I don't know whether that's written as a positive or pejorative, but I'm now having visions of Martial peddling his close control wares in some kind of giant Moroccan souk to unsuspecting tourists.Are Martial's problems to do with the level of the team or independent of them?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I don't know whether that's written as a positive or pejorative, but I'm now having visions of Martial peddling his close control wares in some kind of giant Moroccan souk to unsuspecting tourists.The best way to understand the problem with Martial is to ask ourselves 2 important questions.
Firstly, if Rashford didn't emerge from our youth system, where would Martial be playing?
Secondly, imagine we have only Martial after selling Lukaku, would you buy a number 9 and play Martial as a left forward, or would you sign a left forward and make Martial the number 9?
To me, the answer is very simple, Martial is not a pure number 9. His best position is either a left forward or if we go back to the times where we played with a front 2, Martial would play slightly deeper of the 2. It's just our bad luck that 2 of our best attackers play the same position.
Firstly, if Rashford didn't emerge from our youth system, where would Martial be playing?
Secondly, imagine we have only Martial after selling Lukaku, would you buy a number 9 and play Martial as a left forward, or would you sign a left forward and make Martial the number 9?
To me, the answer is very simple, Martial is not a pure number 9. His best position is either a left forward or if we go back to the times where we played with a front 2, Martial would play slightly deeper of the 2. It's just our bad luck that 2 of our best attackers play the same position.
Well, Lukaku has scored 20 goals for Inter so far....
I think he is just a lazy lad who hates putting in a shift when necessary. I saw the whole game against Wolves and Bruno had the same fate as that of Pogba. Whenever he received the ball, he looked up and saw nobody running forward. Not only was that tiring for him but also for us to watch. This is because we have never managed to dribble past a player convincingly under the last few managers and i feel this needs to be addressed. We do not make space for other players to move into, we do not make fake runs or our players don't recognize a fake run. Martial is one of those players who cannot manage his game at high tempo, he loses the ball in tense situations, sometimes he loses it under no pressure. He often takes a turn and loses the ball then and there. It was told he likes the ball at his feet but i'm not convinced he does great with the ball at his feet either and without it, he's completely devoid of any movement on the pitch. It is really frustrating to watch.
Martial’s best position is always the one he’s not currently playing in.
People comparing his output to Lukaku should compare it based on chances. Not on goals. And Martial not being in the box is due to him dropping deep to help the build-up play... This worked well with Rashford in the team, given that this would make space for him.
Watching him is one of the most frustrating things recently.. The lack of movement up front vs Wolves was shocking. You could even see Fernandes looking a bit perplexed when looking for a forward pass to play, that no one seemed willing to make themselves available.
And i think this is Martial's major flaw, He just isnt bothered alot of the time. Some people saying he doesnt bother making runs because he knows no one will find him. Im not buying this. Anyone that has played football at any level knows that the best teams are the ones that are always moving, making the other team run after you everywhere. pointing to the space and running in behind. Even some of the better strikers of recent times, the likes of Chicarito or Vardy, they always pointing to the free space and making the run into it, therefore creating space and perhaps a chance. They are dragging defenders all over the place.
The way Martial plays up front by his self must be a defenders dream. As we've seen in the past hes great running with the ball at defenders, usually from the left. And he always wants the ball to his feet so he can run with it. But when your doing this up top by yourself, wanting the ball to your feet with your back to goal leaves you a harder job at no9. And as we seen at the weekend almost every time he was closed down very quickly, or just fell over. His hold up play isnt anywhere near the level to be recieving the ball and playing it on. he's just not the no9 he wants to be this season. His work rate is awful to be considered a target man.
If thats where you want to play, put in a shift man. At least try and run into free space, make yourself available for a pass. I mean sometimes he looks like hes marking a defender up front! Its mad we dont really have any other natural striker
If he's not up to it, he shouldnt up top. And i dont think he is. If Ighalo shows any promise id drop James & play Tony out left.
