Ander Herrera vs N'golo Kanté | Thread has gone well

So if Chelsea had Herrera instead of Kante they wouldn't be top of the league this year?

Chelsea score more goals, this much is clear. I'm not suggesting that Kante is the only reason Chelsea are top of the table, if we scored more goals we would be right there with them.

That doesn't take away from the fact that Kante is a better player than Herrera.
 
Chelsea score more goals, this much is clear. I'm not suggesting that Kante is the only reason Chelsea are top of the table, if we scored more goals we would be right there with them.

That doesn't take away from the fact that Kante is a better player than Herrera.
Why didn't you answer the question? If Chelsea had Herrera instead of Kante would they not be top of the league, in your opinion?
 
Well, I suppose I'd have to respectfully disagree with you then mate. I'm a big believer in the power of statistics in general as a tool, but it's important to keep in mind that stats in football are really in their infancy, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. I know it's very hand-wavey and a bit anecdotal, but Kante's impact goes beyond what we can currently measure. The security he brings to the midfield allows the rest of the team to play with so much freedom-for instance now Hazard doesn't have to defend and can roam the entire attacking third, destabilising the opposing defense. That's a direct result of Kante's presence, but how can it be properly quantified?

I will say that Herrera is absolutely underrated by the wider public, which is a bit of a shame. I don't think, however, that he could do the job of Kante in a 2 man midfield, but he's the perfect complementary player for Pogba as an energetic box to box midfielder in a 3 if you put a deep lying passer behind them and approximated the Juventus midfield of Pogba-Pirlo-Vidal.

He wouldn't be exactly the same, but when he played with Carrick under LVG you could see what he can be in a 2 with a defensive partner.
Kante has Matic screening him in behind, whilst at United Herrera playing with Pogba has to act as the screen sometimes.

I think Herrera playing with Matic protecting him would be great, wouldn't be as energetic as Kante though but he is still very effective as putting the opposition under pressure and forcing turnovers in midfield, but then he would offer a lot more on the ball in terms of creativity so it balances out.

Obviously you have to say Kante is having the better season, but if United were having a better season, then Herrera would be getting a lot of accolades too.
 
That's it.

Anyone remember Kante made 14 tackles alone at Anfield in a game Liverpool really pushing us?

United are playing wide football. A lot of pace and room for going forward but also a lot of pace and room for opponents attacking you. When you are under the thread, you tend to make nore tackle and interception.

On the other hand, Chelsea this season is super organized and solid defensively. It is the controlling team in most of the games. When things are in control, you don't have to do much stuff of interception or tackle.

But I repeat, the battle will be on Monday's night.

Somehow the stats doesn't back up this control theory. Only City, Spurs and Liverpool had more possession than ManUtd and there is nothing between Spurs and ManUtd. Difference is very negligible.

Kante, Herrera games at Anfield.

Kante
Total tackles attempted: 16
Tackles won : 9 (7 failed)
Aerial duels: 1/3
Interceptions: 1
Take ons: 0
Pass completion: 66%
Chances created : 1

Herrera
Total tackles attempted: 16
Tackles won : 5 (7 failed nad 4 fouls)
Aerial duels: 4/5
Interceptions: 10
Take ons: 6
Pass completion: 73%
Chances created : 0
 
Why didn't you answer the question? If Chelsea had Herrera instead of Kante would they not be top of the league, in your opinion?

How is anyone going to know how Herrera would play in Chelsea's team? Unless you can magically see hypothetical situations that no one else can?
 
Clearly, Chelsea and United fans are too biased.

The better way would be to ask the neutral fans who would they rather have in their teams. I'd love to see how many would pick Herrera.

None would pick Herrera as the majority of fans lock at the table and see United having been poor whilst Herrera has been a fixture in the team, whilst every pundit and commentator has waxed lyrical about Kante having essentially won back to back titles and transformed Chelsea this season.

