Come on now, Walrus. Now you're backing your point up with the comments section of a newspaper. You might as well go to the Youtube comment section, at that point. The sort of people who comment there are not the sort of people who are generally very reflected, regardless of where they stand on an issue.
Alex Salmond and Independence
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Come on now, Walrus. Now you're backing your point up with the comments section of a newspaper. You might as well go to the Youtube comment section, at that point. The sort of people who comment there are not the sort of people who are generally very reflected, regardless of where they stand on an issue.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/scottish-independence-view-belfast Hadn't seen this before. A lot being said of what the English think of Scotland leaving us, interesting to see what other British citizens think of breaking the country apart.
Didn't realise until this thread that people outside of Scotland genuinely seem to have gotten the impression we are savages at this point. Resembles nothing like the reality on he ground but you can't be surprised when all bar one news outlet in the whole UK is against the Yes campaign. Death threats for Yes movement leaders Salmond and Sillars, an egg for Jim Murphy but one of these chaps had got a load more coverage.
It is actually the most upsetting thing to happen during this whole campaign. Regardless of the result, we've now all become greedy anti-English hatemongers who are prone to fits of rage.
I really don't think that people appreciate how biased the media have been in all of this also. Even this morning the papers are all saying that RBS are leaving Scotland. The Guardian have the headline "RBS will quit Scotland if it votes Yes", the Beeb something similar. Every single media outlet is associating the number of staff they have to the news as well, suggesting that jobs will be lost. The reality is that RBS is moving their registered HQ to London, and no jobs are at risk at all. But you wouldn't know that purely looking at the sensationalist headlines.
John Lewis have now said that prices could go up in their stores if the Yes vote wins.
Boycott!
A few other retailers now backing what John Lewis have said.
True enough, I know it's likely not very representative, just that with such an emotive subject as independence there are bound to be a lot of strong feelings one way or another.
An interesting article from a No voter: http://www.scottishreview.net/CarolCraig172.shtml?122324
Are any yes voters worried by all the, for want of a better word 'scaremongering' that's coming from the no camp.
There was just a woman on the beeb arguing for a 'yes' vote but she didn't really counter any of the points made to her or argue any alternative views; she just dissed everything as 'scaremongering' etc, like she didn't really have anything to properly add.
Yeah I am, the timing is all wrong from an economic perspective but I see this as the only opportunity in my lifetime - maybe longer - to leave a Westminster with no sign of reforming the electoral system, the major elitism problem or its role as junior partner in a 'special relationship' that dictates an immoral foreign policy and lets our intelligence services monitor our innocent civilians. If I believed it were possible to bring about radical change in the UK I'd be voting no but I have seen no evidence in my lifetime. What's happening in Scotland would be a long and painful process but there is a light at the end of the tunnel that dimmed long ago for UK politics.
Absolutely. I also think people tend to revert to their "base" feelings about something when discussing it, if it's an emotional subject to them.
Again you paint a rather biased picture of the UK. Its not perfect and as I have said before in this thread, I loathe most of modern politics as it usually degenerates to pathetic point scoring and negativity with little actual policy.
However with that said, the UK has been (and still is) considered a major player in global politics, we have a strong economy and have gone through the last 10 years of recession largely unscathed, when compared to the likes of Spain. You could do a lot worse than being in the UK - I find it surprising that so many Scots are so vocal about the "foreign wars" etc aspect as a major line of reasoning behind their vote, as from an individual perspective this isnt really something which I would regard as one of the key factors in the debate. It is however, an argument that Salmond and the SNP have been pushing a lot, so I can see why so many have adopted it.
From an individual standpoint however, the key issues of what will actually affect me (substitute yourself into this) should be matters of economy and public spending. The independant outlook for "economy" (to look at it broadly) is pretty negative. Salmond has promised higher public spending but to me it is EXTREMELY unclear how he will be able to afford to deliver on this. Simply cutting down on the defence budget I dont think will be enough, and frankly will leave Scotland in a very vulnerable place over the next decade or two where by everyones admission, there is a high chance of some sort of conflict in the aftermath of the referendum. It would be a poor time to be cutting down on defence and intelligence spending.
You clearly have different priorities and political views to me judging from your post (foreign policy in particular) and that's absolutely fine. I just see it as infinitely more important to live in what I consider a democratic nation than be more comfortable economically while seeing no hope of the political change I want to see in the UK.
Really?
You dont consider the UK to be a democratic nation? Come on now. Again, you could have done a lot worse than being part of the UK - I dont recall many Scots complaining over the last 20 years when Labour were elected. Its only now that the Tories got in that all this has arisen - that is practically the opposite of democratic behaviour - "We didnt get the government we want so we want independence!".
We have had all that discussion before in this thread, but please dont accuse the UK of not being democratic because it simply isnt true.
When I say "conflict" I am not talking about civil war or mass uprisings, but with the vote pretty much 50/50, whichever way it ends up, half of Scotland is going to be disappointed. Combine that with the potential short term economic issues which will arise from Scotland becoming independant and yes, I would expect to see a lot of Scots unhappy (this is in the event of a YES vote obviously) about the situation.
