American Cops Doing What They Do Best

No biggie, just a couple of Chicago cops funning around, posing for pictures a few years ago in a photo found during a corruption investigation.

black-man-chicago-police-antlers.jpg
 
If I were one of the GOOD cops (you won't get an argument from me that there are bad ones) I would do exactly as they are doing in Baltimore. For those communities that don't want them, don't like them and insist on making their jobs more difficult - just stay out of those areas. What you will get is a situation like we have now in Baltimore...pretty much a lawless society in certain areas. Businesses in those areas are suffering tremendously, murders are way up and good, hard working residents are afraid to go outside. The idiot Mayor of Baltimore asked for it - and now she is suffering the consequences.
 
If I were one of the GOOD cops (you won't get an argument from me that there are bad ones) I would do exactly as they are doing in Baltimore. For those communities that don't want them, don't like them and insist on making their jobs more difficult - just stay out of those areas. What you will get is a situation like we have now in Baltimore...pretty much a lawless society in certain areas. Businesses in those areas are suffering tremendously, murders are way up and good, hard working residents are afraid to go outside. The idiot Mayor of Baltimore asked for it - and now she is suffering the consequences.

Yeah, there's a contradiction there. Your mission, your job as a cop is to serve the community. If you stay away from the problem, and refuse to fight crime, you are not a good cop. Full stop.
 
Yeah, there's a contradiction there. Your mission, your job as a cop is to serve the community. If you stay away from the problem, and refuse to fight crime, you are not a good cop. Full stop.

Understand what you are saying - but it works both ways. It is incumbent upon city leaders and the Mayor to provide an environment where the good cops can do their jobs successfully. Until that is provided, there is going to be a stand still. Surely, no one can think it is ok for an employer to openly put their employees in increasingly dangerous situations.
 
Understand what you are saying - but it works both ways. It is incumbent upon city leaders and the Mayor to provide an environment where the good cops can do their jobs successfully. Until that is provided, there is going to be a stand still. Surely, no one can think it is ok for an employer to openly put their employees in increasingly dangerous situations.

What are they doing that are placing cops in hazardous situations?
 
If I were one of the GOOD cops (you won't get an argument from me that there are bad ones) I would do exactly as they are doing in Baltimore. For those communities that don't want them, don't like them and insist on making their jobs more difficult - just stay out of those areas. What you will get is a situation like we have now in Baltimore...pretty much a lawless society in certain areas. Businesses in those areas are suffering tremendously, murders are way up and good, hard working residents are afraid to go outside. The idiot Mayor of Baltimore asked for it - and now she is suffering the consequences.

Would it be too much to ask of the good cops and police unions to start addressing abuses, outing the bad apples and official corruption, making real concessions to past abuse. That will be the beginning I believe of real change.
 

Did anything happen to the officer who did that? What a lunatic

Edit -
Meanwhile, after the ACLU released video of the arrest, the Barstow Police Department defended their officers' actions.

'The Barstow Police Department continues to be proactive in training its officers to assess and handle interactions with emotionally charged individuals while conducting an investigation, for the protection of everyone involved,' they said in a statement.

So he got away with it with support from the police department apparently. Typical
 
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Would it be too much to ask of the good cops and police unions to start addressing abuses, outing the bad apples and official corruption, making real concessions to past abuse. That will be the beginning I believe of real change.

While I am not naïve enough to believe that abuses do not go reported, many of them are and handled in an appropriate fashion. Reporting all abuses of power will certainly help but the real change will come when these idiots decide that a life of killing and stealing isn't worth it. I will never excuse the actions of some of these bad cops - but I will also not lose sight of the fact that there was a crime committed before many of these abuse instances ever occurred.

Just a hunch - but one reason I have never found myself in a position of being abused (physically or verbally) by a police officer...is because I have not committed any crimes.
 
While I am not naïve enough to believe that abuses do not go reported, many of them are and handled in an appropriate fashion. Reporting all abuses of power will certainly help but the real change will come when these idiots decide that a life of killing and stealing isn't worth it. I will never excuse the actions of some of these bad cops - but I will also not lose sight of the fact that there was a crime committed before many of these abuse instances ever occurred.

Just a hunch - but one reason I have never found myself in a position of being abused (physically or verbally) by a police officer...is because I have not committed any crimes.

Would you be one of those who happen to have a prototype of hundreds of years of being profiled and hassled and singled out because of your color?

Just a hunch
 
While I am not naïve enough to believe that abuses do not go reported, many of them are and handled in an appropriate fashion. Reporting all abuses of power will certainly help but the real change will come when these idiots decide that a life of killing and stealing isn't worth it. I will never excuse the actions of some of these bad cops - but I will also not lose sight of the fact that there was a crime committed before many of these abuse instances ever occurred.

