Wut.
Alexander Buttner | 2013/14 Performances
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Wut.
I shit you not! I'm not arguing that Fabio crosses the ball as well as Baines, but his crosses with his left foot is as good as Evra's, imo, who is of course left footed.
Irwin played behind Giggs though, invariably we have right footed wingers on the left, such as Nani, Young or Welbeck, so I can totally understand why a left footed overlapping full back providing width would be preferred over a right footed one. The problem is Buttner isn't close to being good enough, our scouts rated him as the fourth best left back in Holland, he was a total punt who was both cheap and available, which allowed Fabio to go on loan, and had we signed Baines or Coentrao he would have left this summer. It appears that Moyes wants a left footed fullback, which is why I don't see a future for Fabio there.
Doesn't really matter what I think... but look at it from Moyes' perspective. He has a large squad of players, and he probably wants to see them all get game time early on so he can make his own judgements - from that perspective, it makes sense that he gives Buttner a run-out in the league cup - and it with the wonders of hind-sight, it was a perfectly good decision.
I'm also nowhere near as high on Fabio as other people are... I think a lot of people think he can be as good as his brother, but I honestly don't see it. He was quite poor for QPR last season (though that's probably very understandable when looking at that team) and whilst he was good for us in 10/11, it was nowhere near the level that Rafael is currently at.
He wasn't - though it also helps that we didn't really have a bad performer yesterday. (If I had to pick one, it was probably Kagawa, who was underwhelming in the first half, but was having a very good second half before being brought off)
Whatever else may be the case, it wasn't senseless of SAF to bring him in. Fabio was going on loan and we had no proper back-up for Evra bar Evans, who isn't really a fullback and who has turned into something close to a starter at CB anyway.
Sometimes I don't think people quite get the concept of squad players. A player isn't useless just because it's evident that he will never become a starter. You can't have more than 11 of those at any given time, it's pretty basic mathematics. What one may question is whether Fabio should now be the number one backup option for Evra - and I would like him to be just that myself. Then Büttner becomes a third choice LB and arguably surplus to requirements. But Moyes may not see Fabio as a LB. If he doesn't we will still need a backup option for Evra until we - and that looks inevitable - buy someone for the position.
The idea that the lad is completely out of his depth doesn't hold water in my opinion. He is a bit of an oddball as a player, looks very rough at times, and - again - he clearly won't make it as a regular for a team as good as United. But he is not useless and he did well enough last night.
Sometimes I don't think people quite get the concept of squad players. A player isn't useless just because it's evident that he will never become a starter. You can't have more than 11 of those at any given time, it's pretty basic mathematics. What one may question is whether Fabio should now be the number one backup option for Evra - and I would like him to be just that myself. Then Büttner becomes a third choice LB and arguably surplus to requirements. But Moyes may not see Fabio as a LB. If he doesn't we will still need a backup option for Evra until we - and that looks inevitable - buy someone for the position.
The idea that the lad is completely out of his depth doesn't hold water in my opinion. He is a bit of an oddball as a player, looks very rough at times, and - again - he clearly won't make it as a regular for a team as good as United. But he is not useless and he did well enough last night.
Good arguments there, and you are probably right. Fabio behind Januzaj could be very interesting though. I also think that Fabio is so two footed that it's not much of an issue though.
Giggs and Jones played well in midfield yesterday. Would you like to continue seeing them there though?
Fabio was regarded as the bigger talent. I see no reason why he can't rise to the same heights as Rafael; he's just as quick, arguably better technically and just as solid defensively.
As you said, last season is difficult to judge by as Fabio got no help what so ever by his wingers defending. He still contributed quite well in attack and did well in defence for the most part. I can see him becoming just as good as Rafael, and I have no problems with having him at left back even though he is right footed, as I believe him to be very two footed. I think he would have done much better than Büttner last night, so not sure that in hindsight it was better playing the Dutchman.
I would rate Büttner lowest of our players last night - Kagawa made some silly, silly mistakes, but we played much better as a team with him.
That is not arguable at all... unless you see Fabio in training every day, there is absolutely no way you could possibly believe this to be true. Rafael is quite easily the better technically of the two... hell, he's one of the best technically in our whole team. I can't even see how that's up for debate to be honest.
Also, not sure how you can say he contributed quite well for QPR last season - they were utterly dire at the back, and fairly uninspiring going forward... I can't even remember one stand-out thing that Fabio did for them last year. He was a nothing player in a nothing team - but like I said, it's probably not his fault.