Obviously though Chelsea and Leicester would both have won the league without Kante, as despite his qualities he isn't the kind of player who is worth 10 points a season. Vardy/Mahrez and Costa/Hazard are the match winners in both teams.

Unfortunately neutral fans who regularly watch both teams and who aren't prejudiced by the situation and media surrounding it don't exist.
 
How is anyone going to know how Herrera would play in Chelsea's team? Unless you can magically see hypothetical situations that no one else can?
On that basis how can you possibly say Kante is the better player as they haven't play in the same team at the same time under the same manager?

It's fairly evident your lack of committal implies you do beleive Chelsea would still be top of the league, making the whole argument of 'back to back titles' pointless.
 
I dont think you have even touched my point. Kante has 5 players in a line behind him, that may offer protection if he makes a mistake but it doesn't help him a bit in actually doing his job of protecting them. Afterall, this is the bone we are contendig - How good Kante and Herrera are defensively.

Herrera has a team where the wide areas are covered better and more importantly higher up the pitch. Chelsea surrender more space and sit deep, Kante has to cover, along with matic or Fabregas, all of the space in front if the defence on order for them to keep their shape.

So having essentially 5 defenders and just one other midfielder makes his job harder.

You also seem clueless as to the position Kante actually played before the switch to 343. For all intents and purposes he was the 3rd of centre back, at least positionally wise. Thats the most important point, his restraint from moving away from the cbs. But other obvious disanalogies are available. Kante was the DM in a 3 man midfield with Oscar and Matic is another which show there were far more differences between the position Kante played in earlier on in the season to make any meaningful comparisons with Herrera's positions this season. Sorry to say you are entirely mistaken.
Mate you're having a nightmare. In no world does having less defenders behindand less defensive midfielders beside you make your job easier, it's ridiculous and shows your lack of understanding when it comes to formation and tactics.
Are you trying to tell me Martial and Mata provide sufficient protection to the full backs? You seem to have flatly ignored too just how high up Valenica plays.
 
On that basis how can you possibly say Kante is the better player as they haven't play in the same team at the same time under the same manager?

It's fairly evident your lack of committal implies you do beleive Chelsea would still be top of the league, making the whole argument of 'back to back titles' pointless.

No I don't believe Chelsea would be top of the league (and that's not just because of Kante), you shouldn't make assumptions about my 'lack of committal', what kind of round about logic is that? You're the one who started talking about league positions and hypothetical situations, not me.

Watching Kante play for Leicester last season and Chelsea this season he does far more impressive things defensively than Herrera, also he has a better work rate at both ends of the pitch - in my opinion, which is why I rate him higher than Herrera.
It has nothing to do with league table positions, or the teams/system they play in or what manager or club they play for.
 
I dont think you have even touched my point. Kante has 5 players in a line behind him, that may offer protection if he makes a mistake but it doesn't help him a bit in actually doing his job of protecting them. Afterall, this is the bone we are contendig - How good Kante and Herrera are defensively.

Herrera has a team where the wide areas are covered better and more importantly higher up the pitch. Chelsea surrender more space and sit deep, Kante has to cover, along with matic or Fabregas, all of the space in front if the defence on order for them to keep their shape.

So having essentially 5 defenders and just one other midfielder makes his job harder.

You also seem clueless as to the position Kante actually played before the switch to 343. For all intents and purposes he was the 3rd of centre back, at least positionally wise. Thats the most important point, his restraint from moving away from the cbs. But other obvious disanalogies are available. Kante was the DM in a 3 man midfield with Oscar and Matic is another which show there were far more differences between the position Kante played in earlier on in the season to make any meaningful comparisons with Herrera's positions this season. Sorry to say you are entirely mistaken.

Kante is protected by Matic and the rest so he is free to go and seek and harass the opposition midfield, his job is to go and breakup play, win the ball back, transition it to the opposition half and get it to better players. Due to the protection behind, he doesn't have to worry about being positionally disciplined.