Just a hunch - but one reason I have never found myself in a position of being abused (physically or verbally) by a police officer...is because I have not committed any crimes.
lol
 
Just a hunch - but one reason I have never found myself in a position of being abused (physically or verbally) by a police officer...is because I have not committed any crimes.

You a minority living in the projects?
 
You a minority living in the projects?

Minority - not living in the projects any more but raised in the projects. Watched my childhood friends go to jail, get killed and supply drugs to the entire neighborhood.

Decided this wasn't the life for me...didn't want to depend on the government. Got out, educated myself, and now live happily with my beautiful wife and kids away from the shit hole I grew up in.

Are there any issues with my plight? Am I not hood enough because I don't buy the shite spewed by my race on a daily basis? Am I an Uncle Tom for wanting to get out as fast as I could? You can have at me all you want - I've heard it all. At the end of the day, I made something of myself and appreciate the opportunity I have in this country.

I made my future - no one else did - on my own. Forgive me if I don't buy into the garbage that people are selling...and forgive me for respecting the law, the police and the job they do.
 
Minority - not living in the projects any more but raised in the projects. Watched my childhood friends go to jail, get killed and supply drugs to the entire neighborhood.

Decided this wasn't the life for me...didn't want to depend on the government. Got out, educated myself, and now live happily with my beautiful wife and kids away from the shit hole I grew up in.

Are there any issues with my plight? Am I not hood enough because I don't buy the shite spewed by my race on a daily basis? Am I an Uncle Tom for wanting to get out as fast as I could? You can have at me all you want - I've heard it all. At the end of the day, I made something of myself and appreciate the opportunity I have in this country.

I made my future - no one else did - on my own. Forgive me if I don't buy into the garbage that people are selling...and forgive me for respecting the law, the police and the job they do.



Very interesting report on my radio station today. The police dept trying to recruit from these areas but unable to do so because all the kids get criminal records with minor incidents so early on. They are discussing lifting some requirements. Seems your life can be ruined at the drop of a hat.
 
Data collected by the Washington Post newspaper suggests that the number of people shot by US police is twice as high as official figures claim.

The paper said that during the first five months of this year, 385 people - more than two a day - were killed.

The number of black people was disproportionately high among the victims, especially unarmed ones.

Official statistics rely on self-reported figures from law enforcement agencies.

Full story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32950383
 
Data collected by the Washington Post newspaper suggests that the number of people shot by US police is twice as high as official figures claim.

The paper said that during the first five months of this year, 385 people - more than two a day - were killed.

The number of black people was disproportionately high among the victims, especially unarmed ones.

Official statistics rely on self-reported figures from law enforcement agencies.

Full story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32950383

I'll never get over this. They purposely do not document how many people they kill. What more needs to be said?
 
Minority - not living in the projects any more but raised in the projects. Watched my childhood friends go to jail, get killed and supply drugs to the entire neighborhood.

Decided this wasn't the life for me...didn't want to depend on the government. Got out, educated myself, and now live happily with my beautiful wife and kids away from the shit hole I grew up in.

Are there any issues with my plight? Am I not hood enough because I don't buy the shite spewed by my race on a daily basis? Am I an Uncle Tom for wanting to get out as fast as I could? You can have at me all you want - I've heard it all. At the end of the day, I made something of myself and appreciate the opportunity I have in this country.

I made my future - no one else did - on my own. Forgive me if I don't buy into the garbage that people are selling...and forgive me for respecting the law, the police and the job they do.


I don´t know, I don´t put much into posters singing their personal praises in arguments, especially on the internet. We´re all anonymous posters here and there´s absolute no way of verifying what you´re saying. I´m sure you´d agree, internet personalities can be quite . . . amazing. I mean, you got to admit, it almost sounds too perfect:

- Born in the hood . . . check!
- Childhood friends in jail, dead, and were drug dealers to the whole neighborhood . . . check!
- Took the decision this was´t the life for me . . . check
- Didn´t want to depend on government . . . check!
- Got educated and got out . . . check!
- Happy family life with beautiful wife . . . check!
- Heard it all . . . check!
- Forgive me for respecting the law and police . . . check!

It almost sounds a bit too cliche, as if it were written by a Republican speech writer. Anyway, I´ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and give credit where credit is due. Well done! Sounds like you started out 2 steps behind and pulled yourself out.

But still, are we to ignore all the video evidence that is coming out? Ignore the policing for profit in minority areas? Ignore racial profiling? Ignore institutional racism that leads to segregated neighbourhoods, housing discrimination, and predatory lending? Ignore the lack of social investment when the government is spending trillions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and on faulty fighter jets? Ignore the constant right wing race card? Ignore the unaccounted for numbers of police shootings? Ignore the racist e-mails making their rounds in police forces in the US? Ignore the thousand of minorities who are taking the time and effort to march in the streets, organise and protest (they all have their convincing life stories as well). Ignore Republican measures to limit minority voting?

