Anderson

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RedRover said:
Where has that been suggested?

Clearly he is "fit" in general terms. He wouldnt get a kick at all otherwise. But its all about levels and he clearly isnt fit enough as it stands.

Ryan Giggs is a great example - same playing weight as he was over 20 years ago, still has the legs to get through a game, albeit not every week.

Clearly he is a naturally fit and athletic person - but there is no doubt he makes a lot of sacrifices to maintain his fitness. He'll have changed his training and will certainly watch what he eats.

Here is a young lad who maybe hasnt had to put the graft in before, because his talent and youth have got him through. It's now patently obvious it wont get him through a game, and has been for some time. If I were him I'd be doing everything I could to get as fit as I could be.

Fact is, there is a clear problem for a Brazilian international in his mid 20's who cant get through 90 minutes. Be it injury or fitness - its largely irrelevant, it still makes him half the player he might have been.

What I dont get is people going head over heels into all sorts of weird and wonderful explanations and excuses. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'll assume its a duck. When someone is overweight and unfit it generally means he's not working hard enough.
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I fully accept that he could be working harder but I just don't see that the club would be happy to let Anderson work at the levels people are making out and continue to play him on a regular basis while having such a fitness record.
 
golden_blunder said:
so, you're arguing that Fergie would keep him on, even if Anderson wasnt pulling his weight in training etc, simply because he paid a big fee?

havent you watched Ferguson for the last 20 years? If someone doesnt pull their weight, or have "no hunger" then they are bombed out, regardless of who they are.
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Im arguing that with a young player, one who has come from another country where perhaps the work ethic is not the primary issue in football the club will invest what time and effor it can in trying to develop the lad both as a player and a person.

I believe that's especially the case when Fergie has risked a huge sum of money on him, never mind what he's picked up in wages over the last 5 or so years.

What I don't believe is that a club would sign a young lad, see he's perhaps not putting his all in and bomb him out straight away. He'd be given a chance to improve, change and learn and if he doesnt do so - he'd be gone.

Its also the case that any lack of effort in training or sticking to diet etc, might have manifested itself over the last couple of years whilst he's been injured.
 
100 said:
I fully accept that he could be working harder but I just don't see that the club would be happy to let Anderson work at the levels people are making out and continue to play him on a regular basis while having such a fitness record.
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They have invested a lot of time and money into him, and will of course be desperate for him to make the grade.

We also have very few other candidates to step into his position. This is why he plays - they obviously hope he'll come good.

The question is whether once Scholes and Giggs step aside they'll be willing to give him the responsibility of filling their boots. It would be great if he can but I have my doubts as to whether he'll get the chance.
 
RedRover said:
They have invested a lot of time and money into him, and will of course be desperate for him to make the grade.

We also have very few other candidates to step into his position. This is why he plays - they obviously hope he'll come good.

The question is whether once Scholes and Giggs step aside they'll be willing to give him the responsibility of filling their boots. It would be great if he can but I have my doubts as to whether he'll get the chance.
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He's way too big to fit in them already.
 
Quite surprised it's taken this long for people to get on "well they said he was laziest in training, so that proves why he lacks the stamina to finish games and proof that he is undisciplined"

Maybe that is the reason he does tire towards the end of games but, I find it more likely in a setup at United that answer simply means who is the player that doesn't give 100% when it comes to the drills they do with the ball.

For stamina work, I very much doubt he is able to get away with being lazy - that work is regimented/monitored heavily by the coaching staff and if he indeed was lazy that he'd be getting anywhere near the squad.

Even giving some credence to the silly argument that well we've kept him because of his fee, that doesn't mean he needs to be included in match day 18 squads. If Fergie can bench his star player last year for a crucial game, you think he'd have any qualms of keeping Ando out if he was being lazy and not showing the right attitude/fitness levels?

Yes, Anderson cannot play a full 90 right now but, I don't for a second think it's because he lacks discipline or desire.To me it's obvious the few times he has been given a run of games he has shown to get to the level to play full matches - but, right now when he plays and odd game here and there, he is going to continue to struggle to complete matches.

And those that are calling him overweight - other than well he looks overweight so he is overweight, can you cite any actual figures to back it up?
 
You seem to have a vast knowledge of our club IAR. Are you a coach?
 
Sources?

(not a trick, I've just never heard any of this before)
 
MrMojo said:
Well that's his point, we've now possibly reached that crossroads. Two years left on his contract I'm told, would anyone give him another three?
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That's it for me.

