Right, different levels of seriousness but still an issue.
American Cops Doing What They Do Best
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Right, different levels of seriousness but still an issue.
Again, the white (very white) elephant in the room when dealing with how difficult it will be to change or reform American police culture.
http://www.citypaper.com/news/mobto...epartments-blue-wall-20150120,0,7795350.story
Whistleblower cop Joseph Crystal recalls his battles with Baltimore's blue wall of silence
Faced with a potentially life-changing dilemma, Joseph Crystal asked his parents what to do. “Both my parents were NYPD police,” Crystal says by phone from a law office in New York City.
Both told him to report wrongdoing by fellow police officers, he says.
“Mom said I already knew what I had to do. Dad said the badge doesn’t mean anything if I’m not gonna do what’s right,” Crystal says. “Neither of them wavered.”
What Crystal did next cuts to the heart of police culture, in Baltimore and a lot of other cities. For turning in two officers who brutalized a drug suspect, Crystal was threatened and ostracized and eventually hounded out of the department. On Dec. 22, he filed a civil lawsuit demanding more than $10 million.
The police department has a policy of not commenting on lawsuits, Det. Ruganzu Howard, a department spokesman, says. He also declines to discuss the underlying issue: officers who give suspects a little extra punishment for disrespecting the badge, fleeing, or maybe just because the officer is having a stressful day . . . (cont)
http://www.citypaper.com/news/mobto...epartments-blue-wall-20150120,0,7795350.story
Whistleblower cop Joseph Crystal recalls his battles with Baltimore's blue wall of silence
Faced with a potentially life-changing dilemma, Joseph Crystal asked his parents what to do. “Both my parents were NYPD police,” Crystal says by phone from a law office in New York City.
Both told him to report wrongdoing by fellow police officers, he says.
“Mom said I already knew what I had to do. Dad said the badge doesn’t mean anything if I’m not gonna do what’s right,” Crystal says. “Neither of them wavered.”
What Crystal did next cuts to the heart of police culture, in Baltimore and a lot of other cities. For turning in two officers who brutalized a drug suspect, Crystal was threatened and ostracized and eventually hounded out of the department. On Dec. 22, he filed a civil lawsuit demanding more than $10 million.
The police department has a policy of not commenting on lawsuits, Det. Ruganzu Howard, a department spokesman, says. He also declines to discuss the underlying issue: officers who give suspects a little extra punishment for disrespecting the badge, fleeing, or maybe just because the officer is having a stressful day . . . (cont)
I meant didn't have it on him. I presumed he has a license. In Ireland you need a license to drive but you're not expected to always have it in the car with you.
Different in America, right? Surely no more than a minor offense though?
I know of people being told to be sure to have it next time.
This is why people can't trust the police as an organisation and not just the individual "bad apples".
I respect your opinion a lot and it's good to have you in this thread providing a different perspective. But don't you think it's shocking that a situation like that escalated completely and ended in an unarmed teenager being shot dead? I don't really understand how you can defend the excessive force here? Do you believe that resisting arrest without threatening the life of the police officer warrents a deadly shooting? Even if we ignore what lead to the traffic control (it sounds a bit dodgy to me), doesn't it show a total lack of training from the police officer that he couldn't handle the situation without killing the boy?
It's really a bit disturbing that in this case you make it sound like punching a police officer warrents the death penalty. Maybe I'm wrong about the law, but in my opinion it really really shouldn't. It's the most shocking part in these discussions. Whenever you hear the police side of the story, it seems like it's completely ignoring what should be a basic principle of their job, using the gun as a last resort to protect lifes, not as a tool for intimidation and preventive actions without actually knowing if lifes are under threat.
I get that it's an incredibly dangerous job (way more in the US than in Germany for obvious reasons, so I'm certainly not in the best position to judge because besides some tourist visits to the US I've never been there for long, let alone in a dangerous situation). But if that basic principle was thrown out of the window and police officers can actively escalate situations through misbehaviour (which could be argued to be the case in almost all the videos posted here) and then use minor wrongdoings from the offenders/victims (sadly they're usually both) as a legitimation of violence and murder, then it's impossible to side with the police anymore, no matter how difficult and dangerous your job is.