The police has always been given the benefit of the doubt, and is rarely . . . very rarely ever prosecuted. I think people here are just reacting to a lot of new video and written evidence coming out in a new day of online reality.
 
I don´t know, I don´t put much into posters singing their personal praises in arguments, especially on the internet. We´re all anonymous posters here and there´s absolute no way of verifying what you´re saying. I´m sure you´d agree, internet personalities can be quite . . . amazing. I mean, you got to admit, it almost sounds too perfect:

- Born in the hood . . . check!
- Childhood friends in jail, dead, and were drug dealers to the whole neighborhood . . . check!
- Took the decision this was´t the life for me . . . check
- Didn´t want to depend on government . . . check!
- Got educated and got out . . . check!
- Happy family life with beautiful wife . . . check!
- Heard it all . . . check!
- Forgive me for respecting the law and police . . . check!

It almost sounds a bit too cliche, as if it were written by a Republican speech writer. Anyway, I´ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and give credit where credit is due. Well done! Sounds like you started out 2 steps behind and pulled yourself out.

But still, are we to ignore all the video evidence that is coming out? Ignore the policing for profit in minority areas? Ignore racial profiling? Ignore institutional racism that leads to segregated neighbourhoods, housing discrimination, and predatory lending? Ignore the lack of social investment when the government is spending trillions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and on faulty fighter jets? Ignore the constant right wing race card? Ignore the unaccounted for numbers of police shootings? Ignore the racist e-mails making their rounds in police forces in the US? Ignore the thousand of minorities who are taking the time and effort to march in the streets, organise and protest (they all have their convincing life stories as well). Ignore Republican measures to limit minority voting?

The police has always been given the benefit of the doubt, and is rarely . . . very rarely ever prosecuted. I think people here are just reacting to a lot of new video and written evidence coming out in a new day of online reality.

I understand exactly where you are coming from and to be quite honest with you - I don't need your approval, praise, congratulations or well wishes. I have done nothing that hasn't been done by millions of people of all races, religions and creeds all across the world. That is not what this debate is about.

I am not making a stance which states we need to ignore anything - everything should be on the table for debate. I truly appreciate the fact that you and many others can come on here and debate topics like this with respect.

There are many facts to take into consideration and many of them are unintended consequences of well intended social programs. The topics that can fall into this debate are wide ranging and play some role (no matter how small) into what we see today - and we will never be able to touch them all.

There are all kinds of bad people on this earth and race shouldn't be part of the equation. I don't have time to touch on all your questions - which are all valid and well stated - but I do want to touch on the racial profiling, which to me tends to be the core complaint in the instances that have ignited this debate. I am a firm proponent of criminal profiling - and if race if part of that profile then so be it. If I want to investigate bank fraud and money laundering, I am not going to use resources to track many people living in the 5th Ward in Houston or the projects of Chicago - my efforts are going to be focused on the demographic that most often commit these crimes...the middle aged white executive. If I want intelligence on terrorists and future plots - I am not going to focus my efforts on foreign nationals associated with Sweden...I am going to focus on the demographic that most often is involved in terrorism. Is that racial profiling? Maybe, but it is certainly the correct type of profiling no matter how you define it.

The facts state that most violent crimes committed in the US are at the hands of blacks that live in the inner city. This is not disputed - it is fact. Therefore, why isn't it acceptable that police and detective efforts are focused in those areas? In my experience, it isn't the man that is keeping these people down, it is the crime, the drugs, the lack of education and the lack of family that is the real issue. There isn't a quick fix to this and there are many things we as a society need to work out - police misconduct being one of them.

Unlike you and I - the people that can help these issues are all too close minded and have alternate agendas and narratives which prevent them from ever sitting down and truly solving the problem - on both sides of the political isle.
 
I understand exactly where you are coming from and to be quite honest with you - I don't need your approval, praise, congratulations or well wishes. I have done nothing that hasn't been done by millions of people of all races, religions and creeds all across the world. That is not what this debate is about.

I am not making a stance which states we need to ignore anything - everything should be on the table for debate. I truly appreciate the fact that you and many others can come on here and debate topics like this with respect.

There are many facts to take into consideration and many of them are unintended consequences of well intended social programs. The topics that can fall into this debate are wide ranging and play some role (no matter how small) into what we see today - and we will never be able to touch them all.