And i think this is Martial's major flaw, He just isnt bothered alot of the time. Some people saying he doesnt bother making runs because he knows no one will find him. Im not buying this. Anyone that has played football at any level knows that the best teams are the ones that are always moving, making the other team run after you everywhere. pointing to the space and running in behind. Even some of the better strikers of recent times, the likes of Chicarito or Vardy, they always pointing to the free space and making the run into it, therefore creating space and perhaps a chance. They are dragging defenders all over the place.
The way Martial plays up front by his self must be a defenders dream. As we've seen in the past hes great running with the ball at defenders, usually from the left. And he always wants the ball to his feet so he can run with it. But when your doing this up top by yourself, wanting the ball to your feet with your back to goal leaves you a harder job at no9. And as we seen at the weekend almost every time he was closed down very quickly, or just fell over. His hold up play isnt anywhere near the level to be recieving the ball and playing it on. he's just not the no9 he wants to be this season. His work rate is awful to be considered a target man.
If thats where you want to play, put in a shift man. At least try and run into free space, make yourself available for a pass. I mean sometimes he looks like hes marking a defender up front! Its mad we dont really have any other natural striker
If he's not up to it, he shouldnt up top. And i dont think he is. If Ighalo shows any promise id drop James & play Tony out left.
Agree, bad move on that contract, he's got I think rest of the season to prove it , if Ingalo scores goals it's realy going to show his lack of ability as striker, can see him moving back to France, not a top team either, or he's just going to sit out his big money contract, unless he wants to go . There's a few realy who should be moved in not just him. Andreas, Lingard as well.
I don't really know what we do with him. Martial has taken the spot on the left hand side for now and the foreseeable future. As a striker, he lacks the off the ball movement to ever be effective, in addition to this, he constantly drifts out of position making the central area empty. Finally, he lacks the instinct to position himself in the right areas to cause havoc in the opposition defence. He just doesn't have that striker's instinct so i do not think the role in any capacity suits him. One area that I thought he could be beneficial to United as a no.9 was in his hold up play, as he has decent close control, but in games where he is not at his best, he cannot do this consistently enough either. I would force an experimentation with him playing on the right hand side and keep that going for a few weeks when Rashford returns. If we find ourselves out of the top 4 mix, I would consider giving Greenwood the playing time to grow into the starting role and see what happens, using Ighalo to supplement him in areas he is currently lacking. Martial needs to improve or at least show us a reason he should start for us. He is not a player we can afford to just keep if he flops, his salary dictates that he should be one of our key players. If Martial flops between now and the end of the season, he should be sold, even if the final selling price does not meet our expectations. It may not be good for short term business, but that money should be used to get a player that would actually be useful to us.
I agree. I still feel Andreas as a squad player could be useful given his verstality, particularly in capital one and Fa cup games to help the younger players out. Lingard needs to leave. His influence alone is dreadful, not to even start talking of his inability to play anywhere near premier league level. Jones is another one that should be shown the door. He is not fit enough to be relied on from the bench and I prefer bailly ( even though also injury prone) as a 4th choice back up. I would use Lindelof in rotation and give Tuanzebe the chance to start alongside Macguire. If Ole is smart we make that move going into the end of the season so we can analyze whether there is also a need for a new centre back. There is a decision to be made in goal, personally I do not know which way to go with this, but letting DDG go would alleviate us of his huge wages and bring in funds for the club to invest in other areas without worrying about the need for a replacement. Selling Henderson may also provide this for us, but speaking economically, selling De Gea may be the best option given his lack of form and the miniscule drop to Henderson. Hopefully Real Madrid or PSG are still interested. Finally, I would sell Pogba. He has not been active at all this season and given that his contract expires at the end of next season, this is the time to make the move. We need the money for him to get another midfielder and we cannot afford to have another season of being missing and having this level of uncertainty clouding over the club. Selling him would signify the end of the poor galactico transfer policy and would allow us to have a decent wage structure without the level of grumblings within the squad that we have heard of since 2017. Selling Pogba allows us to get a player suitable to the position rather than one who is unwilling to play that deep. Pogba may be world class, but his lack of consistency, attitude and failure to adapt to us and the league means that his influence is really limited here. Juventus may be an option if we want an immediate return on players, PSG have the funds and Real Madrid are at the end of their midfield cycle and may feel the need to sign a player with Pogba's skill. This summer could be the one where we finally have the players to match the ambitions and suitability of our squad.