Cops definitely need more training and emphasis on de-escalating situations. Obviously if a physical altercation occurs not every cop will be able to physically over power every citizen. Other non lethal means should be available
@Balu
If anything, I think this is an example, as with the Michael Brown case, that just because a person is unarmed, it doesn't make them not dangerous or deadly. The officer attempted to use the taser first, and it was unsuccessful (which happens surprisingly often, hence why so many officers can be reluctant to rely on it, but that's another discussion) and so through a scuffle, the teenager ends up on top striking him.
This isn't like a regular fight between two drunk guys on the street where a guy gets knocked out and the other stumbles away. If someone is willing to go hands on with an officer, either because they're drunk, on drugs, or whatever the reason, it's assumed it won't end well. If that officer is being struck to the point of feeling himself losing consciousness, he damn well better stop that however he can. It might sound excessive to a civilian, or to someone from a country where things are different than the U.S., but if an officer is about to be out cold, he has no way to stop that person from at that point taking his gun and shooting him, or just beating him to death.
Cue all the arguments about not knowing if his gun would be taken.
If anything, I think this is an example, as with the Michael Brown case, that just because a person is unarmed, it doesn't make them not dangerous or deadly. The officer attempted to use the taser first, and it was unsuccessful (which happens surprisingly often, hence why so many officers can be reluctant to rely on it, but that's another discussion) and so through a scuffle, the teenager ends up on top striking him.
This isn't like a regular fight between two drunk guys on the street where a guy gets knocked out and the other stumbles away. If someone is willing to go hands on with an officer, either because they're drunk, on drugs, or whatever the reason, it's assumed it won't end well. If that officer is being struck to the point of feeling himself losing consciousness, he damn well better stop that however he can. It might sound excessive to a civilian, or to someone from a country where things are different than the U.S., but if an officer is about to be out cold, he has no way to stop that person from at that point taking his gun and shooting him, or just beating him to death.
Cue all the arguments about not knowing if his gun would be taken.
It didn't really seem necessary to taze the kid.
In Canada you're supposed to have it on you but if you don't and you bring it to the copshop within 24 hours everything is cool.
Yeah the authority tripping is a bit much. \It's too disrespectful and in the US that's a bad thing.
didnt seem necessary to drive under the influence of drugs, not cooperate by providing his drivers license, and then resist arrest either....but that's none of my business.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't actually suggest shooting someone in the limb as a viable option?
There was absolutely no need for that situation to escalate the way it did. A more patient and sensible cop would have never ended up man-handling that kid. Once he went on that power trip it was never going to end well.
Anyway, as I said, the really shocking aspect is the fact he pulled the kid over at all, knowing his lights were dazzling people and hence prompting them to flash him. Then he had the nerve to deny his lights were dazzling. Lying wanker. That and continuing to drive a car that was causing danger on the road.
The fact there's such a massive disconnect between what a civilian thinks is appropriate in these situations and what a policeman thinks is appropriate in these suggestions suggests there's a fundamental flaw in the system, surely? Policemen take on the (very honourable) responsibility to protect and serve their citizens, their city and their country but what many of these videos are showing is that their concern is not in fact about protecting the people. Surely that's undeniable? Protect yourself first and foremost, sure, but the secondary concern has to be about doing everything you can to protect all other parties involved...and it seems that the secondary concern has been very much ignored in the majority of these cases.
I completely agree. The #1 rule for officers is to go home at the end of their shift. That should be reached through doing everything possible to make sure everyone you encounter is handled accordingly. No one should need to be killed unnecessarily. There's plenty of examples of officers in here who shouldn't ever be allowed to work again, and some who should be in jail. There's also some who are unfairly being grouped into that "category" of bad cop when they acted within the confines of policy and the law.
I don't think everyone should just drop to their knees and follow officers orders blindly, however, if this teenager followed instructions and complied since he was driving without a license and after smoking marijuana, then this could have been avoided as well. Not to say the officer handled everything well, but he did avoid using deadly force until he was being beaten into unconsciousness.