There are all kinds of bad people on this earth and race shouldn't be part of the equation. I don't have time to touch on all your questions - which are all valid and well stated - but I do want to touch on the racial profiling, which to me tends to be the core complaint in the instances that have ignited this debate. I am a firm proponent of criminal profiling - and if race if part of that profile then so be it. If I want to investigate bank fraud and money laundering, I am not going to use resources to track many people living in the 5th Ward in Houston or the projects of Chicago - my efforts are going to be focused on the demographic that most often commit these crimes...the middle aged white executive. If I want intelligence on terrorists and future plots - I am not going to focus my efforts on foreign nationals associated with Sweden...I am going to focus on the demographic that most often is involved in terrorism. Is that racial profiling? Maybe, but it is certainly the correct type of profiling no matter how you define it.

The facts state that most violent crimes committed in the US are at the hands of blacks that live in the inner city. This is not disputed - it is fact. Therefore, why isn't it acceptable that police and detective efforts are focused in those areas? In my experience, it isn't the man that is keeping these people down, it is the crime, the drugs, the lack of education and the lack of family that is the real issue. There isn't a quick fix to this and there are many things we as a society need to work out - police misconduct being one of them.

Unlike you and I - the people that can help these issues are all too close minded and have alternate agendas and narratives which prevent them from ever sitting down and truly solving the problem - on both sides of the political isle.

Fair enough, your response. But why is it that the most violent crimes are committed by blacks in the inner city and why must we profile them???

If you listen to Republicans and southerners and I´m sure by many cops . . . they don´t want to come out and say it publicly, but it is racist in nature, i.e. there is something wrong (inferior) with african americans. On the other hand, there are a whole lot of folks, in growing numbers, who believe that historical institutional racism, segregation, housing discrimination, aggressive policing, an unjust judicial system, lack of real social and economic development and opportunity, poor education, etc etc etc are a massive, massive (not total) of this in the inner cities. Of course communities of any race under these social and economic conditions are not going to thrive and will inevitably lead to violence and crime. Is there any doubt?

Right Wing answers are to cut funding, more jails, stiffer penalties, cut social programs, aggressive policing and less restrictions on police behavior, cut benefits, ignore racism, make higher education more expensive and grants more difficult to get, drug wars, kill affirmative action, no minimum wage. Is this the way??? Really???

And no, liberals and progressives don´t want to just throw money at the situation and excuse minorities from any responsibility. How about a total empathetic change in attitudes and policies to level the playing field, and take a good, close look at our justice system and drug wars.

Let´s throw well regulated and accountable Iraq/Afghan/F-35 kind of effort and money into our inner cities.
 
They're poor. So they commit more crimes. Poverty is the problem. The majority of people who have something tangible don't want to risk jeopardizing that for a fast buck, revenge, thrills or whatever else motivates violent criminals.

So you can argue that the man is keeping these people down because the vast majority of wealth in the US is held by a very few individuals. Some will put in work and get out but unskilled jobs with decent pay are hard to come by these days so more people are left without anything and turn to crime because it pays better than 7-11.
 
feras-morad-with-family.jpg

20-year-old college student Feras Morad, who was shot and killed by Long Beach police on 27 March, standing with his family
US Police Killed Student Who Was Walking Away, Didn’t Tell Family

The Facebook page Justice For Feras Morad interviewed Morad’s friends Kamiran Dadah, Ryan Fobes, and two other eyewitnesses who chose to remain anonymous, and compiled their testimonies. Their account of the shooting can be read below.

ORIGINAL, 31 May:

Long Beach police killed unarmed 20-year-old college student Feras Morad on the night of 27 May. Witnesses say he was 20 feet from the officers and walking away when they shot him. No one informed Morad’s family.

NBC Los Angeles investigated the killing. The journalists interviewed the young man’s grieving father, who wept in despair.

<script type="text/javascript" charset="UTF-8" src="http://www.nbclosangeles.com/portab...es.com&sec=video&subsec=&width=600&height=360"></script>

Morad was at a party with friends from his school’s debate team when he took psychedelic mushrooms. He had a bad reaction to the drug and, while hallucinating, injured himself after he jumped through the window on the second floor of a building.

Worried for their friend, who cut himself on the glass and was bleeding, Morad’s friends called the police. The cops subsequently killed him.

Cops tased and beat Morad, yet claimed the slight young man still “threatened” them. Witnesses dispute this, saying Morad was in fact not a threat.

When a cop pulled out his gun, Morad’s friends shouted “Don’t shoot! He’s not armed!” The police shot and killed the young man anyway.

Friends who witnessed the killing say Morad, who did not have his glasses on at the time of the murder and could barely see, was in fact walking away from the police when they shot him. Witnesses also maintain that Morad was 20 feet away when the cops opened fire.

Adding insult to injury, after killing Morad, neither the police, nor the hospital to which he was taken, nor the LA county coroner’s office called to tell his family.