If you take your mind back to the start of the season Kante was playing behind Matic, they also only played with 2 CBs. Kante was often caught out of position and struggled to make a decent impact in games.

Kante has been excellent this season and is the best player in the league at what he does, harassing the opposition midfield and winning the ball back to transition the play. The setup is perfect for him to focus on this.
 
No I don't believe Chelsea would be top of the league (and that's not just because of Kante), you shouldn't make assumptions about my 'lack of committal', what kind of round about logic is that? You're the one who started talking about league positions and hypothetical situations, not me.

Watching Kante play for Leicester last season and Chelsea this season he does far more impressive things defensively than Herrera, also he has a better work rate at both ends of the pitch - in my opinion, which is why I rate him higher than Herrera.
It has nothing to do with league table positions, or the teams/system they play in or what manager or club they play for.

Can't argue with that, but Herrera does far more impressive things offensively than Kante. So it can balance out, it all depends what you are looking for from your CM.
 
Can't argue with that, but Herrera does far more impressive things offensively than Kante. So it can balance out, it all depends what you are looking for from your CM.

Exactly, and this I agree with. His best games (imo) have come when Carrick was at the base of the midfield and allowed Herrera more flexibility going forward.
 
Somehow the stats doesn't back up this control theory. Only City, Spurs and Liverpool had more possession than ManUtd and there is nothing between Spurs and ManUtd. Difference is very negligible.

Kante, Herrera games at Anfield.

Kante
Total tackles attempted: 16
Tackles won : 9 (7 failed)
Aerial duels: 1/3
Interceptions: 1
Take ons: 0
Pass completion: 66%
Chances created : 1

Herrera
Total tackles attempted: 16
Tackles won : 5 (7 failed nad 4 fouls)
Aerial duels: 4/5
Interceptions: 10
Take ons: 6
Pass completion: 73%
Chances created : 0

Where do you take that fake statistics about Kante?

According to Squawka:
+ 9 tackles won
+ 5 blocks made
+ 2 clearances
+ 1 interception
+ 1 chance created

According to Whoscore:
+ 14 tackles won
+ 1 clearances
+ 1 interception
+ 1 chance created

And the whole world knows that he won 14 tackles on that game:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...Golo-Kante-broke-tackle-record-Liverpool.html

Sources:
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/Squawka/826552157344239616
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...nd-Premier-League-2016-2017-Liverpool-Chelsea
 
If given the choice I'd take Kante in a heartbeat.
 
Exactly, and this I agree with. His best games (imo) have come when Carrick was at the base of the midfield and allowed Herrera more flexibility going forward.

Yes that is true, but don't ignore that Kante has Matic as the base which allows him more flexibility to go and seek the ball
 
Where do you take that fake statistics about Kante?

According to Squawka:
+ 9 tackles won
+ 5 blocks made
+ 2 clearances
+ 1 interception
+ 1 chance created

According to Whoscore:
+ 14 tackles won
+ 1 clearances
+ 1 interception
+ 1 chance created

And the whole world knows that he won 14 tackles on that game:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...Golo-Kante-broke-tackle-record-Liverpool.html

Sources:
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/Squawka/826552157344239616
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...nd-Premier-League-2016-2017-Liverpool-Chelsea

So which of those stats are fake?

I took all those stats from Squawka. You posted same stats but added few more like Blocks.

Anyways you have added blocks and clearances, here is Herrera and Kante stats

Kante:
Blocks: 5
Interceptions: 2

Herrera:
Blocks: 4
Interceptions: 2

Whole world knows he won 14 tackles?:lol: The site I use gives break up of how many he won, how many he failed and how many times he fouled while tackling.

Also if you go by whoscored stats then Kante won 14 tackles and 1 interception. Herrera 7 tackles and 10 interceptions. Also Kante blocked 0 shots. So you can't just pick whatever site that suits your narrative.
 
