Alex Salmond and Independence

The BBC has been censured for biased reporting several times.
Rightly so, I'm sure.

I don't know how exposed you are to the views of the Yes campaign but, good God, they don't half go on about it. "Institutional racism at the BBC! They used the wrong picture. Eddie Mair made his ginger girlfriend dye her hair. Andrew Marr urinates on haggis".
 
Picture on the front of the BBC News website.

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If I had as much energy as I have despair at the obsession, I would complain to Offcom that the Yes sign is slightly bigger.
 
Rightly so, I'm sure.

I don't know how exposed you are to the views of the Yes campaign but, good God, they don't half go on about it. "Institutional racism at the BBC! They used the wrong picture. Eddie Mair made his ginger girlfriend dye her hair. Andrew Marr urinates on haggis".
Tbh, most of the rhetoric you see is from the no campaign, which either tells its own story on media bias or reflects the lack of concrete policies of the yes campaign. Yes just seems to be AS bleating on while big business, currency experts etc all line up against the no lot.
The BBC's bias does get my goat now and then though tbf.
 
Tbh, most of the rhetoric you see is from the no campaign, which either tells its own story on media bias or reflects the lack of concrete policies of the yes campaign. Yes just seems to be AS bleating on while big business, currency experts etc all line up against the no lot.
The BBC's bias does get my goat now and then though tbf.
Yeah... I do think you've been sparred the worst of the Yes campaign if you think Salmond is as bad as it gets.
It's that even a real pic? The yes lot have a swankier sign there.
They do! Jaunty angles and everything. Biased media scum!
 
I think the Beeb has a major issue with the fact they have to present a more or less 50/50 split of opinion but the Yes side is full of young people who take to the streets and use social media and the No side is older people quietly grumbling in chip shops. They have to ignore the vast majority of the Yes campaign just to be remotely equal in coverage.
 
Also, whilst in on a posting spree... I'm surprised at the lack of Irish interest, on this forum, in this thread.

Scottish independence hugely increases the likelihood of a united Ireland, I think.
 
Not really. IIRC they had a vote or poll years ago, and most of the Norns were happy as part of the UK.
Yes but that's with the UK as present and Northern Ireland has great links to Scotland. I can't see Northern Ireland being comfortable being part of a union with just England and Wales for long.
 
I should probably sleep...

I shall leave y'all with my current Facebook profile pic, which I feel the better together campaign would be far better off using.

grumpy-cat-nope-pope-hd-grumpy-cat-as-disney-princesses--hilarious-or-creepy----page-3-image.jpg
 
I'm sorry if this seems stupid, but I've always wondered. Why now? Obviously there has been a Scottish nationalist sentiment for ages, but it seemed dead not so long ago. The media here in India is reporting that the yes campaign has the momentum, so I was wondering; what explains this surge? A few years ago, an independent Scotland seemed a pipe-dream. It seems a bit strange to me.
 
To me Alex Salmond just seems like the kid who at 13 years old has fallen out with his parents and has threatened to run away, without really thinking about the consequences.
Sooner or later he will be crying for mum and dad again. The amount of questions going unanswered by the yes campaign is staggering.
We're not talking about a discussion in parliment to bring in a new law or something like that, something that can be reversed relatively easily. We're talking about an entire country walking away from a stable union.
If Salmond had thought this whole thing through he might have a point, but I think he's just winging it at the moment.
 
I'm sorry if this seems stupid, but I've always wondered. Why now? Obviously there has been a Scottish nationalist sentiment for ages, but it seemed dead not so long ago. The media here in India is reporting that the yes campaign has the momentum, so I was wondering; what explains this surge? A few years ago, an independent Scotland seemed a pipe-dream. It seems a bit strange to me.

A Scot would probably disagree with me, but it seems from here like it's as simple as Alex Salmond turning up one day and telling Scots they can do it really easily and saying all the dreamy stuff that makes it sound really appealing and possible and easy.
 
Also, whilst in on a posting spree... I'm surprised at the lack of Irish interest, on this forum, in this thread.

Scottish independence hugely increases the likelihood of a united Ireland, I think.
Except it doesn't, in any way at all.
 
Rightly so, I'm sure.

I don't know how exposed you are to the views of the Yes campaign but, good God, they don't half go on about it. "Institutional racism at the BBC! They used the wrong picture. Eddie Mair made his ginger girlfriend dye her hair. Andrew Marr urinates on haggis".