Morad’s 16-year-old sister says she only learned about the police killing of her brother through a friend’s Facebook status.

Not all networks did as good of a job reporting the story as NBC. In its coverage, in a masterful use of euphemism, ABC reported that “an officer-involved shooting ensued.” The “objective” corporate media is incapable of writing “the cop shot him.”

Witnesses’ Account of the Shooting
The Facebook page Justice For Feras Morad published the following account of the shooting, based on eyewitness testimony:

The following explanation of events comes from a collaboration of interviews from Kamiran Dadah, Ryan Fobes, and two other eyewitnesses that have chosen to remain anonymous for the time being:

At approximately 6:00 pm on May 27th, 2015, Feras Morad began to show symptoms of sensory degradation caused by ingesting psilocybin mushrooms. Witnesses report that by 7:00 pm, Morad was asking his friends where he was and what he was doing, but their answers did not seem to register with him. Approximately 25 minutes later, Morad broke through a second story window that shattered, dropping him onto the cement below. Kamiran Dadah immediately phoned the police and ran down the stairs to find Feras sitting on the ground, severely bleeding from a deep gash on his shoulder. Dadah and Fobes urged him to get back in the house, but Feras Morad stood and walked through an open gate and into the alley. The unnamed officer arrived alone in the alley and confronted Feras after stopping his car, telling him to raise his hands. Morad was not able to comply, and instead moved about aimlessly in the alley as witnesses yelled to the police officer that he was unarmed and in need of immediate medical attention.

Feras Morad was shirtless, without any weapon, bleeding from multiple wounds, and possibly suffering head trauma from the fall. Witnesses report that Morad did not threaten the officer. He did not physically swing, attack, or verbally indicate aggression toward the police officer or anyone else. Feras Morad was unable to comply with any of the officer’s demands for compliance and continued to be confused and injured, “like a bird with a broken wing hobbling around in the house”, one witness said. The officer was unable to immobilize Feras, but witnesses report there was no fight, just the police officer trying to subdue Feras. As Dadah and Fobes were moved from the scene by emergency personnel, they continued to scream that Feras was unarmed and in need of help as the unnamed police officer fired 3 shots, all on target.

We have recorded official statements from both people who were with Feras that night. Both Kamiran Dadah and Ryan Fobes are awaiting to see the official narrative that emerges from the Long Beach Police, at which point we will get in touch with the press and explain what happened in that detail.

“Justice For Feras Morad”
I spoke with students in LA who knew Morad. They say he was a great student, committed debate team member, and volunteer with the Muslim civil rights organization the Council on American–Islamic Relations (CAIR).

Morad had a 3.9 GPA and was a nationally ranked debater.

Supporters of Morad created Facebook and Twitter pages demanding “Justice For Feras Morad.”

Feras’ sister Ghada and supporters have created a #Justice4Feras and #‎NotAnotherPoliceShooting‬ social media campaign.


justice-for-feras.jpg

Edit: Can a mod reading help embed that video? Not sure why it isn't working. Thanks.
 
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What a truly tragic scenario. It is such a shame when we lose a young person in this manner. However, I will resist the urge to post my thoughts at this moment in hopes they may change after fully digesting this story.
 
They're poor. So they commit more crimes. Poverty is the problem. The majority of people who have something tangible don't want to risk jeopardizing that for a fast buck, revenge, thrills or whatever else motivates violent criminals.

So you can argue that the man is keeping these people down because the vast majority of wealth in the US is held by a very few individuals. Some will put in work and get out but unskilled jobs with decent pay are hard to come by these days so more people are left without anything and turn to crime because it pays better than 7-11.

Just read the page and couldn't get the context. Are you justifying crime here? :eek:

Tbh, what you say makes sense. It's a vicious cycle, but the fact is that no matter how justified the motives are, the results are always bad.
 
Just read the page and couldn't get the context. Are you justifying crime here? :eek:

Tbh, what you say makes sense. It's a vicious cycle, but the fact is that no matter how justified the motives are, the results are always bad.

Not justifying, no. It was in response to the question in bold in Nobby's post right before mine. It's a bit simplistic, to be fair.
 
Minority - not living in the projects any more but raised in the projects. Watched my childhood friends go to jail, get killed and supply drugs to the entire neighborhood.

Decided this wasn't the life for me...didn't want to depend on the government. Got out, educated myself, and now live happily with my beautiful wife and kids away from the shit hole I grew up in.

Are there any issues with my plight? Am I not hood enough because I don't buy the shite spewed by my race on a daily basis? Am I an Uncle Tom for wanting to get out as fast as I could? You can have at me all you want - I've heard it all. At the end of the day, I made something of myself and appreciate the opportunity I have in this country.