Was it? Do we really know what happened? Is there more reliable information than what we saw on the video posted in the link you provided? Maybe it's naive from me, but an unarmed teenager who smoked a bit weed was lying face down on the ground, and the last we can hear in the video is him screaming in pain. It's obvious that a struggle happened, but surely it's still absolutely 100% wrong that this ended in a deadly shooting? The officer initiated the traffic stop for very dubious reasons, totally failed to control the situation and now we should blindly trust his statement that's supposed to explain in a questionable way the most extreme outcome possible?
How did the teenager get the upper hand in the fight in the first place? What actually happened after the teenager screamed in pain? Why was there the need to use the taser in the first place? Surely a kid lying on the ground face down can be forced into hand-cuffs without the need for a taser? Do you find nothing at all dubious about this and think the officer should get away with it just because of his statement? At the very least his competence to handle the situation should be questioned?
I agree with the first part. I think there's a lot more scepticism appropriate for the 2nd part.
Well part of that will stem from different perspectives. You'll be coming from the side of seeing the media stories and reports of officers being assholes. I'm coming from the side of dealing with people who break the law, drinking and driving etc, who then are belligerent and resisting commands for a variety of reasons.
An officer I worked with got into a fist fight in the middle of the freeway at 3 am because some guy was on drugs and was walking there. After he was fighting, he was tased and put in cuffs. Once in the car he tried kicking out the back windows. I had to transport him from the hospital to jail. He said he saw the officer approaching and was deciding how hard he needed to fight. He said if he didn't fight that the officers would think he was a bitch. ..But he didn't want to fight too hard to make it worse.
That's the kind of mindset some people have, and when they're on drugs on top of that, you aren't ever sure how things will pan out. That event could easily be told as cops show up and start beating and tasing a pedestrian on the freeway.
I think I'm more than fair when judging most of the events in here (not that my opinion really matters, I know) but there's certain instances when I'll back an officer and his actions. I was pretty adamant about waiting on the Michael Brown case to hear all the facts, when most were following the narrative of early reports. I'd also back this officer here with these circumstances. NOT to say he handled everything well, but at the point of him shooting his firearm, there was justification to do so.
Man with towel-wrapped arm shot by LAPD in Los Feliz was unarmed
Los Angeles police shot and critically wounded a man after he raised his arm, wrapped in a towel, toward officers Friday in Los Feliz, police said.
Police said officers thought the man had a gun, but he turned out to be unarmed.
The man flagged down officers about 6:35 p.m. at Los Feliz Boulevard and Tica Drive south of Griffith Park, according to a police account.
"This person extended an arm wrapped in a towel. The officer exited the vehicle and said, 'Drop the gun, drop the gun,'" LAPD Lt. John Jenal said.
Then at least one officer shot the man, officials say. He was taken to a hospital where he was listed in critical condition.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...-arm-shot-in-head-by-lapd-20150620-story.html
It's unbelievable how poorly trained these asshole cops really are.
Los Angeles police shot and critically wounded a man after he raised his arm, wrapped in a towel, toward officers Friday in Los Feliz, police said.
Police said officers thought the man had a gun, but he turned out to be unarmed.
The man flagged down officers about 6:35 p.m. at Los Feliz Boulevard and Tica Drive south of Griffith Park, according to a police account.
"This person extended an arm wrapped in a towel. The officer exited the vehicle and said, 'Drop the gun, drop the gun,'" LAPD Lt. John Jenal said.
Then at least one officer shot the man, officials say. He was taken to a hospital where he was listed in critical condition.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...-arm-shot-in-head-by-lapd-20150620-story.html
It's unbelievable how poorly trained these asshole cops really are.
I don't think it's that easy. As I wrote before, I think it's great that you're providing a different perspective in this thread and I happily clicked on the link you provided with the expectation of getting an example of an officer who was justified to defend his life by using his gun, because you're right that the examples here paint a really one-sided picture. Obviously all the negative stories had an impact and I don't trust blindly the statement we have from the cop, but I also always question one-sided stories provided from the media in the other direction.
What happened here was that I saw a video of a harmless incident that escalated for no sensible reason and the story of the officer sounds very dubious. The moment when the video cuts off makes no sense at all and is way too convenient for the cop. Yeah, maybe it's a coincidence, but it raises questions. If there's a full video available that covers the shooting as well, I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong of course.