Where do you take that fake statistics about Kante?

According to Squawka:
+ 9 tackles won
+ 5 blocks made
+ 2 clearances
+ 1 interception
+ 1 chance created

According to Whoscore:
+ 14 tackles won
+ 1 clearances
+ 1 interception
+ 1 chance created

And the whole world knows that he won 14 tackles on that game:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...Golo-Kante-broke-tackle-record-Liverpool.html

Sources:
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/Squawka/826552157344239616
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...nd-Premier-League-2016-2017-Liverpool-Chelsea

Wasn't the majority in the last 10 mins? One thing that is really impressive about him is his stamina, he seems to be able to work at the same rate for 90 minutes. Which is a big plus in later stages of games where others get tired. Hes a phenomenal athlete. Herrera also has good work rate but Kante in terms of work rate over 90 mins is untouchable.
 
@MadMike already pointed out Kante struggled in the same formation Herrera is playing in at the moment earlier on in the season and you come to the conclusion he would improve playing in it?

I'm not sure where this idea came from that Kante struggled at the start of the season. No he didn't. He stood out from the first game of the season as something special that we'd been badly lacking. He's become more influential since the formation change, and obviously the whole teams level has risen markedly, but he was damn good from day one.

This whole idea that Kante is 'wildly overrated' that people talk about, just reminds me of Makelele. People said exactly the same things about him, because they didn't understand that a player can be the vital heart of a team without being a flair player. Ask Real Madrid and Zidane about how that works.
 
Yes that is true, but don't ignore that Kante has Matic as the base which allows him more flexibility to go and seek the ball

In the Chelsea system yes, but he was still very impressive for Leicester last season too, next to Drinkwater who offered no where near as much protection - yet Kante was still tireless defensively. Conte has taken his best attributes and plays a system that gets the best out of both Matic and Kante.
We're still struggling to get the most out of Pogba & Herrera, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 additional midfield signings in the summer.
 
I'm not sure where this idea came from that Kante struggled at the start of the season. No he didn't. He stood out from the first game of the season as something special that we'd been badly lacking. He's become more influential since the formation change, and obviously the whole teams level has risen markedly, but he was damn good from day one.

This whole idea that Kante is 'wildly overrated' that people talk about, just reminds me of Makelele. People said exactly the same things about him, because they didn't understand that a player can be the vital heart of a team without being a flair player. Ask Real Madrid and Zidane about how that works.

This is getting ridiculous now.
 
Where did I say he had?
Kante is a superior player and would improve our team.
He would not make us win the league which makes your post about the league position wrt Herrera's quality pointless.
 
So which of those stats are fake?

I took all those stats from Squawka. You posted same stats but added few more like Blocks.

Anyways you have added blocks and clearances, here is Herrera and Kante stats

Kante:
Blocks: 5
Interceptions: 2

Herrera:
Blocks: 4
Interceptions: 2

I did not add them. Did you read the sources? They already were there on Squawka's tweet. I have changed nothing. They wrote (I can't post social media link due to limited membership):

'Golo Kante's game by numbers vs. Liverpool:
9 tackles won
5 blocks made
2 clearances
1 interception
1 chance created
Everywhere tonight

So where did you take that Tackles won : 9 (7 failed) ?
 
I'm not sure where this idea came from that Kante struggled at the start of the season. No he didn't. He stood out from the first game of the season as something special that we'd been badly lacking. He's become more influential since the formation change, and obviously the whole teams level has risen markedly, but he was damn good from day one.

This whole idea that Kante is 'wildly overrated' that people talk about, just reminds me of Makelele. People said exactly the same things about him, because they didn't understand that a player can be the vital heart of a team without being a flair player. Ask Real Madrid and Zidane about how that works.

