Abortion

[Red the Bear]

Yes I think a government should protect its citizens. I don't think the US is striving for that. At all.

Edit: Plus I believe protecting your citizens include women as well.

Us is like all governments , certainly aspiring to improve things is worthy cause.
I don't believe abortion is protecting a woman's well being or if its a right at all But it's one of those topics were I'll doubt we ever reach a consensus unless a major breakthrough in science happens and even that may not seal it.

 

[Denis79]

Yes I think a government should protect its citizens. I don't think the US is striving for that. At all.

Edit: Plus I believe protecting your citizens include women as well.

No it doesn't. Like the great Republican himself said, women are for grabbing by the pussy. If you're a women 50% of Americans feel it's ok for their president to sexually assault them. So the step to control their bodies isn't far off.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Mostly as an unfortunate pragmatic matter, that's why I also believe rape should be punished with the most severe terms.
And also the victim to be immediately prescribed contraceptive measures (they give them an injection right ? Im not too knowledgeable on the medical side of it) unless the victim chooses to keep the baby.
Its not perfect but hopefully with sever punitive measures against rape and such it could be severely reduced.

See this is where the logic sort of breaks down for the pro-life side, in my opinion. If you truly believe that life starts at conception, and that said life should be protected, you cannot call it a "pragmatic matter" to abort pregnancies that resulted from rape. It's actually much more logically consistent to simply be against all abortions. Alternatively, you could at least use the argument that the health of the mother is in danger if she carries the baby to term, because she would be at risk of suicide.

Also, severe punishment for rape and providing contraceptives is an entirely separate matter that cannot be used to justify abortions in these cases. You could put the death penalty on rape, and I guarantee you they would still happen.

 

[crappycraperson]

If anything, it's the perfect situation for Roberts. He gets to dissent, and keep the image of the serious, professional non-political Chief Justice.

To be fair even during arguments, he was trying to find a compromise by reducing the number of weeks for which an abortion could be allowed for. So despite his ideological leanings, I do think he is like other conservative judges in 90s who balked at overturning Roe due to the apparent damage it would cause to court's legitimacy in the eyes of the public. Regardless, this will be part of his legacy as CJ now, no escaping this stench. He has no control over the court.

 

[Eriku]

To put it succinctly, I believe life starts at conception and I also believe that the government has a duty to protect its citizens lives.
(I believe it could only protect lives not take it so I'm also against the death penalty but that's a whole other can of worms and frankly is almost extinct anyway)

You know that stats show that sex ed and safe access to abortion leads to outcomes where fewer abortions occur? Forcing this into the shadows is asking for more abortions, and fecked up complications from back-alley solutions.

 

[Maagge]

Us is like all governments , certainly aspiring to improve things is worthy cause.
I don't believe abortion is protecting a woman's well being or if its a right at all But it's one of those topics were I'll doubt we ever reach a consensus unless a major breakthrough in science happens and even that may not seal it.

It's not really a matter of believing abortion protects women or not. It does. Pregnancy itself is risky. Being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term results in some women finding unsafe ways of getting an abortion.

And where do you see the US aspiring to protect its citizens? It's not through healthcare that's for sure.

 

[Red the Bear]

See this is where the logic sort of breaks down for the pro-life side, in my opinion. If you truly believe that life starts at conception, and that said life should be protected, you cannot call it a "pragmatic matter" to abort pregnancies that resulted from rape. It's actually much more logically consistent to simply be against all abortions. Alternatively, you could at least use the argument that the health of the mother is in danger if she carries the baby to term, because she would be at risk of suicide.

Also, severe punishment for rape and providing contraceptives is an entirely separate matter that cannot be used to justify abortions in these cases. You could put the death penalty on rape, and I guarantee you they would still happen.

I kind am against it all forms of abortion , I just realize most people wouldn't be down on that,I'm simply being expedient, it would be far better off to simply have no abortion at all aside from the cases previously mentioned than it being a widely used contraceptive method.

There has been what? Close to a million abortions done in the past year alone and God knows what inmthe rest of the world so even if that number is halved , I would become immensely happy.