You should listen to what many others have said as martial. He is not a poacher and never will be. So the others and especially the midfield needs to give the ball to him in areas that HE wants the ball and not into spaces they want the ball to go.
Without that there is no point in blaming. You try to make the player play the best way he can play and not try things he can't do.
Without that there is no point in blaming. You try to make the player play the best way he can play and not try things he can't do.
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Strange, when he was poor at left forward people were saying he should be a 9. Odd that.
Can't realy judge until the service is consistent. Players need to be energized physically and mentally. You saw him coming out speaking after we signed Bruno but we need more clearly. We need to create the belief in the squad because no player like Martial, De Gea wants to fight for the Europa league. We need to show ambition and then people have no real excuse. It's not his fault we have to play him week in week out because the squad isn't there. The consistancy isn't there and when we talk about the energy...supporters are not fools but neither are the players when it comes to knowing the squads threadbare. As a footballer, you have to ask what is going on?...We've done ok at times but 9/10 we have little to come off the bench to change the game and we know it and that comes after the fact, we struggle to break down teams. We over play it at times. Sometimes United are very comfortable to play against. The league is harder at the minute but the players need aggression and to try to boss things but we're very timid at times
Only thing negative about him playing on the left is his defending. We expect him to do defend the fullback which he is too lazy to do. He is not good enough to be afforded that luxury as well.
I think, eventually he will end up being a back up to Rashford and our new striker. Don't know if he will be satisfied with that.
I think you all should read what Danny Murphy's had to say on Martial. I think he is spot on.
A mixture of both. He also has 1 goal in 18 appearances for France and their team is stacked
His constant dribbling to a corner and poor passing was what people were mainly complaining about.
Constantly waiting for the ball to come to his feet and not making runs is what I remember people complaining about. His link up play, 1-2s with other players are usually good.
Anyways with Ighalo in now, I'm sure we will see Martial on the left side again.
Honestly if he just made runs in behind, he’d be fine. His finishing is good (not great), his touch is very good and he can hold up play when he wants to. He just doesn’t have a clue where a striker should be - it can be taught but I’ve got to imagine people behind the scenes are telling him this and telling him to work harder off the ball but perhaps he’s just not very bright.
That stat is misleading, first these games are mainly not with the starters and most of them aren't as a starter. And most of them are before the team became stacked.
I think he’s just highly inconsistent, and lacks the necessary grit and determination to really hit the heights he’s capable of. He’s always been like that and probably always will be.
It’s a shame as he’s a fantastic player when he’s firing and full of confidence.
It’s a shame as he’s a fantastic player when he’s firing and full of confidence.
He's a crap striker. Maybe the team can blame its form on him rather than blaming his form on the team.
Even if a striker doesn't score, he should be making it difficult for the opposition defenders.
Even if a striker doesn't score, he should be making it difficult for the opposition defenders.
If he had the fire of a Robbie Keane, he'd probably be a fantastic player. He just doesn't have that in him.
Too expensive to be a back up. If he doesn't start he won't work for us.
4 1/2 years isn't enough time to judge him?