You could see his energy and work rate and tackling yes. But his positional discipline or lack of it was exposed somewhat and that is why Matic is now playing as the deeper of the two

EDIT: This was the kind of sentiment during his start at Chelsea

http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/story/discover-why-n-golo-kante-is-struggling-at-chelsea-092516

Obviously the team were also not doing so well which also effects how we view players performances and impact
 
I did not add them. Did you read the sources? They already were there on Squawka's tweet. I have changed nothing. They wrote (I can't post social media link due to limited membership):

'Golo Kante's game by numbers vs. Liverpool:
9 tackles won
5 blocks made
2 clearances
1 interception
1 chance created
Everywhere tonight

And which of the stats are wrong? You know you can go to the site and take out stats too right?

In the post I made, I said Kante won 9 tackles, 1 interception, 1 chance created and you posted same thing and told my stats are wrong.
 
Clearly, Chelsea and United fans are too biased.

The better way would be to ask the neutral fans who would they rather have in their teams. I'd love to see how many would pick Herrera.

Few to none i would say. No supporters of other teams i know talk about herrera, but a lot talk about how good kante is.
 
And which of the stats are wrong? You know you can go to the site and take out stats too right?

In the post I made, I said Kante won 9 tackles, 1 interception, 1 chance created and you posted same thing and told my stats are wrong.
So where did you take that Tackles won : 9 (7 failed) ?
 
I'm not sure where this idea came from that Kante struggled at the start of the season. No he didn't. He stood out from the first game of the season as something special that we'd been badly lacking. He's become more influential since the formation change, and obviously the whole teams level has risen markedly, but he was damn good from day one.

This whole idea that Kante is 'wildly overrated' that people talk about, just reminds me of Makelele. People said exactly the same things about him, because they didn't understand that a player can be the vital heart of a team without being a flair player. Ask Real Madrid and Zidane about how that works.

You should re read the thread. The majority are fully capable of "understanding" what he brings to Chelsea. It's the Chelsea = 1st and Utd = 6th so Kante > Herrera posts that are being questioned. Not what he brings to your side.
 
In the Chelsea system yes, but he was still very impressive for Leicester last season too, next to Drinkwater who offered no where near as much protection - yet Kante was still tireless defensively. Conte has taken his best attributes and plays a system that gets the best out of both Matic and Kante.
We're still struggling to get the most out of Pogba & Herrera, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 additional midfield signings in the summer.

I think we all know that Herrera hasn't really been the issue there.

Also with Leicester they played very defensively as a whole and played on the counter, again this suits Kante. Drinkwater wasn't some offensive CM he was also holding and allowing Kante to press opposition.

Anyway I really like Kante if we played a midfield 3 Id like him at United but I'm not sure I would feel with him in a 2 since we would need someone to screen for him and hes not that brilliant offensively
 
Kante's doing it for a second season at a high level.

Herrera's done it for six months.

Sustaining your level is key to judging whether a player is in a purple patch or the real deal.

This Utd team's season will be judged on how they cope with the run in. Playing the big boys with points and cups to play for. In previous years Herrera and co went missing when things went south so lets wait before we start making bold affirmations.
 
For me the answer is easy. Kante is a specialist player who for two seasons running had coaches that were able to build on his strengths and in return both teams were reaping the rewards.
Herrera on the other hand is now having a quite good season which is a bit overrated by his huge fanbase here. After two quite mediocre seasons it is good make no mistake about it. But if we want a midfield 2 going forward with Pogba one of them then Herrera simply needs to be upgraded long term, because he quite simply isn't specialized enough. He has some good characteristics but is a little stuck between and for me only can be good in a midfield three. Maybe if a team is built around his strengths he can be a vital part of a title winning squad but we have yet to witness it unfortunately.
 
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Kante's doing it for a second season at a high level.

Herrera's done it for six months.

Sustaining your level is key to judging whether a player is in a purple patch or the real deal.

This Utd team's season will be judged on how they cope with the run in. Playing the big boys with points and cups to play for. In previous years Herrera and co went missing when things went south so lets wait before we start making bold affirmations.