I made my future - no one else did - on my own. Forgive me if I don't buy into the garbage that people are selling...and forgive me for respecting the law, the police and the job they do.

I'm glad you made it out. However you (or I) can't turn our successes into a bashing stick for the majority who can't make it out. The odds are heavily stacked against us. Where do I start...

1. Minimal job opportunities
2. Significant proportion of urban males in jail due to punitive laws and oppressive police policies
3. Failing schools (cf the Wire season 4)
4. Dilapidated urban infrastructure
5. Low level of support systems to help youth escape such situations

And so on...

I've been involved with mentoring black kids in middle school before. It is heartbreaking to speak to these kids for one hour, give them something to look forward to in life, and know that they are going back to the broken down neighborhoods that offer no role models and support systems to ensure they end up in good places. So it's more complicated than you making your future; a lot of people in your past situation put in the same effort that you did or even more, but the dice rolled against them.

Just read the page and couldn't get the context. Are you justifying crime here? :eek:

Tbh, what you say makes sense. It's a vicious cycle, but the fact is that no matter how justified the motives are, the results are always bad.

Yes the results are always bad, but what options do they have? One doesn't have to justify crime to understand why it happens. These aren't monsters as the media makes them out to be; people are just trying to eat and survive from day to day. It's easy for us to sit in our homes and pontificate; but like you mentioned, it is a vicious cycle many people are trapped in. You can't just snap out of it.
 
@adexkola and @bpet15
You both make good points. I'm a huge proponent of personal responsibility and it works both ways. The sooner both sides take responsibility for their actions rather than blaming others the sooner we can fix the problem.

I was raised pretty privileged so I can't properly relate to how it is to grow up impoverished with little opportunity but my mother was raised dirt poor in post WW2 Swansea. Dirt poor as in she never had shoes without holes in them until she got a job at 14 and bought her own and her family used to eat the left over produce from the market. She is the Only one in her family to get out of Swansea (although her sister got an education later in life) and she went on to become a uni lecturer and midwife. She had to do it on her own but some kids just can't see the light with the lack of help and support they're born in to. Some are able to persevere largely on their own like it sounds like yall did (forgive me if that's not accurate). We need to do a better job of helping kids and their families see a way out, but in turn people in rough situations need to focus on overcoming the obstacles they're stuck with rather than blaming those who are more privileged and/or looking for the quick, illegal way out. It's a two way street.

Having said all that, I cant agree that being raised in a bad environment vindicates one for committing violent crimes against others or selling drugs and ruining lives. being upset about a lack of opportunities is one thing, but using that as an excuse for robbery, burglary, or selling drugs to kids just doesn't fly with me. My mum's brother harbors some resentment towards her for excelling which is a common thing (hence the Uncle Tom comment from bpet) but he's still a good person who cares for his family and would never burglarize (for example) somebody because he felt he was dealt a bad hand in life, no matter how hopeless things seem. I'm with @bpet15 in that sense. Not being able to make it out doesn't excuse doing things to others we all know are wrong. I'm not talking about stealing a loaf of bread to feed one's family. I'm talking about people who aren't satisfied with the minimum wage jobs and minimal welfare available to them deciding to turn to crime to get more instead of pursuing the more difficult, slower route, and then blaming their situation.

Anyway, I'm happy to hear that yall both managed to improve your situation and make a better life for your kids than yall had growing up.
 
I'm glad you made it out. However you (or I) can't turn our successes into a bashing stick for the majority who can't make it out. The odds are heavily stacked against us. Where do I start...

1. Minimal job opportunities
2. Significant proportion of urban males in jail due to punitive laws and oppressive police policies
3. Failing schools (cf the Wire season 4)
4. Dilapidated urban infrastructure
5. Low level of support systems to help youth escape such situations

And so on...

I've been involved with mentoring black kids in middle school before. It is heartbreaking to speak to these kids for one hour, give them something to look forward to in life, and know that they are going back to the broken down neighborhoods that offer no role models and support systems to ensure they end up in good places. So it's more complicated than you making your future; a lot of people in your past situation put in the same effort that you did or even more, but the dice rolled against them.



Yes the results are always bad, but what options do they have? One doesn't have to justify crime to understand why it happens. These aren't monsters as the media makes them out to be; people are just trying to eat and survive from day to day. It's easy for us to sit in our homes and pontificate; but like you mentioned, it is a vicious cycle many people are trapped in. You can't just snap out of it.

You bring up some very valid points - all of which I agree with - but also all of which I ask the question, Why? For me at least, and forgive the elementary analogy - but it is much like the chicken or the egg question.