I don't believe there is a deliberate attempt to back the no campaign and the Yes campaign has been cynical in its attempt to portray things that way but there is no avoiding the fact that there is an inherent bias in one of the biggest British cultural institutions when it comes to this topic they are players in this decision. I don't think the journos are even to blame but these editors deal day to day with Westminster media advisors and must keep them happy, they hold no such responsibility to the Scottish politicians.

And if you were referring to me with the 'they used the wrong picture', there is a huge difference between picture selection and what I mentioned. They overlooked the biggest city in Scotland being taken over by the Yes campaign for the day while focusing on the orange walk. Its not imaginary. Some bias does exist.
 
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Speaking of media bias, here's Chomsky telling us how Scots voting yes could play a role in a wider global movement for more direct democracy and autonomy

 
I'm sorry if this seems stupid, but I've always wondered. Why now? Obviously there has been a Scottish nationalist sentiment for ages, but it seemed dead not so long ago. The media here in India is reporting that the yes campaign has the momentum, so I was wondering; what explains this surge? A few years ago, an independent Scotland seemed a pipe-dream. It seems a bit strange to me.

It was once a nationalist pipe dream but the left has joined the coalition. Popularity and trust with Westminster politicians are lower than ever and there is no faith in the Labour Party that Scots once identified with.

It's clear to anyone on the ground that Alex Salmond was only key to the 30%ish that previously wanted it but has had nothing to do with it becoming a reality - the radical independence campaign and labour supporters for Indy are what make up the numbers. To believe Salmond is at the core of this swing is to miss the point completely.
 
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It was once a nationalist pipe dream but the left has joined the coalition. Popularity and trust with Westminster politicians are lower than ever and there is no faith in the Labour Party that Scots once identified with.

It's clear to anyone on the ground that Alex Salmond was only key to the 30%ish that previously wanted it but has had nothing to do with it becoming a reality - the radical independence campaign and labour supporters for Indy are what make up the numbers. To believe Salmond is at the core of this swing is to miss the point completely.

So correct me if I'm wrong, the yes movement seems to be driven more by dissatisfaction with Westminister rather than a surge in nationalistic feeling. If I'm not wrong, cuts in public spending in Britain seem to be important as well. Would it prevent a future Scottish government from going down the same road as the Cameron government? Another question, when you say the left, does it mean political parties or people who identify themselves with the left? I don't quite think there's a real left in mainstream politics anywhere, which is a pity because the left would temper the excesses of neo-liberalism and globalisation.
 
A Scot would probably disagree with me, but it seems from here like it's as simple as Alex Salmond turning up one day and telling Scots they can do it really easily and saying all the dreamy stuff that makes it sound really appealing and possible and easy.

Doesn't quite explain the numbers IMO. People aren't that sentimental, they don't decide on something as radical as this without there being a proper reason.
 
So correct me if I'm wrong, the yes movement seems to be driven more by dissatisfaction with Westminister rather than a surge in nationalistic feeling. If I'm not wrong, cuts in public spending in Britain seem to be important as well. Would it prevent a future Scottish government from going down the same road as the Cameron government? Another question, when you say the left, does it mean political parties or people who identify themselves with the left? I don't quite think there's a real left in mainstream politics anywhere, which is a pity because the left would temper the excesses of neo-liberalism and globalisation.

I think that if a referendum on Westminster was held in other parts of the UK, the results would not be for seperation but it would be pretty damning.

Public spending cuts are a question for the government we elect. I would expect them to continue but to be distributed differently and perhaps not be as drastic or not to be aimed directly at some of the poorest in our society or the disabled, like the bedroom tax - but this is pure speculation until Scotland elects someone.

When I say the left I mean the people who identify with the left. In terms of the political parties they support and whose infrastructure the campaign is benefiting from - around 2/5ths of the Labour movement in Scotland is for yes, along with minority parties (who have seen some representation in Scottish Parliament) the Scottish Socialist Party and The Scottish Greens. But plenty who have never voted before in working class areas are being motivated to vote, which is also adding significantly to the numbers.
 
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And yet even at this stage, none of the above parties have any concrete answers to the key economic questions. And it IS about economics - or it should be for the voters.