Finally, I would say your overrating of Fabio and seemingly massive negativity towards Buttner is probably effecting how you judgement of last nights performance.
I can understand why he was signed, but he is useless as a squad player, he made five appearances for us last season (he was hauled off at HT in one) so he doesn't offer useful cover for Evra because in an ideal world the cover would be playing 15+ games to give Patrice a rest, but we can't do that because playing Buttner is such a monumental risk. It's why the people slating Moyes for going after Baines aren't seeing the bigger picture, any injury to Evra and we're in a fair bit of trouble.
Last night he did ok, he was up against a central midfielder playing as a wingback, but he wasn't awful. However, he still did a piece of defending that wouldn't look out of place in Sunday League when he lost Henderson, decided against tracking him and instead turned and attempted to go for a header he was never going to get, meaning Henderson had an hour to run toward our box whilst Buttner was left miles behind. He was possibly at fault for the Henderson sitter too. I understand why he was signed, I even understand why he was played yesterday, but he's not good enough for us and he never will be. Is he good enough for a lower Premier League side? Maybe.
Yes. They have to start every match. Until the world ends.
Look, how on earth did you manage to extract that from what I posted? I said the lad isn't useless. Not that he should be a nailed-on starter from now on.
I didn't say you said he should be a nailed on starter. But I can bet that nobody wants to see them start in a united midfield together again, the same way I wouldn't want to see Buttner in a united shirt again.
Everything is up for debate
A lot of people, including me, argued that Fabio was arguably the better of the two in terms of technical abilities a couple of seasons ago. As I said, he was thought to be the bigger talent of the two, so it's not as if it's something way out there like saying Smalling distributes the ball better than Evans.
Admittedly, I didn't watch many games, but when I did he certainly wasn't the worst of the bunch, in fact he showed that he was clearly a class above. He links up incredibly well with his winger, but that means feck all when his winger can offer nothing in return.
That's a bit condescending, isn't it?
Büttner is actually just the kind of player I like; he's fast, technically gifted, brave and gives 100% all the time. However, I think he lacks finesse and awareness. He's a decent squad player, but I don't see him as first XI potential like I do with Fabio. Fabio is not at Rafael's level at this time, but against Barcelona he showed what he can become. He has struggled a lot with injuries, but if he can stay injury free, then I think he can prove to become just as good. That's speculation of course.
No question about it. That is a matter of priorities, though - and it would seem Moyes is going to prioritize differently from SAF in some areas. I don't think SAF bought Büttner as someone who could play regularly, giving Evra plenty of rest - but that he turned out to be so shoddy that the plan failed. That's not how it looks to me: He took a punt on Büttner, knowing that Evra would start more games than anyone anyway. That was SAF's way - we would've been royally fecked had Carrick gotten himself injured during the last couple of years too. Moyes clearly is about to play it safer in that regard.
I really seem to like him. Whole hearted kind of commitment. Offensively he's good enough but unfortunately defensively, at this level, he's not good enough and I haven't seen any sort of improvement to think he's going to develop into a top class LB.
Could still forge out a decent career mid table in the EPL or even top 4 in the Eredivisie.
Could still forge out a decent career mid table in the EPL or even top 4 in the Eredivisie.
Fair enough, that's your opinion. My view is that you can't expect every man in a 25 man squad to challenge for a place in the starting XI. Some of these players will be designated for a marginal role, that's just the way it is. And, just to make that clear, Büttner isn't in Jones' or Giggs' category: He is a LB - that's where he'll play, or he won't play at all. A pure back-up to a player who has so far featured for us with extreme regularity.
In all honesty, if not for our many alternatives in attacking midfielders, he could probably do a decent shift as a left winger. He has pace, trickery and a good left foot.
Aye, he probably could - but we do have too many other alternatives for that to plausibly happen.
He didn't sign him to only play five games, it isn't ideal Evra playing 60 games a season, Fergie even said that when he signed Buttner and he tried to sign Baines last year too. If Buttner offered a decent alternative to Evra he would have played more last season, but his defending is a huge liability. If Evra had been injured for any amount of time last season I'm certain Evans would have filled in at left back ahead of Buttner, so I don't see how it can be argued that he's a useful squad member when he can't be relied upon to perform his main role which is provide adequate cover for Evra. He was a cheap punt, it didn't come off, which is no surprise really when our Dutch scout says he didn't recommend him and the entire Dutch press are in a state of shock at him joining us. Yeah, no cover for Carrick either, Fergie certainly liked taking risks
His tricks get a bit annoying, it's like he thinks he's a forward every time he gets the ball.