1) Why are there minimal job opportunities? Are there minimal job opportunities because business do not want to invest and operate in areas that are full of crime and drugs? Which one solves our problems - do we first clean up areas and minimize drugs and crime so businesses want to come to these areas or do we first need to have businesses establish themselves in these areas in order to get rid of the crime and drugs?
2) Why are so many urban males incarcerated? Easy answer is - because they commit the vast majority of crimes. However, solving the job issue seems to be the first logical step in reducing arrests. The more urban males that have a steady job - the less crimes are committed.
3) Why are the schools so bad? Is it because good quality teachers do not want to teach in that environment? Is it because there is a lack of importance set on education? Is it because the youth of today are brought up to question authority rather than respect it? Again, I don't know the answer - but I do know that this is a large part of the viscous cycle - and anything involving our youth needs to be high up on the priority list.
4) Why is the infrastructure so dilapidated? I think this goes hand in hand with issue # 1. You have to follow the money - and there aren't exactly a lot of people looking to invest in these areas due to the environment and lack of return on those investments.
5) Why the lack of support systems? This is another one that hits close to home. Single mother households, lack of father figures, teen pregnancy, shitty education system, lack of jobs...they all fall play a role in this. I commend those that are trying to do things the right way (work real jobs with small wages) - but many have to make the decision to a)put food on the table for their children or b)be active in their childrens lives. This is a real life decision that many have to make and most choose a over b - which leads kids to making the wrong decisions at early ages in which an engaged parent could have counseled them against.

In the end, this viscous cycle has to be broken somehow...I am just not smart enough to understand exactly how it needs to be done.

I do think the first thing that has to be done is to answer this question. Are the residents a product of the environment or is the environment a product of the residents? I honestly don't know the answer...hence the chicken and the egg analogy.
 
Two incidents in recent days in my area.

One in the city of Rochester. An man driving a pick up truck hits a parked car, a house and a church. When police arrive he at some point gets out of his truck, possibly disoriented from the accident, possibly under the influence of something. Police version is that he refused to respond to orders and came at the officer. The officer used a taser or stun gun to subdue the man. when the cops tried to cuff him, they discovered he was not breathing took off the cuffs and called for emergency medical services. Some witnesses claiming the man came at the cops with his hands up, others claiming he was standing still with his hands up. Waiting on M.E. report for cause of death.

http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S3813234.shtml?cat=565



Second incident happened about 3/4 mile from where I live. In the parking lot of a local Mall. A man had been reported missing earlier in the day. There were concerns about him being suicidal. A car matching the description of his car was seen in the overflow area of the malls parking lot. Police were called. The man was armed with a loaded hand gun. Some sort of altercation took place. The man was shot twice and killed.

http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S3813361.shtml?cat=565
 
You bring up some very valid points - all of which I agree with - but also all of which I ask the question, Why? For me at least, and forgive the elementary analogy - but it is much like the chicken or the egg question.

It appears to be a chicken or egg question, but that assumption is conclusively false. African Americans have been disenfranchised from American society through slavery, Jim Crow in the south, discrimination in the north, and punitive drug laws. That is the primary cause for the majority of blacks being in a poor state today, not their personal failings. They've been left behind. You can't expect them to make up the distance on sheer effort and will. A few try and succeed. Many try and fail. Some say feck it and go the illegal route. All that doesn't wipe away the history of how that gap was created in the first place.

1) Why are there minimal job opportunities? Are there minimal job opportunities because business do not want to invest and operate in areas that are full of crime and drugs? Which one solves our problems - do we first clean up areas and minimize drugs and crime so businesses want to come to these areas or do we first need to have businesses establish themselves in these areas in order to get rid of the crime and drugs?

You're asking the wrong question. If there are minimal job opportunities, it is the job of the government to facilitate employment. We have not seen an urban renewal project akin to that of FDR's New Deal or the War on Poverty that Johnson launched. FDR didn't go on a rant about how the residents of Appalachia needed to pull their pants up and stop inbreeding, feuding, bootlegging moonshine, and start going to school. He and his administration introduced programs that aimed to improve the life of white residents in the region and nationwide. The federal government stepped in and saved several auto industries from collapsing.

This ignores rampant job discrimination by private companies today. A white man with a criminal record is more likely to get hired than a black man without a criminal record. Odds stacked.

2) Why are so many urban males incarcerated? Easy answer is - because they commit the vast majority of crimes. However, solving the job issue seems to be the first logical step in reducing arrests. The more urban males that have a steady job - the less crimes are committed.

This is a fallacy. Sentencing laws unfairly target African Americans and Hispanics. The disparity between sentences for trafficking crack cocaine vs powder cocaine (which was reduced, but not eliminated) devastated an entire generation. Laws like the 3 strikes rule in California were sweeping and lacked restraint, sending people to prison for life for non-violent crimes. I find it ironic that people are wasting away in prison now for trafficking marijuana, while businesses in Colorado are making a killing selling the product legally.

