for Mascherano I read a quote from him saying he had a contract until 2010.

Right, so it was Tevez then. In that case it'd be pretty retarded to pay for a player in August, who could quite possibly be available on a free in January.

Either way, who want's Tevez at United? I'd rather sign Luca Toni.

 

[p_ps_sock]

Right, so it was Tevez then. In that case it'd be pretty retarded to pay for a player in August, who could quite possibly be available on a free in January.

Either way, who want's Tevez at United? I'd rather sign Luca Toni.

I'm ambivalent about Tevez, he's a fine player who would be a success in the Prem and in Europe, my reservation is would him and Rooney be able to play together.

I think it can't happen and then think of Yorke and Cole, their pace, movement and understanding was devastating and if Rooney and Tevez could get that kind of link, well, it doesn't bear thinking about for fear of wetting myself, a HUGE risk though.

 

[433tom]

Right, so it was Tevez then. In that case it'd be pretty retarded to pay for a player in August, who could quite possibly be available on a free in January.

Either way, who want's Tevez at United? I'd rather sign Luca Toni.

Tevez 22.. Toni 29

 

[KingMinger22]

Torres over Tevez.


Tevez seems too similar to Rooney for me.

 

[RockOfGibraltar]

Tevez 22.. Toni 29

Yeah, but he's not the right kind of player to replace Ruud, IMO. He's not a 20+ a season striker, more of a playmaker like Rooney...

I mention Toni because, to me, he's a 'Ruud' type striker, a great replacement, if not a bit old....

 

[kanchelskis14]

We should bring Towers to our equipment.

 

[marcus agrippa]

Yeah, but he's not the right kind of player to replace Ruud, IMO. He's not a 20+ a season striker, more of a playmaker like Rooney...

I mention Toni because, to me, he's a 'Ruud' type striker, a great replacement, if not a bit old....

people keep saying we need a '20-goal-a-season striker' . what i want to know is, in the premiership era and prior to Ruud, did we ever have one?

Hint: the answer is no.

 

[Justin]

people keep saying we need a '20-goal-a-season striker' . what i want to know is, in the premiership era and prior to Ruud, did we ever have one?

Hint: the answer is no.

It's mostly because we've been playing with the one pure striker up front, whereas before we used to rotate the two strikers with 3 or 4 players getting 10-15 each.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Give me Macherano. We could get Zlatan on loan from Juve............

 

[bbest]

why is the press keeps harping on the torres' issue? didn't he announce his decison to stay put?

EXCLUSIVE 14 DAYS TO GO AND IT'S GETTING HEAVY AT OT SEASON 2006-07
By Steve Bates
MANCHESTER UNITED will attempt this week to raise the £27million they need to sign Spanish striker Fernando Torres from Atletico Madrid.

The 22-year-old star is hoping United can put together a package to take him to Old Trafford - and is in constant touch with agents who are trying to make the deal happen.

Despite publicly stating he was happy to stay in Madrid for another season, Torres is privately desperate to join United.

But it's believed there are serious concerns that the club - now owned by American tycoon Malcolm Glazer - are struggling to raise the funds for a deal that at one time would have been no problem.

United have been forced to pay over the odds for Michael Carrick, although the initial £13 million fee is way below the staggering £19million that Spurs were demanding.

Tottenham have re-adjusted that figure but United could still end up paying around £17 million if both they and Carrick meet Champions League and Premiership targets as part of the 'add ons'.

And Ferguson is also poised to pay £3million for Villarreal's experienced midfielder Marcos Senna this week.

I understand a deal for Senna is virtually done and he is expected to arrive at Old Trafford this week.

That would leave Torres as Ferguson's one remaining - and most important - target of the summer.

The youngster is one of the few top-rated stars in Europe who is not at a so-called 'big' club - and he's set his sights on United rather than Chelsea.

That's encouraging news for Ferguson - but finding the cash to fund the deal could prove a bigger stumbling block than convincing Atletico to sell him.

The Glazer family recently renegotiated the loan payments on the massive debt they took on to buy the club for over £800 million over a year ago.

Chief Executive David Gill promised earlier this year that the club would make "two big signings this summer" but while Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs have all been active, United have been slow to complete business.

Fans are concerned that with the newcampaign just over three weeks away, they've seen their prolific goal-scoring machine of the past five seasons, Ruud van Nistelrooy, ushered out to Real Madrid.

And that's why Fergie will this week press Gill to accelerate United's pursuit of Torres - or risk the wrath of worried fans.

 

[giggsyflying]

Mascherano defnitely
torres seems to be a talented but not yet proven world class while we have the minimum level of strikers in the squard though a bit risky with the injury prone saha but
our midfield is definitely worse than liverpooR, arse and chelski

 

[Ferguson]

I don't think that we need Torres. We have not only Rooney, Saha, Smith and Rossi, but also Scholes(with Carrick coming) and Ole (with Giggs back on the wing) available to cover the position. I do think we want Torres though. Torres would be the perfect complement for Rooney. Torres is tall and scores with his head. Torres holds off defenders with his strength and attracts attention thereby freeing Rooney to do damage poaching goals. Torres could play as an out and out centre forward while Rooney slots in behind him. Torres is young and could partner Rooney for many years to come. Tevez would need to play the same role as Rooney thus making him a waste of money and a poor complement to Rooney.

Mascherano fills a need, but I also heard his contract expires next year so perhaps we'll wait to go for him.