In the end nothing is in our control no matter how much we try , murders still happen in a day to day basis, doesn't mean we shouldn't have punitive and preventive measures installed.

 

[Red the Bear]

You know that stats show that sex ed and safe access to abortion leads to outcomes where fewer abortions occur? Forcing this into the shadows is asking for more abortions, and fecked up complications from back-alley solutions.

I'm not against sex ed at all , its one of my qualms with the extreme religious parts of the right .
Doesn't change my opinion on it , even if only one life is saved due to a woman balking at the thought of a shadowy abortion, its worth it in my eye.

 

[nimic]

Doesn't change my opinion on it , even if only one life is saved due to a woman balking at the thought of a shadowy abortion, its worth it in my eye.

He suggested fewer abortions would be the result, though.

 

[Eriku]

I'm not against sex ed at all , its one of my qualms with the extreme religious parts of the right .
Doesn't change my opinion on it , even if only one life is saved due to a woman balking at the thought of a shadowy abortion, its worth it in my eye.

It doesn’t though:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9253669/

There’s plenty of research on this. You’re just advocating more unsafe abortions.

Incidentally, the people who are doing the lord’s work in this have also been blocking the abortion of ectopic pregnancies, where a fertilized egg gets stuck in a falopian tube. That egg can never become a human, and will only kill the mother.

You’re in with some terrible bedfellows here.

 

[Maagge]

I kind am against it all forms of abortion , I just realize most people wouldn't be down on that,I'm simply being expedient, it would be far better off to simply have no abortion at all aside from the cases previously mentioned than it being a widely used contraceptive method.

This doesn't happen though. Sounds a lot like something you'd hear on Fox News.

 

[Redlyn]

Would you sign to raise all those children?

Why on earth would I do that. The one I adopted is sufficient for me.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I don't understand people who say abortion is murder, but also say, well in case of rape it might be okay. IF you find abortion to be murder, surely you would be against abortion no matter the circumstance?

 

[Adisa]

You lot are fecked.

 

[Red the Bear]

He suggested fewer abortions would be the result, though.

It doesn’t though:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9253669/

There’s plenty of research on this. You’re just advocating more unsafe abortions.

Incidentally, the people who are doing the lord’s work in this have also been blocking the abortion of ectopic pregnancies, where a fertilized egg gets stuck in a falopian tube. That egg can never become a human, and will only kill the mother.

You’re in with some terrible bedfellows here.

Seems like a bit of a backwards reasoning? Having access to abortion reduces abortion seems to be a disingenuous way to look at it.
I read some of those papers, the comparison is a bit ill intentioned I think, most of the cases they cite are abortion rates in developing countries which are of course much more poor and have lack of access to contraceptive methods compared to the more well developed and liberal countries where it has legal status(not to add the addition home abortions which are not captured in the census , and simply the fall of pregnancy rates), and from what infound on the internet , us seemed to have a much lower abortion rate before enactment of row v wade than after it(its arguable how many unrecognized abortions gone under the radar but there definitely was an increase in the first few years of its enactment than a continuous decline much more in line with dropping birth rates and an increase financial well being)

It seems that providing contraceptive methods to the populace , education and of course improvement of their financial situation does a lot more to reduce it than legalizing it.

I'm continually disturbed by the lackadaisical approach that has been Instilled in the newer generations regarding abortion , seeing it simply as another contraceptive method to use indiscriminately , an action which i find to be inherently immoral , i doubt having legalized it for this many years would have done anything good to revert that mentality.

As I said im not against abortions when the mother's life is in danger , them being associated to my cause does not make it any less legitimate, going down that road i could point out to how abortion has such unsavory origins in its current format as a measure of eugenics and planned parenthood being originally intentioned that way, in fact to this day the black populace has much higher abortion rates which suggests their financial situation does another more to induce such decisions.