And this leads to my problem with that example. It's a very very weak example to underly your point. It's an example in which we have to trust the cop's story, even though the video that shows the beginning of the incident raises questions about his credibility or at least shows no self-awareness at all (which is very very dangerous in his job). So even if we assume the cop is telling the full truth, it still raises huge questions about his training.
If the teenager instantly started to fight when he got out of the car, it'll be a different story. But the video shows an unarmed teenager lying face down on the ground, then we see a struggle and hear the teenager screaming in pain before the video cuts off. We're not talking about a drugged out, violent criminal here. It never ever should happen that from this moment on the situation escalates and ends in a deadly shooting. There's just no excuse for it.
Maybe it really is a conincidence that the video cuts off exactly at that point, maybe the boy got in a lucky punch and it all went down like the cop said and he really had no other choice (I don't think the pictures prove that the police officer was beaten close to unconsciousness, but it's not impossible).
But my main point is: I find it worrying that you believe that's a good example for a dangerous teenager who deserved to be shot dead. Using the 'the job is so much different in the US than in a country like Germany' excuse kinda shows that even a (for lack of a better word, because I don't like the good cop/bad cop tags, it's never that black and white) 'good' cop like you accepts that incidents like that aren't avoidable. They are, they have to be, every single time. Again, punching a police officer doesn't warrant the death penalty and if the public simply accepts his story without questioning his ability to do the job, the public would agree that the teenager deserved to die. I for one wouldn't want to live in a country where that's the case, no matter how difficult the job for the police is.
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@Balu
I never said an unarmed teenager who throws a punch deserves to be killed. That also isn't what happened.
I'd discuss it more with you, but you obviously have your opinions and you're more than entitled to them. I think I've been more than fair with the videos and stories people post up in here, condemning the actions of officers when they should be.
Although since there's no good cops anyway according to you, I guess I can't win anyway
I never said an unarmed teenager who throws a punch deserves to be killed. That also isn't what happened.
I'd discuss it more with you, but you obviously have your opinions and you're more than entitled to them. I think I've been more than fair with the videos and stories people post up in here, condemning the actions of officers when they should be.
Although since there's no good cops anyway according to you, I guess I can't win anyway
@Balu
I never said an unarmed teenager who throws a punch deserves to be killed. That also isn't what happened.
I'd discuss it more with you, but you obviously have your opinions and you're more than entitled to them. I think I've been more than fair with the videos and stories people post up in here, condemning the actions of officers when they should be.
Although since there's no good cops anyway according to you, I guess I can't win anyway
It's fair to say there are too few good cops if you take into account the closed ranks and watching each other's backs when an officer does something illegal.
I agree. There's also too many "old school" mentalities on the departments. As far as the speaking out goes, it would be for a variety of reasons. Fear of losing their jobs if they speak out at their department. Fear of retaliation of other officers not having their back. You'd have to ask each individual as to their reasons.
It's also fair to say that good cops don't get any of the same coverage of the others. There's plenty of good cop stories that get no coverage or traction in the media. Or get put under the "oh well their job is to help people" category.
I don't think I've blindly defended law enforcement here and said all cops are saints and it's us against the world (not saying that you said I did) but there does need to be a change somewhere along the line. Whether it be training, the hiring, the coverage of stories, etc. It's stuck in a shitty loop of more people reluctant to trust cops and possibly being resistant, to training officers to be wary of people being aggressive towards them, to being aggressive towards people, to causing more people to be reluctant...
The issue is, which side is willing to change first. The public won't because they feel officers need to change and they can achieve that by striking back against the man. Law enforcement won't because they'll fear that officers will be killed if they're afraid of using force. Faults in the logic of both sides, but they need someone to come together and force change if necessary.
@Balu
I never said an unarmed teenager who throws a punch deserves to be killed. That also isn't what happened.
I'd discuss it more with you, but you obviously have your opinions and you're more than entitled to them. I think I've been more than fair with the videos and stories people post up in here, condemning the actions of officers when they should be.