He's part of the reason the service is not great, because he's not in the box enough of the time. He tends to drift to the flanks or come too deep to receive the ball, leaving an empty space. There are soooo many cases of where Dan James and Wan Bissaka have attempted crosses and noone was at the end of it. On Saturday, there were times where Mata and Fernandes got the ball into Martial's fit and he didn't have the strength or balance to make use of the situation. Being a striker for any team is difficult, it requires a lot of running, strength and control, particularly if you are the lone striker. It's ok if he cannot play this role for us. My concern is that the right hand side has been open for almost 6 seasons, yet he has not even tried to develop the abilities to play in that position. Rashford has played well enough to lock down that position completely, this means that Martial is in a spot where he either learns to do the hard work of a lone striker, adapt to play on the right flank ( Ole should force this option), be on the bench or force a move elsewhere.
The problem is that 4 and 12 years ago, we bought a striker with little experience and still developing, we quickly decided to use him as winger because we lost faith in the young player that we bought for the wing. So for me the issue is what are we judging, the player or our inablity to develop properly players?
Maybe one day soon, we'll have a top player who boosts everyone's performance round him.
All out top guys seem to need x, y and z to perform.
All out top guys seem to need x, y and z to perform.
Think for some players the penny drops a little later than others. Take Rashford for example, he has improved his game so much by doing the simple things really well, and knowing how he can impact the game most efficiently.
For Martial, it feels like I'm watching a player who lacks a degree of motivation, but is also unsure as to exactly his role in the team. He's also clearly a players who needs other creative forces around him.
For those who say he's useless, or simply not that good, do you really think that or is it more recent performances driving that, because I would hate to be a forward in our current team, with our without Rashford.
Take for example, Salah, De Bruyne and van Dijk, the three best players in the league at the moment. At 23, both Salah and De Bruyne left the Prem as failures and careers nowhere near as impressive as the numbers Martial has produced at the same age (I would imagine, I admit I'm guessing a little here). Similarly, Van Dijk was nowhere near the force he is now. Different players mature differently.
What I'm trying to say is that Martial in the right team, with the right manager and the proper motivation has the talent to be much better than what he's showing now. He can be frustrating but I've seen enough over the last 3/4 years to believe there's a top player in there, and in the right position and the right set up could be an important player for us.
For Martial, it feels like I'm watching a player who lacks a degree of motivation, but is also unsure as to exactly his role in the team. He's also clearly a players who needs other creative forces around him.
For those who say he's useless, or simply not that good, do you really think that or is it more recent performances driving that, because I would hate to be a forward in our current team, with our without Rashford.
Take for example, Salah, De Bruyne and van Dijk, the three best players in the league at the moment. At 23, both Salah and De Bruyne left the Prem as failures and careers nowhere near as impressive as the numbers Martial has produced at the same age (I would imagine, I admit I'm guessing a little here). Similarly, Van Dijk was nowhere near the force he is now. Different players mature differently.
What I'm trying to say is that Martial in the right team, with the right manager and the proper motivation has the talent to be much better than what he's showing now. He can be frustrating but I've seen enough over the last 3/4 years to believe there's a top player in there, and in the right position and the right set up could be an important player for us.
I think a few of our players get away with this. It almost feels like they have to be spoonfed the ball in the right positions and at the right time to be able to do anything in possession. If you watch some of our older games, you would notice that individually those players found themselves in difficult situations sometimes on the ball. They were able to use their agility and skill to keep hold of possession and give themselves an advantage. Passes were hardly ever underhit and the first touch of those players were usually on point, even in difficult situations. Today we have players in the front 6 who can't control anything if it has a little bit of pressure. Their anticipation of space and positioning is poor. We even have a centre back than loses more aerial duels than he wins. Our players are not held as accountable as they ought to.