One last thing is that we could talk extenuating and special cases such as rape and mother's life being in danger all we want but that doesn't change the fact that most abortions are simply taken out of convenience (a big big majority of it), while I sympathize a lot with poor people with the lack of education who it happens to them despite their intentions i can't spare any sympathy to say a well off white woman who simply got pregnant due to being careless and her decadent life style and looking at abortion to escape responsibility, we live in a time and age were any half responsible and well educated person has no excuse when it happens to them due to their own lack of discretion.

 

[nimic]

I'm continually disturbed by the lackadaisical approach that has been Instilled in the newer generations regarding abortion , seeing it simply as another contraceptive method to use indiscriminately

Honestly, this is a ridiculous attitude. It just doesn't match reality, and it's offensively dismissive of the incredibly tough choice women make when they get an abortion. There is a vanishingly small proportion of women whose relationship to abortion could ever be attached to the words "lackadaisical" and "indiscriminately".

 

[Red the Bear]

Honestly, this is a ridiculous attitude. It just doesn't match reality, and it's offensively dismissive of the incredibly tough choice women make when they get an abortion. There is a vanishingly small proportion of women whose relationship to abortion could ever be attached to the words "lackadaisical" and "indiscriminately".

I disagree, just look at the general attitude from the affirmative dide on the discussion. it's gone from bill saying in the 90s(safe, legal and Rare) To it being called a universal right for woman and even in some cases legalization of very late term abortions without even acknowledging the moral gray areas it entails.

 

[Denis79]

The US must be the one developed country that has the least regard for it's poorer citizens? from the Minimum wage laws, medical-care system and banning abortion. The country really loves fecking over their poor, weak and uneducated.

Then again the poor can't afford abortion anyways?

 

[Moby]

I disagree, just look at the general attitude from the affirmative dide on the discussion. it's gone from bill saying in the 90s(safe, legal and Rare) To it being called a universal right for woman and even in some cases legalization of very late term abortions without even acknowledging the moral gray areas it entails.

In what twisted fantasy world does providing legal right to all women of conducting an abortion equate to the ridiculous claim you made in your earlier post of woman using abortion indiscriminately? Genuinely mental series of posts with a fair bit of sexism thrown in.

 

[Withnail]

Seems like a bit of a backwards reasoning? Having access to abortion reduces abortion seems to be a disingenuous way to look at it.
I read some of those papers, the comparison is a bit ill intentioned I think, most of the cases they cite are abortion rates in developing countries which are of course much more poor and have lack of access to contraceptive methods compared to the more well developed and liberal countries where it has legal status(not to add the addition home abortions which are not captured in the census , and simply the fall of pregnancy rates), and from what infound on the internet , us seemed to have a much lower abortion rate before enactment of row v wade than after it(its arguable how many unrecognized abortions gone under the radar but there definitely was an increase in the first few years of its enactment than a continuous decline much more in line with dropping birth rates and an increase financial well being)

It seems that providing contraceptive methods to the populace , education and of course improvement of their financial situation does a lot more to reduce it than legalizing it.

I'm continually disturbed by the lackadaisical approach that has been Instilled in the newer generations regarding abortion , seeing it simply as another contraceptive method to use indiscriminately , an action which i find to be inherently immoral , i doubt having legalized it for this many years would have done anything good to revert that mentality.

As I said im not against abortions when the mother's life is in danger , them being associated to my cause does not make it any less legitimate, going down that road i could point out to how abortion has such unsavory origins in its current format as a measure of eugenics and planned parenthood being originally intentioned that way, in fact to this day the black populace has much higher abortion rates which suggests their financial situation does another more to induce such decisions.

One last thing is that we could talk extenuating and special cases such as rape and mother's life being in danger all we want but that doesn't change the fact that most abortions are simply taken out of convenience (a big big majority of it), while I sympathize a lot with poor people with the lack of education who it happens to them despite their intentions i can't spare any sympathy to say a well off white woman who simply got pregnant due to being careless and her decadent life style and looking at abortion to escape responsibility, we live in a time and age were any half responsible and well educated person has no excuse when it happens to them due to their own lack of discretion.

Where are you getting this idea that it's being used as a widespread form of contraception from? I've known a few people that have gone through it. They've agonised over it and it is not a pleasant experience to put it lightly.

