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Brightonian said:
No, but it has a lot to do with him, and with Giggs.
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The problem this season has been Fergie. Not Scholes and Giggs.

When Keane's legs went Fergie recognised this and played him with players to compensate. He seems to have a blond spot with Giggs and Scholes.

Both are still quality but he fails to see they need help in the middle.
 
#Carl said:
I don't believe that to be the case at all. I think both he and Giggs are more than capable of playing in a midfield 2 providing they're paired with someone who can get up and down.

Neither would be my first choice, obviously, but we seem to have this ridiculous thing now where Scholes and Giggs are the scape goats every time we don't play well.
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Every time we've lined up with one of them in a midfield two this season we've been sub-par. I'm not blaming Scholes and Giggs, I blame what they're asked to do, which is unfair on them.
 
#Carl said:
I don't believe that to be the case at all. I think both he and Giggs are more than capable of playing in a midfield 2 providing they're paired with someone who can get up and down.

Neither would be my first choice, obviously, but we seem to have this ridiculous thing now where Scholes and Giggs are the scape goats every time we don't play well.
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No. Carrick is capable of playing in a midfield two providing he's paired with someone who can get up and down. Scholes is capable of playing in a midfield two provided he's paired with someone who is going to do all the work for him. Giggs, at the moment, could have the best player in the world beside him and it still wouldn't work. Look at the pass completion stats for some of his recent games, they're absurdly poor.

It's not about scapegoating, it's about facing up to the fact that they've been consistently poor recently, and that putting them in midfield is seriously limiting the potential for the rest of the team to play good football.
 
#Carl said:
The problem this season has been Fergie. Not Scholes and Giggs.

When Keane's legs went Fergie recognised this and played him with players to compensate. He seems to have a blond spot with Giggs and Scholes.

Both are still quality but he fails to see they need help in the middle.
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Ah ok this makes your point a little clearer, and I agree. No-one's having a go at Scholes and Giggs, or at least I'm not. It's not their fault they're too old now. But having them in the team selection has been a problem.

I don't think it's about starting them in a midfield three, though. I think it's about not starting them any more. Based on the evidence of this season, Cleverley can now do anything Scholes can do, and a lot more besides. Even Scholes' diagonal pass to the winger has been woefully inconsistent.
 
#Carl said:
I don't believe that to be the case at all. I think both he and Giggs are more than capable of playing in a midfield 2 providing they're paired with someone who can get up and down.

Neither would be my first choice, obviously, but we seem to have this ridiculous thing now where Scholes and Giggs are the scape goats every time we don't play well.
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#Carl said:
The problem this season has been Fergie. Not Scholes and Giggs.

When Keane's legs went Fergie recognised this and played him with players to compensate. He seems to have a blond spot with Giggs and Scholes.

Both are still quality but he fails to see they need help in the middle.
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Defensively, Scholes isnt close to being good enough to be our futhest back midfielder. If he had someone who went up and down the pitch, he'd have to do defensive work which he cant.

He'd flourish in a 3 man midfield when he's there to just spray passes around while the other 2 do the rest of the work but SAF cant see it.

Giggs is finished at this level imo. He offers nothing. The only place i think he can play is on the tip of a midfield 3 but we have 2 players in the squad, if not more, who can do that job better.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Defensively, Scholes isnt close to being good enough to be our futhest back midfielder. If he had someone who went up and down the pitch, he'd have to do defensive work which he cant.

He'd flourish in a 3 man midfield when he's there to just spray passes around while the other 2 do the rest of the work but SAF cant see it.
Giggs is finished at this level imo. He offers nothing. The only place i think he can play is on the tip of a midfield 3 but we have 2 players in the squad, if not more, who can do that job better.
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When has SAF ever played 433 with Scholes? The reason he plays Scholes is so he can spread it wide to the wingers.

Fergie is obsessed with width and wingers.
 
Commadus said:
When has SAF ever played 433 with Scholes? The reason he plays Scholes is so he can spread it wide to the wingers.

Fergie is obsessed with width and wingers.
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He hasnt but thats the only way i see it working. He needs 2 players to compensate for his lack of legs, 1 cannot be enough as he's far too immobile for that.
 