They can probably sell him now for a decent sum and write it of as a bad job. if not they need to get him tied down to another deal.

The argument people seem to be running is "he must be good in training or Fergie would have bombed him out" - to counter the suggestion that Fergie is about to do just that.
 
Shimo said:
Quite surprised it's taken this long for people to get on "well they said he was laziest in training, so that proves why he lacks the stamina to finish games and proof that he is undisciplined"

Maybe that is the reason he does tire towards the end of games but, I find it more likely in a setup at United that answer simply means who is the player that doesn't give 100% when it comes to the drills they do with the ball.

For stamina work, I very much doubt he is able to get away with being lazy - that work is regimented/monitored heavily by the coaching staff and if he indeed was lazy that he'd be getting anywhere near the squad.

Even giving some credence to the silly argument that well we've kept him because of his fee, that doesn't mean he needs to be included in match day 18 squads. If Fergie can bench his star player last year for a crucial game, you think he'd have any qualms of keeping Ando out if he was being lazy and not showing the right attitude/fitness levels?

Yes, Anderson cannot play a full 90 right now but, I don't for a second think it's because he lacks discipline or desire.To me it's obvious the few times he has been given a run of games he has shown to get to the level to play full matches - but, right now when he plays and odd game here and there, he is going to continue to struggle to complete matches.

And those that are calling him overweight - other than well he looks overweight so he is overweight, can you cite any actual figures to back it up?
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I tend to believe if someone looks fat, they usually are fat. Although, people need to get away from whether he's "fat" compared to the man in the street.

It's been suggested to me by a PT that the average PL has body fat of around 11%. Most are much lower during the season. I know a little bit about this sort of thing and measure my body fat regularly - I doubt very much that he is anywhere near 11%.

I can also tell you to keep body fat low you need to eat right. I train pretty much the same as I did, but I've changed my diet over the last 6 - 8 months and have made huge leaps forward simply by eating the right things at broadly the right time. Its not rocket science, but does take discipline.

As said above its all about levels. The extra few pounds might mean nothing to me and you but football is all about the finest margins. A footballer's body is put under all kinds of pressure over a season, so anything slightly off can have an effect.
 
RedRover said:
I tend to believe if someone looks fat, they usually are fat. Although, people need to get away from whether he's "fat" compared to the man in the street.

It's been suggested to me by a PT that the average PL has body fat of around 11%. Most are much lower during the season. I know a little bit about this sort of thing and measure my body fat regularly - I doubt very much that he is anywhere near 11%.

I can also tell you to keep body fat low you need to eat right. I train pretty much the same as I did, but I've changed my diet over the last 6 - 8 months and have made huge leaps forward simply by eating the right things at broadly the right time. Its not rocket science, but does take discipline.

As said above its all about levels. The extra few pounds might mean nothing to me and you but football is all about the finest margins. A footballer's body is put under all kinds of pressure over a season, so anything slightly off can have an effect.
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Are you able to see through his clothes or something? Any pics of him we've seen without his shirt haven't shown signs of fat. So he is bigger than a slim Giggs but, bigger doesn't mean fat.

I am under weight and skinny for my height but, I also know because I don't work out I have excess fat. Simply looking at me clothed wouldn't tell you I was carrying fat. Similarly looking at Anderson just because he is bigger than some of the slimmer players doesn't mean he is carrying excess fat.

For someone that trains, surely you should know that.
 
MrMojo said:
Well that's his point, we've now possibly reached that crossroads. Two years left on his contract I'm told, would anyone give him another three?
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Not exactly, I think if SAF wanted to get rid of he could have done it at least two years ago, his transfer fee wouldn't even have mattered then.
SAF is not known for sentimentality towards players he didn't produce from the youth system (Scholes, Giggs etc etc) and even then it has its limits (Beckham).
 
Shimo said:
Are you able to see through his clothes or something? Any pics of him we've seen without his shirt haven't shown signs of fat. So he is bigger than a slim Giggs but, bigger doesn't mean fat.

I am under weight and skinny for my height but, I also know because I don't work out I have excess fat. Simply looking at me clothed wouldn't tell you I was carrying fat. Similarly looking at Anderson just because he is bigger than some of the slimmer players doesn't mean he is carrying excess fat.

For someone that trains, surely you should know that.
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He has a double chin and a fat arse. He didn't used to look like be does now. I can make a relatively accurate suggestion that he's carrying a bit more weight than he was.