I'm also interested in what you said about a scientific breakthrough around when life starts. What did you mean by that? What would this breakthrough prove and what more information would we have?

 

[Superden]

The US must be the one developed country that has the least regard for it's poorer citizens? from the Minimum wage laws, medical-care system and banning abortion. The country really loves fecking over their poor, weak and uneducated.

Then again the poor can't afford abortion anyways?

They really care about the women, they need to save them from evil life choices and abortion. If they happen to be poor and can't afford decent healthcare, and live in slums and experience all manner of discrimination, Well what can be done about that, its not for the state to interfere.

 

[Denis79]

They really care about the women, they need to save them from evil life choices and abortion. If they happen to be poor and can't afford decent healthcare, and live in slums and experience all manner of discrimination, Well what can be done about that, its not for the state to interfere.

How about the children born in to poverty. It's their own fault they go hungry?

 

[Red the Bear]

In what twisted fantasy world does providing legal right to all women of conducting an abortion equate to the ridiculous claim you made in your earlier post of woman using abortion indiscriminately? Genuinely mental series of posts with a fair bit of sexism thrown in.

Where are you getting this idea that it's being used as a widespread form of contraception from? I've known a few people that have gone through it. They've agonised over it and it is not a pleasant experience to put it lightly.

I'm also interested in what you said about a scientific breakthrough around when life starts. What did you mean by that? What would this breakthrough prove and what more information would we have?

I didn't say all use it indiscriminately , I've said there had definitely been a shift in attitude in some parts and I stand by that , call it whatever you want.
I can use anecdotes from the conversations or things that I've seen but I see no point.

By scientific breakthroughs I meant science somehow proving that life starts around a certain a point so you could have abortion before that for example but I don't think that will happen but what I'm hopeful of happened is a way for us to be able to get the embryo out and let its gestation happen in lets say a machine, this way the mother could get rid of the child without it having to cease ro exist.
This also means that countries should have a much more vast and organized orphanage system bit i won't mind a few more percentage points of my tax goes to that cause.

 

[Wibble]

You know feck it , I'm gonna say it great news.
Hopefully we get a federal ban as well aside from the obvious cases(rape, life of the mother being in danger etc etc)

What a ludicrous take.

Life is life from conception with an inviolate right to be considered exactly the same as an adult human or it isn't. You can't take that position and then include exception as if you allow exceptions then the existing situation is a far better exception than rape.

Of course you shouldn't need a stated reason at all as it is feck all to do with anyone else but the mother, but we seem to be well past that discussion point.

 

[Red the Bear]

What a ludicrous take.

Life is life from conception with an inviolate right to be considered exactly the same as an adult human or it isn't. You can't take that position and then include exception as if you allow exceptions then the existing situation is a far better exception than rape.

Of course you shouldn't need a stated reason at all as it is feck all to do with anyone else but the mother, but we seem to be well past that discussion point.

I answered that before.
A no abortion at all mentality is noble but won't happen in today's society it would still be a massive improvement overall.

Again most abortions have nothing to do with either rape or endangerment of mother's life framing it that way is dishonest.

Also her choice was when she chooses to have consensual sex with regards to it's outcomes not after.

 

[nimic]

Jesus.

 

[Oldyella]

The US must be the one developed country that has the least regard for it's poorer citizens? from the Minimum wage laws, medical-care system and banning abortion. The country really loves fecking over their poor, weak and uneducated.

Then again the poor can't afford abortion anyways?

Along with incarceration as a business racket, wide spread gun crime. An incredibly messed up country.

 

[Wibble]

Also her choice was when she chooses to have consensual sex with regards to it's outcomes not after.

The 1950's are missing you.

You don't get to tell a woman what to do with her body just because you have a religious belief. And I'd bet this hugely misogynistic opinion wouldn't even be a discussion if men carried the foetus.

 

[Withnail]

I didn't say all use it indiscriminately , I've said there had definitely been a shift in attitude in some parts and I stand by that , call it whatever you want.
I can use anecdotes from the conversations or things that I've seen but I see no point.