Brightonian said:
Ah ok this makes your point a little clearer, and I agree. No-one's having a go at Scholes and Giggs, or at least I'm not. It's not their fault they're too old now. But having them in the team selection has been a problem.

I don't think it's about starting them in a midfield three, though. I think it's about not starting them any more. Based on the evidence of this season, Cleverley can now do anything Scholes can do, and a lot more besides. Even Scholes' diagonal pass to the winger has been woefully inconsistent.
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Don't agree at all. I'd rather see Cleverley and Anderson get much more game time but Scholes and Giggs still have plenty more to offer and have shown that on occasion this season.

Giggs proved he's still capable of playing in CM in the Chelsea cup game alone.

As I said, the problem isn't just down to the players. They're older now. It happens. The problem is not managing them correctly by means of playing them alongside someone that just doesn't suit.
 
#Carl said:
Don't agree at all. I'd rather see Cleverley and Anderson get much more game time but Scholes and Giggs still have plenty more to offer and have shown that on occasion this season.

Giggs proved he's still capable of playing in CM in the Chelsea cup game alone.

As I said, the problem isn't just down to the players. They're older now. It happens. The problem is not managing them correctly by means of playing them alongside someone that just doesn't suit.
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So you want Giggs/ Scholes to play alongside players we don't have ie a box to box who can defend, attack and run all day long.

Giggs / Scholes do not add that much to the team for us to shoehorn them in.

Build a formation which brings out the best in our players and those that are in form.

Our wingers are in poor form yet fergie persists with 442. Scholes / giggs cant play as part of a midfield two yet Fergie persists with 442. We have three midfielders in decent form - Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson but Fergie persists with 442.
 
#Carl, it's not a matter of capabilities, it's a matter of balance. Anytime we've played Scholes and Giggs in a midfield 2, we've been defensively shambolic and more often than not we struggle to build our rhythm in games. FFS, they're 38 & 39 respectively. They've experienced a considerable amount of deterioration in their ability to get up and down effectively to perform in a midfield two.

Everyone knows they can still offer something but you have to admit, we're not using them correctly based on how disjointed we are and the gaps we leave for the opposition to exploit. Yes the wingers could do better but ultimately we're not doing ourselves any good when we play with such imbalanced midfield combinations. This really shouldn't be so hard to see.
 
Plato said:
#Carl, it's not a matter of capabilities, it's a matter of balance. Anytime we've played Scholes and Giggs in a midfield 2, we've been defensively shambolic and more often than not we struggle to build our rhythm in games. FFS, they're 38 & 39 respectively. They've experienced a considerable amount of deterioration in their ability to get up and down effectively to perform in a midfield two.

Everyone knows they can still offer something but you have to admit, we're not using them correctly based on how disjointed we are and the gaps we leave for the opposition to exploit. Yes the wingers could do better but ultimately we're not doing ourselves any good when we play with such imbalanced midfield combinations. This really shouldn't be so hard to see.
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I agree, we should see Scholes coming on for Anderson in the latter stages, not the other way around. I do not see SAF's logic whatsoever in choosing Giggs or Scholes to start over Ando or Clevs.
 
#Carl said:
Scholes and Giggs still have plenty more to offer and have shown that on occasion this season.
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Meanwhile, Cleverley and Anderson have shown how much they have to offer on the vast majority of occasions. Like you, I'm all for a three man midfield (and I count the diamond as one version of that, since the tip of the diamond is essentially just the number 10). But why choose players in that three whose weaknesses you have to carefully negate, when you could just choose midfielders who are fit, in form, and who only bring positives.

Scholes passes really well, but you have to put energetic midfielders next to him to make up for his lack of energy and movement. Cleverley passes really well, and has loads of energy and great movement. I know who I'd pick.
 
Plato said:
#Carl, it's not a matter of capabilities, it's a matter of balance. Anytime we've played Scholes and Giggs in a midfield 2, we've been defensively shambolic and more often than not we struggle to build our rhythm in games. FFS, they're 38 & 39 respectively. They've experienced a considerable amount of deterioration in their ability to get up and down effectively to perform in a midfield two.