The nationalistic argument is moot because Scotland already has a distinct cultural identity which is not under threat and never has been. I lived in Glasgow for a year and I visit Scotland about twice a year to see the in-laws, and I am very much aware that I am in Scotland rather than England. The nationalistic arguments can very easily be interpreted as simply anti-English, since again you already do have a cultural identity and it is not something which has been oppressed or threatened in the slightest.

The main argument I see at the moment is "We want a government that we voted for" - well you have one, the SNP, they have been in the headlines quite a lot recently so I am surprised anyone missed it.
Seriously though, the only purpose of a government is to enact policy and legislature - which for the most part, is simply a means of controlling the economy in some way shape or form, so again this is what it boils down to - that you want your own government so they can control Scotlands economy "better".

It always comes down to economy and this is where there has been a massive lack of answers and information from YES. You can ignore this post and all the rest of them as much as you want, but putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and shouting "IM NOT LISTENING" wont work in reality. Everything that Salmond has come out with comes back to exaggerated revenue figures, best-case scenarios and unrealistic assumptions. It borders on the completely deluded - you only need to listen to the man to realise that he is completely out of ideas and just repeats the same tired anti-Westminster rhetoric at every possible opportunity, whilst dodging the serious questions.

Its all well and good to say that its the disillusioned labour supporters and radicals who are at the core of the movement, but have any of THEM produced a white paper and a serious, concrete set of numbers for how an independant Scotland is to be run? Didnt think so.
There is no blueprint, there is no plan - this is the truth of the matter for the YES campaign. It is also for this reason (and not just Westminster propaganda and bullying) that numerous companies are warning that they will relocate south in the event of independance. As a UK citizen this is great news - more jobs created and a more powerful economy. If I were Scottish however I would be more concerned, instead of just buying into Salmonds "scaremongering" rubbish that he spouts so freely.

To vote YES, frankly at the moment says that you dont really know much about economics or global politics. I wont claim to be an expert in either field, but the writing is plain and clear on the wall. Idle threats like refusing to take on national debt? Is that really how independant Scotland wants to become known? As a bad debtor? At a time where you will likely be seeking credit and loans on the international markets?
Taking on sterlingisation without the backing of the Bank of England? Really? How to you plan to build up the vast reserves of capital to bail out the next company that goes bust (that hasnt relocated)? How do you plan to run your economy smoothly with no control over monetary or fiscal policy? With interest rates set from Westminster, only now without them having any vested interest in how it affects north of the border.

How do you think it will affect trade if you arent given instant EU access? The simply transactional costs of trading with the rest of the EU will be enormous (the majority of which will likely be with the UK). The UK wont care - we will still be trading with the rest of the EU countries.

Lets look a bit further ahead, what will you do when the oil runs out? You can believe Salmonds figures that there is what 1.5Tn barrels left in the North Sea, or you can believe some of the more conservative estimates which predict that it will be drying up within anything from 2-6 years. Salmonds public spending figures are already ridiculously stretched, and those are based on his assumed best-case figures for Oil. If it turns out that Salmond is wrong (and is this really that unlikely?) then you will find things may take a turn for the worse sooner rather than later. Whats the plan B, wind power? Its a noble idea but far from reality at the moment, and most of the current spending on wind power in Scotland is subsidised from UK taxpayers, so unless you are suggesting that Scotland will somehow find the extra money to plug that gap and continue developments in that field, its pretty far fetched at the moment.


These are just the obvious questions off the top of my head, but if I were Scottish they would be very real and plain concerns, easily enough to determine my vote. To wilfully choose to ignore all of these concerns, is to show quite astonishing levels of ignorance, self-importance and frankly a brazen disregard for the future of Scotland.

Similarly, to vote YES simply to try to spite Westminster and the rUK is incredibly narrow sighted. Salmond has simply stirred so much hostility towards Westminster with his constant talk of bullying and intimidation, that it has started to rub off on people. I would hope sincerely that the typical Scot has more brains than to believe that sort of drivel and let Salmonds anti-Westminster agenda decide their vote.

Above all, it is still Westminster who have granted this referendum and agreed to honour it. It is Westminster that Salmond and Scotland will have to negotiate with to actually agree on the terms of independance - and yet here you are complaining about them.