By scientific breakthroughs I meant science somehow proving that life starts around a certain a point so you could have abortion before that for example but I don't think that will happen but what I'm hopeful of happened is a way for us to be able to get the embryo out and let its gestation happen in lets say a machine, this way the mother could get rid of the child without it having to cease ro exist.
This also means that countries should have a much more vast and organized orphanage system bit i won't mind a few more percentage points of my tax goes to that cause.

I disagree on the first part and found some of the language used troublesome. Religious people talking about decadent lifestyles on topics like this winds me up so probably best we leave that one alone as you've given a lot of other reasons behind your decision.

I still don't know what you mean by 'life' I'm afraid. We already know when the embryo develops lungs, brain stem, heartbeat etc and when they take over various functions. I suppose it would depend what you consider life to be. I think some people see potential for life as life which to me it isn't at all.

As for the final point while it doesn't seem like a fully fledged idea, a matrix style incubator-orphanage sounds like the worst kind of distopian horror show to me.

 

[Relfy]

I was appalled hearing the news this morning that the US is thinking about stripping women of their right to abortion. I appreciate many places across the US may be (far) more religious than I am, or the UK for that matter as a whole, but this is a major step backwards and for the worse. No one actively goes out to seek pregnancy to then get an abortion - it is not nice for anyone involved. Forcing this upon women across the US will drive them to doctors that choose to continue to perform the procedure and are therefore likely unregistered, or force them into travelling far and wide, possibly abroad to undertake the procedure.

I personally don't think anyone has the right to dictate what one person, or in this case the entire female population, what they can and cannot do with their body. It is ultimately their body, their life and their choice. People need to take the feelings and lives of actual human beings into greater consideration over what they read in a book.

 

[Eriku]

@Red the Bear

Abortion rates in the US have (at least mostly) declined year on year since the early to mid 80’s, and in 2017 they saw the lowest numbers since it was made legal. Your assertions of there being this wave of lax attitudes towards abortion and that it is being treated as a contraceptive are bogus, and there hasn’t been found a connection between the legal restrictions and the lowering rates.

https://www.guttmacher.org/report/abortion-incidence-service-availability-us-2017

You are quite right that education and availability of contraceptives is very important. You should bang that drum more rather than bringing in your moral panic when there’s ample data debunking your claims.

 

[Cloud7]

but what I'm hopeful of happened is a way for us to be able to get the embryo out and let its gestation happen in lets say a machine, this way the mother could get rid of the child without it having to cease ro exist.

We don't live in the Matrix mate. This isn't likely to happen for several lifetimes, and quite frankly there are far more important matters with respect to healthcare that require funding and research than this.

 

[Red the Bear]

The 1950's are missing you.

You don't get to tell a woman what to do with her body just because you have a religious belief. And I'd bet this hugely misogynistic opinion wouldn't even be a discussion if men carried the foetus.

Not everything you don't like is sexism, I never once resorted name calling but you seem to act otherwise.
I don't care what a woman wants to do with her life its not my concern but I don't think terminating life is one of their rights , that simple.
The sexist angle doesn't stick either , I believe its a two way street, man have responsibilities as well , its already enshrined in law , if a woman chooses to keep the baby the man should pay for its upbringing not too bad.

Also for you information I in effect practice bo relegion.

 

[Red the Bear]

I disagree on the first part and found some of the language used troublesome. Religious people talking about decadent lifestyles on topics like this winds me up so probably best we leave that one alone as you've given a lot of other reasons behind your decision.

I still don't know what you mean by 'life' I'm afraid. We already know when the embryo develops lungs, brain stem, heartbeat etc and when they take over various functions. I suppose it would depend what you consider life to be. I think some people see potential for life as life which to me it isn't at all.

As for the final point while it doesn't seem like a fully fledged idea, a matrix style incubator-orphanage sounds like the worst kind of distopian horror show to me.