I'm evidently not going to tell you I can be totally accurate, it's just my opinion, but in my experience, knowing a bit about these things I don't think his body fat levels are as low as other players. He's running about in shorts and a tshirt on the tv so you can make a judgment.
 
Regardless of body fat % or whatever it is clear that Anderdon does have a more chunky frame and physique

Obviously there is a link between physique - fitness - stamina - likelihood of injury

No one really knows and I do find it hard to believe that Fergie would put up with a player who showed such a lack of discipline

At the same time I am starting to find it hard to believe how Fergie has kept a player who is unable to play a game for 90 minutes without running out of steam for the last 10 or so

Jan Molby got away with it but he didn't cover ground like Anderson but relied on his passing range to orchestrate things
 
RedRover said:
That's it for me.

They can probably sell him now for a decent sum and write it of as a bad job. if not they need to get him tied down to another deal.
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RedRover said:
I tend to believe if someone looks fat, they usually are fat.

It's been suggested to me by a PT that the average PL has body fat of around 11%. Most are much lower during the season. I know a little bit about this sort of thing and measure my body fat regularly - I doubt very much that he is anywhere near 11%.
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RedRover said:
He has a double chin and a fat arse.
it's just my opinion, but in my experience, knowing a bit about these things I don't think his body fat levels are as low as other players. He's running about in shorts and a tshirt on the tv so you can make a judgment.
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Are you sure you're a United supporter and not a diet specialist? I respect your opinion if you think he's not good enough to play for United but this embarrassing drivel is below normal teenage caf standard.
 
RedRover said:
He has a double chin and a fat arse. He didn't used to look like be does now. I can make a relatively accurate suggestion that he's carrying a bit more weight than he was.

I'm evidently not going to tell you I can be totally accurate, it's just my opinion, but in my experience, knowing a bit about these things I don't think his body fat levels are as low as other players. He's running about in shorts and a tshirt on the tv so you can make a judgment.
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messi has a double chin.

yes, ando has an arse like a cement mixer but so does serena williams and she's cut to feck.

But yeah, i do think our ando is a bit of a michelin man.
 
buckooo1978 said:
Regardless of body fat % or whatever it is clear that Anderdon does have a more chunky frame and physique

Obviously there is a link between physique - fitness - stamina - likelihood of injury

No one really knows and I do find it hard to believe that Fergie would put up with a player who showed such a lack of discipline

At the same time I am starting to find it hard to believe how Fergie has kept a player who is unable to play a game for 90 minutes without running out of steam for the last 10 or so

Jan Molby got away with it but he didn't cover ground like Anderson but relied on his passing range to orchestrate things
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don't think molby would've gotten away with it if he played post 2000.
 
Hard to believe how much you're opinion on Anderson has evolved over the season I'm always right maybe I was correct a few months ago.
 
There have been a few reasons he hasn't hit the heights...obviously not all his fault.

The fact remains he shows no consistency.He's been here long enough and never proved to be performer week in and week out.

Folk he thinks he's a 'miles better footballer' than Cleverley have taken a large whack to the head. It's laughable.

It's a shame...but he wants replacing.
 
thinking positively, the only chance for him to fulfil his predicted talents is that he is on a "Darren Fletcher" type development curve. If it happens (Needs to happen about right now), great.

However, if it doesn't, as many have mentioned, with only Cleverly, Carraick and a 40 year old Ryan Giggs as MF certainties next year, we simply need the cover. Im more than OK if Anderson becomes the ultimate squad players a la JOS and JS Park. If he is happy with that too. We dont ever want a squad with 18 world class players - that Galatico model just does not work.
 
7even said:
Are you sure you're a United supporter and not a diet specialist? I respect your opinion if you think he's not good enough to play for United but this embarrassing drivel is below normal teenage caf standard.
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Someone asked a question regarding actual figures and answered with something I was told by a PT, himself an ex semi pro player, and a close pal of a current Championship player. I half answered because I thought people might find it interesting.

I'm no expert, just someone who enjoys training and who has picked up a fair bit of knowledge over the years through trial and error.

My main point to be honest was that its not that difficult to keep yourself lean and fit when you train regularly, just requires a bit of discipline. I therefore don't have a lot if sympathy where players have fitness issues owing to not doing what they should be.
 
VoetbalWizard said:
messi has a double chin.

yes, ando has an arse like a cement mixer but so does serena williams and she's cut to feck.