Salmond has done well to divert peoples attention from the actual issue of what an independant Scotland will look like, and instead simply draw upon Scotlands dislike for Wesminster and the Tories - I hope that people can see past this and ask themselves the same questions I have asked above. If the answer to any of them is "I dont know" then you should really be thinking twice about a YES vote.
 
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And yet even at this stage, none of the above parties have any concrete answers to the key economic questions. And it IS about economics - or it should be for the voters.

The nationalistic argument is moot because Scotland already has a distinct cultural identity which is not under threat and never has been. I lived in Glasgow for a year and I visit Scotland about twice a year to see the in-laws, and I am very much aware that I am in Scotland rather than England. The nationalistic arguments can very easily be interpreted as simply anti-English, since again you already do have a cultural identity and it is not something which has been oppressed or threatened in the slightest.

The main argument I see at the moment is "We want a government that we voted for" - well you have one, the SNP, they have been in the headlines quite a lot recently so I am surprised anyone missed it.
Seriously though, the only purpose of a government is to enact policy and legislature - which for the most part, is simply a means of controlling the economy in some way shape or form, so again this is what it boils down to - that you want your own government so they can control Scotlands economy "better".

It always comes down to economy and this is where there has been a massive lack of answers and information from YES. You can ignore this post and all the rest of them as much as you want, but putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and shouting "IM NOT LISTENING" wont work in reality. Everything that Salmond has come out with comes back to exaggerated revenue figures, best-case scenarios and unrealistic assumptions. It borders on the completely deluded - you only need to listen to the man to realise that he is completely out of ideas and just repeats the same tired anti-Westminster rhetoric at every possible opportunity, whilst dodging the serious questions.

Its all well and good to say that its the disillusioned labour supporters and radicals who are at the core of the movement, but have any of THEM produced a white paper and a serious, concrete set of numbers for how an independant Scotland is to be run? Didnt think so.
There is no blueprint, there is no plan - this is the truth of the matter for the YES campaign. It is also for this reason (and not just Westminster propaganda and bullying) that numerous companies are warning that they will relocate south in the event of independance. As a UK citizen this is great news - more jobs created and a more powerful economy. If I were Scottish however I would be more concerned, instead of just buying into Salmonds "scaremongering" rubbish that he spouts so freely.

To vote YES, frankly at the moment says that you dont really know much about economics or global politics. I wont claim to be an expert in either field, but the writing is plain and clear on the wall. Idle threats like refusing to take on national debt? Is that really how independant Scotland wants to become known? As a bad debtor? At a time where you will likely be seeking credit and loans on the international markets?
Taking on sterlingisation without the backing of the Bank of England? Really? How to you plan to build up the vast reserves of capital to bail out the next company that goes bust (that hasnt relocated)? How do you plan to run your economy smoothly with no control over monetary or fiscal policy? With interest rates set from Westminster, only now without them having any vested interest in how it affects north of the border.

How do you think it will affect trade if you arent given instant EU access? The simply transactional costs of trading with the rest of the EU will be enormous (the majority of which will likely be with the UK). The UK wont care - we will still be trading with the rest of the EU countries.

Lets look a bit further ahead, what will you do when the oil runs out? You can believe Salmonds figures that there is what 1.5Tn barrels left in the North Sea, or you can believe some of the more conservative estimates which predict that it will be drying up within anything from 2-6 years. Salmonds public spending figures are already ridiculously stretched, and those are based on his assumed best-case figures for Oil. If it turns out that Salmond is wrong (and is this really that unlikely?) then you will find things may take a turn for the worse sooner rather than later. Whats the plan B, wind power? Its a noble idea but far from reality at the moment, and most of the current spending on wind power in Scotland is subsidised from UK taxpayers, so unless you are suggesting that Scotland will somehow find the extra money to plug that gap and continue developments in that field, its pretty far fetched at the moment.


These are just the obvious questions off the top of my head, but if I were Scottish they would be very real and plain concerns, easily enough to determine my vote. To wilfully choose to ignore all of these concerns, is to show quite astonishing levels of ignorance, self-importance and frankly a brazen disregard for the future of Scotland.

Similarly, to vote YES simply to try to spite Westminster and the rUK is incredibly narrow sighted. Salmond has simply stirred so much hostility towards Westminster with his constant talk of bullying and intimidation, that it has started to rub off on people. I would hope sincerely that the typical Scot has more brains than to believe that sort of drivel and let Salmonds anti-Westminster agenda decide their vote.