There's a massive leap between that and widespread violent protests. I don't think they'd have any need for a huge defence budget, even if the gloomiest No campaigner's vision of an independent Scotland becomes a reality.
Maybe. I think read in the original white paper that Salmond plans only to have three batallions as Scotlands standing army. Now I am not entirely clued up on such things but that just seems like a tiny, tiny amount for a country of Scotlands size. Again I am not suggesting widespread revolts and civil war, but I can imagine the 50% of people who voted NO would have a few choice words to say in the aftermath of independence, and that it would seem a poor time for Salmond/whoever to be skimping on intelligence spending, for example.
On a semi related point, wasnt it also true that Salmond wants to simply continue to use rUK's intelligence network? Again it seems a bit like wanting to have your cake and eat it - any such deals I would expect to have a true and fair cost to them.
Then you can't have been following Scottish politics that closely. Disillusionment with New Labour began earlier here, the defining moment for many on the left who will vote Yes and today identify with Green, SSP or SNP instead of Labour was the Iraq war protest that took place on the day of the Scottish Labour Party conference. They kept quiet and refused to acknowledge the huge protest made up largely of Labour supporters all on the request of Tony Blair and their Westminster counterparts. Look at the drastic fall in Labour support in 2007 and then 2011 Scottish parliamentary elections.
Its a democracy in the way America is a democracy. The Lib Dems help to make it look pluralist but we all know the deal.
I wont claim to have been an avid following of Scottish politics back then - my main interest in Scotland came ~5 years ago when I met my missus, who is Scottish.
Regardless - in my earlier post that you quoted, I said "The UK is a democracy". UK, not Scotland - I am in no way trying to belittle Scotland when I say this, but Scotlands population is less than that of London, and that is how a democracy works.
Obviously that is one of the reasons behind the independence campaign, but the very fact that you are getting an independence referendum from Cameron/rUK shows that the UK is democratic.
I would argue that it is BECAUSE the UK is democratic (meaning Scotland has a weaker voice due to having a low population) that you are seeking independence (amongst other things). You already have a lot of devolved powers and a devolved Scottish parliament and have been promised more. To expect to have an equal input at Westminster compared with England, which has a population of nearly 10x Scotlands, would be extremely UNdemocratic.
A democracy doesnt mean always getting your own way, I think the word you are looking for is an autocracy.
Alex Salmond is a very unlikeable fella.
The Scottish electorate was abandoned even by the party it elected with a huge majority. I do not get how you see my wish to live in a smaller more directly democratic political system which has already in practice led to coalitions of some kind after 3 out of the 4 elections - while offering a second vote to ensure more promotional representation and not having such a huge institutional bias toward those who happen to be privately educated and male - as somehow an autocratic one. In fact the Tories will probably get a boost both sides of the border from all of this - the Scottish Tory image has been tainted for so long.
Salmond is speaking to Foreign journos at a press conference right now, looking exhausted and unconvincing in saying the no campaign is in 'terminal decline'. I do think the momentum is swaying back toward them.
The only thing I've found interesting this week is the reporting of the opinion polls.
Beginning of the week the yes campaign had a 4 point lead or something, it was the death knell of the union, Salmond was declaring to all and sundry that the big three were now desperate and running scared.
Today the polls have the no campaign have a 6 point lead, a ten point swing, and it gets two seconds of talking head time on day break.
Beginning of the week the yes campaign had a 4 point lead or something, it was the death knell of the union, Salmond was declaring to all and sundry that the big three were now desperate and running scared.
Today the polls have the no campaign have a 6 point lead, a ten point swing, and it gets two seconds of talking head time on day break.
Listening to Salmond in this PC, he dodges questions like a pro.
Yep, if I was Scottish that would make me very nervous in voting yes.
Different poll, different methodology, presumably. I haven't had a chance to take a look at the latest poll to see what it does.
Still, taking the lead is a psychological thing that will resonate in peoples' minds. People will react to such a thing - we've already seen banks reacting. The very fact that the led was retaken is more newsworthy than the previous No lead.
What?"what if you don't get the common currency; what would happen then?"
"well we want a common sense agreement on a common currency"
"yes, but what if you don't get it?"
"well we want a common sense agreement on a common currency"
and repeat.
Seems about right.
Fecking hell. I almost wish I was seeing this.
Hear a few Scots say their voting Yes but as soon as the vote is over so will their support for Salmond.
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
He's basically a caricature of the modern politician.
Ignore every difficult question, and turn everything into a dig at your opponent, the pettier the better.
Ignore every difficult question, and turn everything into a dig at your opponent, the pettier the better.
that's a brilliant questionAaaaaaand completely dodged.
You could see the panic in his eyes
Your comments were that the UK is not democratic. You were basing this on the fact that Scotland does not get who they vote for.
You dont like this, and you are therefore having a referendum on independence, this is all fine and valid, but it does not make the UK undemocratic - quite the opposite, that is all.
I think I'd rather vote for George Bush than this guy.