Minorities are more likely to be put on death row than whites convicted of the same crimes. Minorities are profiled while driving despite amount of driving violations being similar to those of whites.

This all feeds into a lot of urban males ending up with a criminal record. Locking them out of decent employment opportunities. The cycle repeats.

3) Why are the schools so bad? Is it because good quality teachers do not want to teach in that environment? Is it because there is a lack of importance set on education? Is it because the youth of today are brought up to question authority rather than respect it? Again, I don't know the answer - but I do know that this is a large part of the viscous cycle - and anything involving our youth needs to be high up on the priority list.

I blame disparity in funding for urban schools compared to their counterparts in the suburbs. There's an ugly racial tint to the history of how the suburbs were created, how mortgages were denied to black people post WW2, how neighborhoods were emptied of white families overnight on the threat a nigger family was moving in. Entire swaths of urban zip codes were redlined, denying black people from obtaining FHA mortgages, and feeding them into exploitative mortgage contracts that screwed them over royally. Property taxes fund education at the elementary and secondary levels in this country, so inner cities with depressed neighborhoods won't have as much funding as the suburbs. This results in schools with minimal supplies, lackluster teachers, and disappointed students.

I agree with you in that I also blame lack of quality parenting. Some blame can be aimed at individuals (father your sons) definitely. There are several specialized high schools of excellence in New York, public but some of the best in the country. Admission is based upon merit alone, after taking a standardized test. The overwhelming majority of kids at these schools are Asian. That says a lot about the black community's relative failure to do right by their kids, but it's more complicated than "raise your kids".

4) Why is the infrastructure so dilapidated? I think this goes hand in hand with issue # 1. You have to follow the money - and there aren't exactly a lot of people looking to invest in these areas due to the environment and lack of return on those investments.

I addressed this already. Government.

5) Why the lack of support systems? This is another one that hits close to home. Single mother households, lack of father figures, teen pregnancy, shitty education system, lack of jobs...they all fall play a role in this. I commend those that are trying to do things the right way (work real jobs with small wages) - but many have to make the decision to a)put food on the table for their children or b)be active in their childrens lives. This is a real life decision that many have to make and most choose a over b - which leads kids to making the wrong decisions at early ages in which an engaged parent could have counseled them against.

Spot on. But people of all genders and races have issues and make mistakes. People get knocked up. People flunk out of school. But it seems as if though black people are held to a higher level of personal responsibility. That should not be the case.

In the end, this viscous cycle has to be broken somehow...I am just not smart enough to understand exactly how it needs to be done.

I do think the first thing that has to be done is to answer this question. Are the residents a product of the environment or is the environment a product of the residents? I honestly don't know the answer...hence the chicken and the egg analogy.

The residents are a product of the environment, which is a legacy of the racism African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanic Americans have faced in this country. There is a feedback loop but there is no question how things started. Look at Black Wall Street in Tulsa. Prosperous thriving community of black owned businesses and enterprises. Burned down by whites in the 1920s. Reservations which isolate Native Americans from the rest of the country and condemn countless people to a life of alcoholism, drug usage and violence. Blanket laws which enable judges to lock away Latino youths for appearing to affiliate with gangs. I'm scratching the surface with this patchy post, but you can't just shrug all that away and say, "work through it, I did".
 
Good post @adexkola - your knowledge of historical events that lead us to where we are is quite impressive.

There is a lot to take in. It seems that time (for those that suffered in the past) is the one theme that is needed for improvement in many areas.
 
What's the point of this ? All the people involved with slavery on both sides are long dead.

Yeah, as if it left no legacy. Just look at the Southern United States. Look at the Republican party and their 24/7 race card. Racist is part of who they are. When I was a kid, interracial marriage was banned in many states, "coloreds" still rode the back of the bus, drank from different water fountains and stayed in different hotels, etc etc etc. I am very much alive!

Cities are still massively segregated. Gee, I wonder where that legacy came from. African American communities are still rioting to this day, or am I imaging this?

Let´s put our head in a hole and pretend everything is ok. How convenient.
 
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Yeah, as if it left no legacy. Just look at the Southern United States. Look at the Republican party and their 24/7 race card. Racist is part of who they are. When I was a kid, interracial marriage was banned in many states, "coloreds" still rode the back of the bus, drank from different water fountains and stayed in different hotels, etc etc etc. I am very much alive!

Cities are still massively segregated. Gee, I wonder where that legacy came from.

Let´s put our head in a hole and pretend everything is ok. How convenient.

And handing money from today's people who had nothing to do with it is supposed to undo history ? Brilliant logic as usual.