Above all, it is still Westminster who have granted this referendum and agreed to honour it. It is Westminster that Salmond and Scotland will have to negotiate with to actually agree on the terms of independance - and yet here you are complaining about them.

Salmond has done well to divert peoples attention from the actual issue of what an independant Scotland will look like, and instead simply draw upon Scotlands dislike for Wesminster and the Tories - I hope that people can see past this and ask themselves the same questions I have asked above. If the answer to any of them is "I dont know" then you should really be thinking twice about a YES vote.


Great post!
 
And yet even at this stage, none of the above parties have any concrete answers to the key economic questions. And it IS about economics - or it should be for the voters.

The nationalistic argument is moot because Scotland already has a distinct cultural identity which is not under threat and never has been. I lived in Glasgow for a year and I visit Scotland about twice a year to see the in-laws, and I am very much aware that I am in Scotland rather than England. The nationalistic arguments can very easily be interpreted as simply anti-English, since again you already do have a cultural identity and it is not something which has been oppressed or threatened in the slightest.

The main argument I see at the moment......

This is a very well reasoned post, I agree with it entirely. It is also exactly the kind of thing that the Yes voters are burying their heads in the sand about.

A yes voting friend of mine has become a real shouty tub thumper on the subject and all rational thought and debate has left him - I questioned him on a few things including how he would feel if the vote was No and it turns out he is in the minority; I pointed out that the polls were running roughly 50/50 and if anything leaning to the No vote. Instead of answering the question, he got angry, told me I knew nothing and the real figure was closer to 70/30 in favour of Yes! I asked where this figure came from and again he just wouldn't answer, I got some verbal diarrhea about media bullying.

I know this is an extreme case of eye's shut and not listening, but my point is I think the Yes vote that is now in place is locked in (it looks to be around 48-49%%) and it's all going to come down to the undecided. My hope is that if the undecided have not been swayed by the vague arguments of Salmond by now then they are not going to be swayed in the next few days. If they were the kind of people to be swept along by the general chest beating, them-against-us campaign that we've seen then hopefully they won't be convinced by any other street marches and so on that are happening now. Surely they're undecided because they've not had any of the answers they're looking for and one thing for certain is that Salmond is not going to suddenly give them now.
 
And yet even at this stage, none of the above parties have any concrete answers to the key economic questions. And it IS about economics - or it should be for the voters.

The nationalistic argument is moot because Scotland already has a distinct cultural identity which is not under threat and never has been. I lived in Glasgow for a year and I visit Scotland about twice a year to see the in-laws, and I am very much aware that I am in Scotland rather than England. The nationalistic arguments can very easily be interpreted as simply anti-English, since again you already do have a cultural identity and it is not something which has been oppressed or threatened in the slightest.

The main argument I see at the moment is "We want a government that we voted for" - well you have one, the SNP, they have been in the headlines quite a lot recently so I am surprised anyone missed it.
Seriously though, the only purpose of a government is to enact policy and legislature - which for the most part, is simply a means of controlling the economy in some way shape or form, so again this is what it boils down to - that you want your own government so they can control Scotlands economy "better".

It always comes down to economy and this is where there has been a massive lack of answers and information from YES. You can ignore this post and all the rest of them as much as you want, but putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and shouting "IM NOT LISTENING" wont work in reality. Everything that Salmond has come out with comes back to exaggerated revenue figures, best-case scenarios and unrealistic assumptions. It borders on the completely deluded - you only need to listen to the man to realise that he is completely out of ideas and just repeats the same tired anti-Westminster rhetoric at every possible opportunity, whilst dodging the serious questions.

Its all well and good to say that its the disillusioned labour supporters and radicals who are at the core of the movement, but have any of THEM produced a white paper and a serious, concrete set of numbers for how an independant Scotland is to be run? Didnt think so.
There is no blueprint, there is no plan - this is the truth of the matter for the YES campaign. It is also for this reason (and not just Westminster propaganda and bullying) that numerous companies are warning that they will relocate south in the event of independance. As a UK citizen this is great news - more jobs created and a more powerful economy. If I were Scottish however I would be more concerned, instead of just buying into Salmonds "scaremongering" rubbish that he spouts so freely.