Everything is up for debate
A lot of people, including me, argued that Fabio was arguably the better of the two in terms of technical abilities a couple of seasons ago. As I said, he was thought to be the bigger talent of the two, so it's not as if it's something way out there like saying Smalling distributes the ball better than Evans.
Exactly... and a few seasons ago is qutie some time in football. Ultimately, I don't think anyone can honestly say that Fabio has better technical quality than Rafael... he has shown nothing in the past 2 years to back this up.
And as for having the greater talent, people say a load of things in football... doesn't necceserily mean all of them are true.
Not really... peoples opinions of players will often have an effect on how they judge their performance... especially if theres someone they'd rather see playing instead. It's not like I said "You don't know what you're talking about" or something along those lines.
The next Gareth Bale?
He didn't sign him to only play five games, it isn't ideal Evra playing 60 games a season, Fergie even said that when he signed Buttner and he tried to sign Baines last year too. If Buttner offered a decent alternative to Evra he would have played more last season, but his defending is a huge liability. If Evra had been injured for any amount of time last season I'm certain Evans would have filled in at left back ahead of Buttner, so I don't see how it can be argued that he's a useful squad member when he can't be relied upon to perform his main role which is provide adequate cover for Evra. He was a cheap punt, it didn't come off, which is no surprise really when our Dutch scout says he didn't recommend him and the entire Dutch press are in a state of shock at him joining us. Yeah, no cover for Carrick either, Fergie certainly liked taking risks
No, I suppose not - but that's where the punt comes in. What I'm saying - I think - is that Fergie didn't really make an effort to sign a reliable LB option who would make it possible to give Evra rest on a regular basis. If that had been his priority Büttner looks a very odd choice.
Many have a tendency to regard young players who are brought in, or brought up from the youth ranks for that matter, in a particular light: They need to show promise as future starters - or they aren't worth a damn. It leads to comments like "X is shite" or "Y is useless, a Championship player", and so forth.
The reality is that you need all sorts of players - in some cases even those who will only feature in five games. It's when such players are clearly redundant you can start demanding they be offloaded. That, at least, is my opinion.
I remember that. I was shouting at my screen. It lasted for a good few minutes too.
He really needs to improve drastically on his defensive game, I got a fright everytime they attacked from his side. Far too aggressive, commits way too easily and goes for the slide too often. He looks much better going forward though.
Yep, I havent seen the so called brilliance at crossing yet but the raw materials are definitely there, looks comfortable on the ball, has some tricks up his sleeve and has a good left peg. The ingredients are there but I really cant see how he'l get enough games till he massively improves on his defensive side. Fabio must be doing it wrong in training because its surprising to see him 3rd in the pecking order.
He's the one player in the squad who, several times per match, I cant help saying out loud "What the hell are you doing?!?"
Yeah, his crossing is poor, his shooting is erratic, his decision making is worse. The one thing I'll give him credit for is that he can beat a man on the dribble. The problem is though, he's a LB yet he loves to hold up the ball and slow down play which pisses me off.
He hits a very good cross. Dunno how anyone can have watched him play for us and not notice that.
The attacking side of his game is really good.
No he doesn't.
I rate him, just not sure where to put him, slightly more disciplines last night, but positionally he wasn't great... Just got caught with his man behind him too often, I think as he settles/composes this will change, someone like Smalling and Evans were very composed from a young age, but even the 'appreciated' Rafael, when he first started, his positioning was AWOL, quite often he'd be caught unaware that the attacker had got past him due to his positioning... Look how he turned out..
Very good is perhaps an overstatement, but in reference to our current squad I'd say he is one of our better crossers, saying that, I wouldn't describe any of our players crossing abilities (As in consistently producing) as great..
I'm using the reverse Mcfeckwit hypothesis on this and considering my point proved.
I like him. certainly much better going forward. if he improves on his defensive duties, he will be a valuable player for us.
Well - I don't agree with you. In my opinion - all our players were decent/good without anyone really standing out in a good or bad way.
You don't have to, but who do you think was less good than him? I think Smalling, Rooney and Rafael stood out as the best players and Büttner the worst player - not that he was shit, but he was easily a peg or two below, imo, which is why I would rather see Fabio play ahead of Büttner. He's a decent squad player, no doubt, but not much more as I see it. I like his style of play and enthusiam though.
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