Everyone knows they can still offer something but you have to admit, we're not using them correctly based on how disjointed we are and the gaps we leave for the opposition to exploit. Yes the wingers could do better but ultimately we're not doing ourselves any good when we play with such imbalanced midfield combinations. This really shouldn't be so hard to see.
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You're second paragraph is essentially my point. Both can still offer plenty but it's the way they're being used that's the problem. Not the players themselves.

Brightonian said:
Meanwhile, Cleverley and Anderson have shown how much they have to offer on the vast majority of occasions. Like you, I'm all for a three man midfield (and I count the diamond as one version of that, since the tip of the diamond is essentially just the number 10). But why choose players in that three whose weaknesses you have to carefully negate, when you could just choose midfielders who are fit, in form, and who only bring positives.

Scholes passes really well, but you have to put energetic midfielders next to him to make up for his lack of energy and movement. Cleverley passes really well, and has loads of energy and great movement. I know who I'd pick.
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I think we're pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet here to be honest. Pretty much...
 
apotheosis said:
I agree, we should see Scholes coming on for Anderson in the latter stages, not the other way around. I do not see SAF's logic whatsoever in choosing Giggs or Scholes to start over Ando or Clevs.
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Squad rotation....................
 
#Carl said:
I think we're pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet here to be honest. Pretty much...
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Except that you think they both have something to offer as part of the starting line-up, whereas I'd be happy if we didn't start either of them this season except through necessity. And honestly, I'd rather not see Giggs even come off the bench except possibly in FA cup matches. Basically I think they're done.
 
A Very good first half from Anderson, strong in the tackle, covered Rafael when required and has the ability to pass short and long...
 
Dont get injured, remain consistant and Anderson will be one of the 1st names on the teamsheet in the 2nd half of the season.

He has always been capable. Now is his best oppertunity.
 
Deserves to play next time around after that. Faded in the second half a bit but he was our best midfielder.
 
He was class today. Some of his passing was brilliant.
 
More than happy with Ando's contribution tonight. He showed some composure at times and ran at the opposition's defence, which is something so clearly lacking in our midfield of late.

There's still lots to work on, but plenty of positives tonight.
 
I think he's cemented a first team spot in the team for our next match, although the "take me off" plea at the 82nd minute was worrying.
 
Seriously needs to work on his fitness.
He stopped running off the ball a few minutes before he was finally taken off.

Had a very good game other than that.
 
Slevs said:
I think he's cemented a first team spot in the team for our next match, although the "take me off" plea at the 82nd minute was worrying.
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To be fair, the boy put in shedloads of work today. Hassling West Ham's midfielders and defenders, taking the ball under pressure, involved in some physical battles for the ball, getting up and down the pitch providing urgency anytime we attacked. He also tracked back very well today.

I think it's becoming clearer we're trying to build up his fitness and it's up to him to manage it better throughout games. He put in a good shift and was one of our top performers. Hopefully he can start to last 90 minutes as his absence showed once he was taken off. Delighted for the lad. Deserves to start again.
 
Once Cleverley came off he stepped up again, got tired, but he's getting there.
 
His lack of fitness I think is another reason as to why SAF has been managing his appearances so much. Who would've thought it?
 
prateik said:
Seriously needs to work on his fitness.
He stopped running off the ball a few minutes before he was finally taken off.

Had a very good game other than that.
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There are those who have proposed we are gradually getting his fitness up and he's at the stage where he needs game time. He's lasting longer in each of his starts while still exerting the same amount of energy. I dont think it needs serious work. Looks to be coming along quite nicely if this is indeed the plan from the management.
 
If he can put in 70-80mins im happy enough for now. We should have enough on the bench to cover the last 10-20mins.
 
Delighted for him after that performance. I was terrified that he'd just sort of slump into mediocrity tonight after some promising performances previously, but he played well.
 
We complain about his fitness, but there are plenty of truly class footballers that only manage parts of a match. Ozil and Van der Vaart come to mind.

Ando on form for 70 minutes is a starting choice for me.
 
Beachryan said:
We complain about his fitness, but there are plenty of truly class footballers that only manage parts of a match. Ozil and Van der Vaart come to mind.

Ando on form for 70 minutes is a starting choice for me.
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Yup
 
When he plays that well I think it's fine enough even if he lasts just the 75-80 mins.
 
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