To vote YES, frankly at the moment says that you dont really know much about economics or global politics. I wont claim to be an expert in either field, but the writing is plain and clear on the wall. Idle threats like refusing to take on national debt? Is that really how independant Scotland wants to become known? As a bad debtor? At a time where you will likely be seeking credit and loans on the international markets?
Taking on sterlingisation without the backing of the Bank of England? Really? How to you plan to build up the vast reserves of capital to bail out the next company that goes bust (that hasnt relocated)? How do you plan to run your economy smoothly with no control over monetary or fiscal policy? With interest rates set from Westminster, only now without them having any vested interest in how it affects north of the border.

How do you think it will affect trade if you arent given instant EU access? The simply transactional costs of trading with the rest of the EU will be enormous (the majority of which will likely be with the UK). The UK wont care - we will still be trading with the rest of the EU countries.

Lets look a bit further ahead, what will you do when the oil runs out? You can believe Salmonds figures that there is what 1.5Tn barrels left in the North Sea, or you can believe some of the more conservative estimates which predict that it will be drying up within anything from 2-6 years. Salmonds public spending figures are already ridiculously stretched, and those are based on his assumed best-case figures for Oil. If it turns out that Salmond is wrong (and is this really that unlikely?) then you will find things may take a turn for the worse sooner rather than later. Whats the plan B, wind power? Its a noble idea but far from reality at the moment, and most of the current spending on wind power in Scotland is subsidised from UK taxpayers, so unless you are suggesting that Scotland will somehow find the extra money to plug that gap and continue developments in that field, its pretty far fetched at the moment.


These are just the obvious questions off the top of my head, but if I were Scottish they would be very real and plain concerns, easily enough to determine my vote. To wilfully choose to ignore all of these concerns, is to show quite astonishing levels of ignorance, self-importance and frankly a brazen disregard for the future of Scotland.

Similarly, to vote YES simply to try to spite Westminster and the rUK is incredibly narrow sighted. Salmond has simply stirred so much hostility towards Westminster with his constant talk of bullying and intimidation, that it has started to rub off on people. I would hope sincerely that the typical Scot has more brains than to believe that sort of drivel and let Salmonds anti-Westminster agenda decide their vote.

Above all, it is still Westminster who have granted this referendum and agreed to honour it. It is Westminster that Salmond and Scotland will have to negotiate with to actually agree on the terms of independance - and yet here you are complaining about them.

Salmond has done well to divert peoples attention from the actual issue of what an independant Scotland will look like, and instead simply draw upon Scotlands dislike for Wesminster and the Tories - I hope that people can see past this and ask themselves the same questions I have asked above. If the answer to any of them is "I dont know" then you should really be thinking twice about a YES vote.
Fantastic post, no doubt it will be ignored though.
 
You can right off the whole thing to wilful ignorance of the economic consequences if you want, but some people are willing to endure economic hardship to bring about political change in the long term that is impossible otherwise.

And calling people deluded, stupid or not understanding global politics and economics for having different priorities to you just highlights how one eyed some people are on this. Disagree all you like but there are people who have studied politics and economics all their lives and support this movement, but if its easier to just say we're all simpletons and that will be the end of it then so be it.

Fantastic post, no doubt it will be ignored though.

Everything in it has been said a million times over in a more amicable and well written way
 
You can right off the whole thing to wilful ignorance of the economic consequences if you want, but some people are willing to endure economic hardship to bring about political change in the long term that is impossible otherwise.

And calling people deluded, stupid or not understanding global politics and economics for having different priorities to you just highlights how one eyed some people are on this. Disagree all you like but there are people who have studied politics and economics all their lives and support this movement, but if its easier to just say we're all simpletons and that will be the end of it then so be it.



Everything in it has been said a million times over in a more amicable and well written way

I think you are severely, severely underestimating the impact of the economic consequences. You seem to be brushing them off as some kind of 'not a very big deal' when the reality is so different.
 
Except it doesn't, in any way at all.
Pray tell what exactly you think would happen to Northern Ireland? Short of them joining Scotland, I'm failing to see what the alternative is. A three country UK is not remotely sustainable. It would be a matter of time before it became England and Wales.
 