Although since there's no good cops anyway according to you, I guess I can't win anyway
Do you not think - even taking the officer's account at face value - that the officer could have improved his handling of the situation significantly, to the extent that the kid wouldn't have died that night? I do.
I see loads of good cop stories. The bad ones clearly get more coverage because it is usually a beating or a death.
I hope you know that's not what I meant.Although since there's no good cops anyway according to you, I guess I can't win anyway
Absolutely I do. There's a myriad of things that if removed could have changed the outcome. The officers handling of the situation up to that point is one of them.
Your posts were thoughtful and well presented. I'm not sure how he reached his conclusion either.
It's a given that police officers will have deal with people who act irrationally. If they can't deal with those situations without needlessly escalating them (the unnecessary use of the tazer in this case was the most important factor here for me that changed the situation from a minor one to a deadly one) and then causing death then they shouldn't be police officers.
I wasn't serious, hence the smiley face I used. That's the best (and only) assistant DraftMaster I've ever had.
Let's be honest here, I was your slave, not your assistant.
See, we agree on that. We might not even be as far apart in our opinion as you think right now. What I found so odd is that you chose this as an example for a dangerous teenager in this thread, which gave the impression you think the police officer was fully in the right and it was solely the kid's fault that he's dead now.
At the risk of sounding like Michael Moore (I really hate that guy), why is American society seemingly so much more violent than the rest of the world? *2.3 million people incarcerated in the USA compared to less than 2 million in China, jusat over 1 million in India -- both countries with a population 3-4 times the size of the United States. Similar statistics exist regarding gun crime.
There must be a reason (or maybe a lot of reasons) for it. Is it because the USA's history with slavery and subsequent racial tension that followed (and persists)?. I don't know enough about the individual cases, but when I read this thread -- and the news in general -- I always ask myself these same things.
There must be a reason (or maybe a lot of reasons) for it. Is it because the USA's history with slavery and subsequent racial tension that followed (and persists)?. I don't know enough about the individual cases, but when I read this thread -- and the news in general -- I always ask myself these same things.
Stupid war on drugs.
Race is undoubtedly a major factor.
Either way, wonderful you were
My point, which I'm starting to realize was poorly put across on my part...was that just because a teenager is unarmed, doesn't mean he can't be dangerous, and also that the other options s an officer has to use don't always mean they will resolve the situation. (The second part of which doesn't really apply here anyway since at that point it wasn't a "firearm or taser" decision) I didn't mean to imply the officer was walking down the street and was ambushed, just that an unarmed person can still be considered 'deadly' in certain circumstances.
I think we will be farthest apart on that last area than the rest.
Even scarier when you look at the incarceration rates per capitaAt the risk of sounding like Michael Moore (I really hate that guy), why is American society seemingly so much more violent than the rest of the world? *2.3 million people incarcerated in the USA compared to less than 2 million in China, jusat over 1 million in India -- both countries with a population 3-4 times the size of the United States. Similar statistics exist regarding gun crime.
There must be a reason (or maybe a lot of reasons) for it. Is it because the USA's history with slavery and subsequent racial tension that followed (and persists)?. I don't know enough about the individual cases, but when I read this thread -- and the news in general -- I always ask myself these same things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
If you toggle the table to highest first the US sits in 2nd place on 707/10k with only the Seychelles on 868/10k ahead of them and that's with youth figures excluded from the US total. If you include juvenile detention figures and add in the ~500k that go into juvenile detention per year in the US against the 318.9M population that figure corrects to 864/10k almost identical to the Seychelles. If you knock out the small island nations though and look to major population centres and developed countries, you are:
Twice as likely to be banged up in the US than in Russia
Three times more likely than in Brazil or Iran
Five times more likely than in Saudi or China
Six times more likely than in the UK, Australia or Iraq
Eight times more likely than in France or Canada
and twenty nine times more likely than in India
and still not a hint of irony detected in the "land of the free" moniker
It's also because private prisons are a thing. Companies make big money from locking up people.
... and the tax payer pays those private companies to lock people up. All this from a nation that are the most heavily armed on earth for "self defence" purposes, yet still the majority will not admit things are going wrong.