I think some united fans fail to understand this exact point.
 
For me the answer is easy. Kante is a specialist player who for two seasons running had coaches that were able to build on his strengths and in return both teams were reaping the rewards.
Herrera on the other hand is now having a quite good season which is a bit overrated by his huge fanbase here. After two quite mediocre seasons it is good make no mistake about it. But if we want a midfield 2 going forward with Pogba one of them then Herrera simply needs to be upgraded long term, because he quite simply isn't specialized enough. He has some good characteristics but is a little stuck between and for me only can be good in a midfield three. Maybe if a team is built around his strengths he can be a vital part of a title winning squad but we have yet to witness it unfortunately.

So teams were built on Kante's strengths? Nothing to do with Hazard and his free role then.
 
You should re read the thread. The majority are fully capable of "understanding" what he brings to Chelsea. It's the Chelsea = 1st and Utd = 6th so Kante > Herrera posts that are being questioned. Not what he brings to your side.

I'm not talking about everyone in the thread, simply the couple of people who have made out that he's bang average. I did read the entire thread, and although there aren't many of them, they are here.
 
I'm not talking about everyone in the thread, simply the couple of people who have made out that he's bang average. I did read the entire thread, and although there aren't many of them, they are here.

Quote those posts please?
 
Squawka match report. You get all the stats there.

Okay, I see. The newspaper reported him making 14 tackles while Squawka splitted them into 9 tackles and 5 blocks. That's the difference.

Kante won 14 tackles and 1 interception. Herrera 7 tackles and 10 interceptions.

When a player makes tackle, he take the ball away from another player who is controlling it, while interception is when a player intercepts a pass he sees where the ball is going and stops it from going there. This is my last post of the day due to limitation so I can't post more. You can pick which criteria (tackle or interception) you prefer. If you prefer interception to tackle then Herrera wins, I won't argue with that.

My final point is, still, again, I am looking for Monday's night. Both will be on the pitch.
 
Didn't read all the comments as don't have time so we may have moved on !

But this is just another example of why stats don't carry much information in football.

Carrick never put up good stats defensively because his role (and herreras role when he doesn't play) is to block off attacking channels and constrict space.

FWIW I think Herrera is fantastic, but based on my eye rather than stats. I think he works the ball reasonably well and is pretty smart so he'll get better at this in the rest of his career. I think he is a clever ball winner and often wins it very high up the pitch. Think he's very committed. Doesn't mean he's a gifted holding mid like Kante or Carrick. I hope he gets a chance to play number 8 properly for a couple of seasons for this club.
 
Didn't read all the comments as don't have time so we may have moved on !

But this is just another example of why stats don't carry much information in football.

Carrick never put up good stats defensively because his role (and herreras role when he doesn't play) is to block off attacking channels and constrict space.

FWIW I think Herrera is fantastic, but based on my eye rather than stats. I think he works the ball reasonably well and is pretty smart so he'll get better at this in the rest of his career. I think he is a clever ball winner and often wins it very high up the pitch. Think he's very committed. Doesn't mean he's a gifted holding mid like Kante or Carrick. I hope he gets a chance to play number 8 properly for a couple of seasons for this club.

Kante isn't even a holding player
 
For me the answer is easy. Kante is a specialist player who for two seasons running had coaches that were able to build on his strengths and in return both teams were reaping the rewards.
Herrera on the other hand is now having a quite good season which is a bit overrated by his huge fanbase here. After two quite mediocre seasons it is good make no mistake about it. But if we want a midfield 2 going forward with Pogba one of them then Herrera simply needs to be upgraded long term, because he quite simply isn't specialized enough. He has some good characteristics but is a little stuck between and for me only can be good in a midfield three. Maybe if a team is built around his strengths he can be a vital part of a title winning squad but we have yet to witness it unfortunately.

I think some united fans fail to understand this exact point.

It's a crazy world when the newbies on here are making more sense than the regulars. :)