Pray tell what exactly you think would happen to Northern Ireland? Short of them joining Scotland, I'm failing to see what the alternative is. A three country UK is not remotely sustainable. It would be a matter of time before it became England and Wales.
I think it's a long, long way off. If Scotland get independence and things go relatively well, it might make some voices speak up, but I don't think the appetite is there right now even among nationalists. The Republic have enough on their plate as it is currently. Plus, I don't think people are ready for all the hassle, hard to imagine the process going anywhere near as smoothly as it has in Scotland.
 
You can right off the whole thing to wilful ignorance of the economic consequences if you want, but some people are willing to endure economic hardship to bring about political change in the long term that is impossible otherwise.

And calling people deluded, stupid or not understanding global politics and economics for having different priorities to you just highlights how one eyed some people are on this. Disagree all you like but there are people who have studied politics and economics all their lives and support this movement, but if its easier to just say we're all simpletons and that will be the end of it then so be it.



Everything in it has been said a million times over in a more amicable and well written way
They've been said a million times because nobody in the Yes camp can give an answer other than its bully boy tactics and scaremongering.

People may be willing to go through economic hardship for a Yes vote, I can agree with that, however when the leader of the 'Yes' camp is refusing to, or failing to answer questions that those who aren't educated in politics don’t understand then it isn’t fair to expect them to agree to an uncertain future.
Adding to that, it’s one thing saying you are willing to endure hardship, however, it will be a different story when people can’t afford to keep a roof over their head or food on the table.

Joining the EU, taking their share of the debt, keeping the £, Oil resources, all these questions plus more are being brushed under the table by Salmond.

Salmond is making it sound like a walk in the park, he should be able to answer every question thrown at him, so far, he’s failed miserably.
 
People may be willing to go through economic hardship for a Yes vote, I can agree with that, however when the leader of the 'Yes' camp is refusing to, or failing to answer questions that those who aren't educated in politics don’t understand then it isn’t fair to expect them to agree to an uncertain future.
Adding to that, it’s one thing saying you are willing to endure hardship, however, it will be a different story when people can’t afford to keep a roof over their head or food on the table.

Joining the EU, taking their share of the debt, keeping the £, Oil resources, all these questions plus more are being brushed under the table by Salmond.

Salmond is making it sound like a walk in the park, he should be able to answer every question thrown at him, so far, he’s failed miserably.

You're right that it is worrying when people believe what the SNP have always been selling, a vision of immediate economic success - especially if its a 50.1% vote. I dread to think about how the country would react, especially if Salmond doesn't step down soon after.

At the same time though the idea that No camp have been touting that Scotland would be 'poorer than Pakistan', let alone Ireland, is also ridiculous. We have a bigger economy than Ireland, a significant oil revenue in the short term and will hopefully not be sucked into a Eurozone crisis.

Anyhow I'm out, its been fun but seeing half my country being called stupid over and over gets a bit grating
 
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Pray tell what exactly you think would happen to Northern Ireland? Short of them joining Scotland, I'm failing to see what the alternative is. A three country UK is not remotely sustainable. It would be a matter of time before it became England and Wales.
What?
We will remain part of the UK. Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, a poll on Northern Ireland's status can be called if there is evidence indicating support for a constitutional change. At the moment that scenario isnt even close, there are no plans in place to even consider a vote.
In fact a recent poll suggested that the gap for a United Ireland was wider than ever with more and more nationalists wanting to stay within the UK.
 
You're right that it is worrying when people believe what the SNP have always been selling, a vision of immediate economic success - especially if its a 50.1% vote. I dread to think about how the country would react, especially if Salmond doesn't step down soon after.

At the same time though the idea that No camp have been touting that Scotland would be 'poorer than Pakistan', let alone Ireland, like the no camp are suggesting, is also ridiculous. We have a bigger economy than Ireland, a significant oil revenue in the short term and will hopefully not be sucked into a Eurozone crisis.

Anyhow I'm out, its been fun but seeing half my country being called stupid over and over gets a bit grating

I've not called anyone stupid - and if I have repeated myself or my writing has become a bit more blunt then it is because I/we have yet to recieve an answer. Your view of "there are some politicians and economists who support independence" still isn't actually giving any answers.
Now I'm not expecting someone on a Manchester United forum on the internet to be an expert on this - but the reason you and others on here can't give answers is because YOU haven't been given these answers by Salmond, the YES campaign or by these economists and politicians that you are placing your trust in.

Regardless of who is supporting YES, NONE of them have yet come up with a plan, and that in itself is extremely telling.