 

[kanchelskis14]

I don't think that we need Torres. We have not only Rooney, Saha, Smith and Rossi, but also Scholes(with Carrick coming) and Ole (with Giggs back on the wing) available to cover the position. I do think we want Torres though. Torres would be the perfect complement for Rooney. Torres is tall and scores with his head. Torres holds off defenders with his strength and attracts attention thereby freeing Rooney to do damage poaching goals. Torres could play as an out and out centre forward while Rooney slots in behind him. Torres is young and could partner Rooney for many years to come. Tevez would need to play the same role as Rooney thus making him a waste of money and a poor complement to Rooney.

Mascherano fills a need, but I also heard his contract expires next year so perhaps we'll wait to go for him.

So after reading all that, what is your opinion on Torres, as you have basically contradicted yourself above.

 

[Escobar]

why is the press keeps harping on the torres' issue? didn't he announce his decison to stay put?

The spanish press still says that Athletico might sell him, as Milan want him badly, and United as well. There are several reports in Spain who claim that he wants to move, but why should he give a press conference and state that he stays? Does not make much sense, but we'll see

 

[Ferguson]

So after reading all that, what is your opinion on Torres, as you have basically contradicted yourself above.

I didn't contradict myself. I said we want Torres long term, but we don't need him right this minute.

I don't know the business side. I can only speculate on which is more likely to appear at United before the summer is finished.

In absolute terms Torres is the bigger talent, but football is not a computer game.

 

[p_ps_sock]

The spanish press still says that Athletico might sell him, as Milan want him badly, and United as well. There are several reports in Spain who claim that he wants to move, but why should he give a press conference and state that he stays? Does not make much sense, but we'll see

people here seem to think that he doesn't want to look like the instigator of a move to athletico fans hence the press conference. If we make a bid and they accept he can move saying 'well I didn't want to go but they accepted a bid...'

Sounds like BS to me but stranger things have happened.

Still recon we should spend the money on Mascherano though.

 

[Raven Blade]

I really hope we can get Torres this year. However if we dont, all is not lost. We should sign a pre contract agreement for his transfer next summer.

Mascherano would be more important, I suppose, as we could do with one more midfielder. He would easily strengthen our team in the centre of midfield.

 

[Instant Karma]

people here seem to think that he doesn't want to look like the instigator of a move to athletico fans hence the press conference. If we make a bid and they accept he can move saying 'well I didn't want to go but they accepted a bid...'

Sounds like BS to me but stranger things have happened.

Still recon we should spend the money on Mascherano though.

Torres just has 2 years left on his contract and gave an interview that he will stay for another season atleast. He is the club captain and doesnt want to alienate the fans by saying he wants to leave. So he refuses to sign another contract and is basically forcing the club to consider selling him now rather than next season when his value will drop to 10 million because he just has a year left on contract. Also, Athletico have already spent 15 million on his replacement and also strengthened their midfield by getting the likes of Costinha. They are not a rich club and would consider selling Torres.

Have you seen Mascherano play other than in the World cup ? 25 million for him is a high risk when he hasnt played in any decent league. Kleberson and Veron looked brilliant when they played for their countries too.

 

[Mainoldo]

Torres just has 2 years left on his contract and gave an interview that he will stay for another season atleast. He is the club captain and doesnt want to alienate the fans by saying he wants to leave. So he refuses to sign another contract and is basically forcing the club to consider selling him now rather than next season when his value will drop to 10 million because he just has a year left on contract. Also, Athletico have already spent 15 million on his replacement and also strengthened their midfield by getting the likes of Costinha. They are not a rich club and would consider selling Torres.

Have you seen Mascherano play other than in the World cup ? 25 million for him is a high risk when he hasnt played in any decent league. Kleberson and Veron looked brilliant when they played for their countries too.

Agreed on the Torres bit but you can't compare Kleberson to Veron as Veron even though he never cut it in England was a World Class player before hand. As for Maskerano 25m would be a big risk but you don't make your debut for your Country before playing for your Clubs side for being an average player (Don't mention Walcott )

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The spanish press still says that Athletico might sell him, as Milan want him badly, and United as well. There are several reports in Spain who claim that he wants to move, but why should he give a press conference and state that he stays? Does not make much sense, but we'll see

I remember back in the day David Platt holding a press conference in the morning with Bari offcials claiming that he would never leave the club and he would not be heading to Juventus. That evening he arrived in Turin to pen a 3 year deal. Stranger things have happened.....

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Torres just has 2 years left on his contract and gave an interview that he will stay for another season atleast. He is the club captain and doesnt want to alienate the fans by saying he wants to leave. So he refuses to sign another contract and is basically forcing the club to consider selling him now rather than next season when his value will drop to 10 million because he just has a year left on contract. Also, Athletico have already spent 15 million on his replacement and also strengthened their midfield by getting the likes of Costinha. They are not a rich club and would consider selling Torres.

Have you seen Mascherano play other than in the World cup ? 25 million for him is a high risk when he hasnt played in any decent league. Kleberson and Veron looked brilliant when they played for their countries too.

Macherano by means of his talent is as much a risk as Rooney was. The type of risk that makes business men rich in the business world. a guranteed succes of a risk .....Besides I personally feel Torres would rather play for us than Milan so we could wait one more summer to get him.....Especially since Athletico are Wealthy enough to keep him....I don't remember them ever being broke even whn they went down....

 

[Redfighter]

The spanish press still says that Athletico might sell him, as Milan want him badly, and United as well. There are several reports in Spain who claim that he wants to move, but why should he give a press conference and state that he stays? Does not make much sense, but we'll see

I think Athletico just wanted to show that they weren't trying to sell him and Torres wanted to appease them. I think for the right money then he'll leave, hopefully we have the right money.

 

[Buddenbrook]

I think that the Torres deal may have been 'in place' all summer but dependable on the cost of United's midfield arrivals and the funds generated by the sale(s) of players.

Next week we might see this if the Carrick and Senna deals can be finalised. It could explain many things.