My language was probably to strong on that one, the better way ro say it is that I believe whenever a person has sex he should also consider the repercussions , having sex is a choice its neither a right or an entitlement, in fact sex by the most basic facts of nature was intended to be for procreation , the whole change of attitude towards it is due to the sex revolution and effective means of contraception, so I feel whenever your choosing to do it , consider the outcomes.

The nature of life as you said could become shady and enshrined in semantics, so the best way in my opinion is to consider life beginning at conception , better to take no risks when life is involved in my opinion. (Potential for life could be dubious as a spertm has potential for life which i disagree with but embryo has a developed DNA distinct from others , thats pretty solid in my opinion ).

It doesn’t necessarily have to be dystopian, better to let them incubate grow and have a relatively normal life in an orphanage than to kill them off.

 

[Red the Bear]

We don't live in the Matrix mate. This isn't likely to happen for several lifetimes, and quite frankly there are far more important matters with respect to healthcare that require funding and research than this.

I'm aware but it will eventually happen also progress in a certain field doesn't preclude progress in others.
And I was just theorizing about a future where we won't face such difficult questions, unfortunately were not already there.

 

[Massive Spanner]

feck you America.

 

[Red the Bear]

@Red the Bear

Abortion rates in the US have (at least mostly) declined year on year since the early to mid 80’s, and in 2017 they saw the lowest numbers since it was made legal. Your assertions of there being this wave of lax attitudes towards abortion and that it is being treated as a contraceptive are bogus, and there hasn’t been found a connection between the legal restrictions and the lowering rates.

https://www.guttmacher.org/report/abortion-incidence-service-availability-us-2017

You are quite right that education and availability of contraceptives is very important. You should bang that drum more rather than bringing in your moral panic when there’s ample data debunking your claims.

A : it still hasn't reached pre legalization levels
B : its probably mostly related to financial improvement of underprivileged people and fall of birth rates like the rest of the europe.
C : abortion is still a reprehensible act that no expedient matter will excuse its existence in my opinions.
And yeah contraceptives are important, intact I wouldn't mind a mandatory vasectomy of all adult males to be honest

 

[Maticmaker]

I don't care what a woman wants to do with her life its not my concern but I don't think terminating life is one of their rights , that simple.

This phrase "their rights" is used by both sides of Abortion (and many other arguments), 'right to choose', 'right to life', etc. What makes something 'a right', is it the law of the land? In which case who makes that law? Does everyone agree with every law? what about the rights of those who disagree with the 'law'?

For me 'a right' is something everyone agrees with , if not, then its something else... the law, an instinct, a belief, whatever, but not 'a right' .

I often wonder (based on my own family history) whether my mother, hence me, and my children, and grandchildren, would be alive today, if her mother could (as a right) obtained an abortion under the law (specific circumstances!)

 

[Moby]

I answered that before.
A no abortion at all mentality is noble but won't happen in today's society it would still be a massive improvement overall.

Again most abortions have nothing to do with either rape or endangerment of mother's life framing it that way is dishonest.

Also her choice was when she chooses to have consensual sex with regards to it's outcomes not after.

Reported.

 

[Red the Bear]

This phrase "their rights" is used by both sides of Abortion (and many other arguments), 'right to choose', 'right to life', etc. What makes something 'a right', is it the law of the land? In which case who makes that law? Does everyone agree with every law? what about the rights of those who disagree with the 'law'?

For me 'a right' is something everyone agrees with , if not, then its something else... the law, an instinct, a belief, whatever, but not 'a right' .

I often wonder (based on my own family history) whether my mother, hence me, and my children, and grandchildren, would be alive today, if her mother could (as a right) obtained an abortion under the law (specific circumstances!)

You make a good point but here's how I see it , every human has the right to life a mother choosing to take an abortion is infringing on her baby's life.

Its a whole can of worms that I think originates from the idea of God given rights during the enlightenment, its obviously gine through some secularization by now but it stands , every human has the right to live and be free etc etc it leaves a lot interpretation and is a bit cheesy but its much better than basing it on popular sentiment , for example in certain times slavery was widely accepted among the populace, doesn't make it any more correct.