But yeah, i do think our ando is a bit of a michelin man.
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Perhaps - but he covers plenty of ground and plays 50 games a season.

When a player looks a bit chunky, and then can't last 90 minutes or string a decent run of games together, it's fair to assume he's needs to knuckle down a bit.

Maybe his injuries are the main cause - but I reckon getting a few pounds off wouldn't do any harm in keeping the niggles at bay.
 
The problem is that Anderson rarely makes himself selectable every week, so he's neither a reliable starting player, or a reliable squad player. The most annoying is is that outside of Scholes, he is probably our most gifted central midfielder on paper. I really would love to see him make it here, but seeing as he's not even cutting it as a squad player at the moment, how likely is it?
 
Lawman said:
Hard to believe how much you're opinion on Anderson has evolved over the season I'm always right maybe I was correct a few months ago.
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Still hasn't changed since our first discussion. I still fully believe a fit Anderson for a couple of seasons would be a superstar.
 
I'm always right said:
Still hasn't changed since our first discussion. I still fully believe a fit Anderson for a couple of seasons would be a superstar.
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I still fully believe a fit Anderson for a couple of seasons would be a miracle.
 
I'm always right said:
Still hasn't changed since our first discussion. I still fully believe a fit Anderson for a couple of seasons would be a superstar.
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Somebody posted that he'd only missed 10 games through injury this season. Not much more than the average amount of injured timeout you'd expect for a player. So the usual hurdle hasn't really been there this season and he's still been a bit average. Makes me wonder if the injuries have become a bit of a phantom excuse.
 
This thread is just the same people repeating the same stuff over and over again. Men arguing over if a another man is fat. I've done it too. What are we coming to?
 
I'm always right said:
Still hasn't changed since our first discussion. I still fully believe a fit Anderson for a couple of seasons would be a superstar.
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Do you not think the repeated injuries have stalled his development to a point where he'll never be able to reach that standard? Anderson hasn't developed at all in his time here, can he really turn into a superstar in the years he'll have left? I know he's not ancient or anything but you'd hardly think he's gonna be playing far into his thirties anyway. That's a relatively small window for him to improve so drastically.

Guess we'll never really know as it'd take a miracle for him to stay fit for even a couple of seasons.
 
I'm sure all his injuries mean he will never realise his full potential. But he could still become a very, very good player. Though I think his injury problems will continue to be honest, he'll never come close to the player he should have been.
 
MrMojo said:
Somebody posted that he'd only missed 10 games through injury this season. Not much more than the average amount of injured timeout you'd expect for a player. So the usual hurdle hasn't really been there this season and he's still been a bit average.
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Well actually, I thought (along with many others on here) that he was way above average this season before his injury in December. More of a goal threat, better choice of passing, creating too finally. I believe SAF was easing him into the season too because of his injury record, all was going very well. But... as I also said back in December (which is why Lawman is chatting rubbish again), he needed to come back from that injury:

a) quickly
b) straight back into form

I said then that if he didn't do that I may well have to give in to the idea that injuries may well stop him ever reaching the heights I think he can, too often it's the same story unfortunately, he gets into great form and then injury strikes and that derails his season. It's a real shame.
 
sullydnl said:
Do you not think the repeated injuries have stalled his development to a point where he'll never be able to reach that standard?
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No, cause I still think he showed on a fair few occasions earlier this season that when he hits form he's a cracking player, I think if he'd gone the full season without a derailing injury he'd have improved massively.

But I am now pretty resigned to the fact that he'll probably never be able to reach that standard because it's unfortunately always the same for him, just as he hits his top form he gets injured and doesn't return to form until too long after his return.
 
I think it's a lot more than just injuries, it's far too simplistic to say that's the case.

Lots of players have struggled with injuries in their careers yet when fit, still been excellent and showed their potential.
 
It depends how inclusive your definition of "injuries" is.

He gets lots of injuries. And he struggles to regain form after them. You could call that two problems: injuries and inconsistency. But if you consider his inconsistency to be like an injury hangover, you can stick it under the same umbrella. Simplistic? Maybe, but I find people often over-complicate things.

Let's put it this way. If, in a parallel universe, Anderson had developed without constantly getting injuries, I think he would have been far more consistent with his form. For one thing it would help his motivation, which must get knocked when he knows as well as we do what is coming as soon as he starts playing well. I have no real evidence or reason to think this, of course. But I do.
 
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