Both Martial and Rashford have been part of our floundering attack since 2015-2016. We have been exceptional poor in creating chances during that period. This can be evidenced by the fact that we have consistently had less than 5 shots on target every season since their arrival, a minimum of 5 is what is needed to legitimately challenge for the league. In most teams, the attack is judged as being responsible for the creativity and chance creation of the team. At United for some reason, the managers, midfield, defence and everything else has been blamed for our abysmal attacking performances. Rashford has stepped up his game this season, but the fact remains that for more than 4 seasons, the individual quality and potential of our attack has consistently been praised, yet with no result on the pitch. Neither Martial, Rashford or Lingard had previously had consistent success at any point of their careers prior to their arrival at united, in which there have been morsels of good form accompanied by large patches of terrible performances. Rashford has turned the corner this season, his hard work, determination and will to make things happen has led to this. Lingard and Martial on the other hand have remained inconsistent to poor. At some point people have to hold the attack responsible. It's not like united never have the ball in the opposition's final third. For the most part this season, we have lost the games in which this is the case. The issue we have actually had is that our attack, not the midfield or the fullbacks, have been unable to consistently create chances for themselves due to their individual lack of quality; not the manager, the midfield or the defence. Our goal in the summer should be to sign a new right winger and striker. That alone tells you about the lack of quality we have had in the attack over the years.
It's the past few seasons, not games. 5 good games out of 50 a year is not good enough. People never hold him accountable for his lack of creativity, yet he never finds the space or gets in the right positions to be a good goalscorer. Being able to dribble on one foot without any consistent end product, needing it to be from on specific position on the pitch is not going to consistently create the amount of chances that we need from either flank or striker. Being able to control 2 out of 10 balls to feet is not going to bring others into more attacking positions.
For me, I have always felt people look at a few specific things that he does and declare him a star without giving any attention to the other areas of his game where he is severely lacking. For now, all he is is a player that has tight dribbling ability with the use of his right foot cutting inside. He can also finish to an acceptable degree, but he can't do this with his left foot and it also has to be in a position where he is given the time and space to open up his right foot. He cannot take advantage of this dribbling ability because he does not have the awareness or determination to move off the ball and has no other option when he does dribble because he lacks the vision and technique to make the right pass. His game is flashy and the qualities he has are obvious to see, but what most people fail to see is that he lacks the tools to make his skills consistently effective.
Martial is not the same player as a Jiminez or a Chris Wood, though. Think back to Ole's first game at Cardiff and Martial's goal, it was unbelievable 1 and 2 touch stuff. Now would your traditional target man, like Wood or Jiminez, be able to do that? Not a chance. He's just not that type of player. He's a completely different player when Pobga is playing, as with Rashford, and he needs that. He's not a poacher or a lone striker, so it's unfair to criticise that part of his game when it's clearly not what he's good at. Is it not more of a failure of Ole and the coaching staff and recruitment to start the season with a forward that we clearly do not know how to get the best out of?
Martial may not be at the level that we hoped he would be, but he's clearly more productive and contributes more than any of our other players in terms of goals and chance creation, bar Rashford. Maybe we would see more goals if he didn't have to drop deep and get on the ball himself. And to be fair, when he does drop deep, do we ever see James, Pereira or basically any of our players go into the space he has occupied, or make any runs in behind? Our older generation of players were also clearly better, but the likes of RVN, Cole etc. played in teams with Beckham, Giggs, Scholes providing thr supply. You can't compare what we have now to that.
He can improve parts of his game, for sure. And I agree with you that he can do more, but I firmly believe that when you play up front and are starved of creativity and chances to score, it can really affect how you play. Just look at clips of Rashford prior to the international break. A mirror of how Martial looks at the moment.
If he made simple striker runs to the 6 yard line he’d have five more goals easily. It’s been infuriating watching crosses whizz across with no striker anywhere near where you’d expect a striker to be. He doesn’t strike me as one of the game’s great students, that’s for sure. But as part of a pacey dynamic frontline with Rashford and another he will score lots of goals.
He will only be a useful no 9 with a fast passed, fast passing team, which we are not, we have no player with an eye for the killerquick pass. He would do well at Liverpool with their system
You're not wrong in that he's not a targetman, not a striker either. However even when it comes to his usual move of driving from deep, he's not really consistent and the fact remains that in the attacking third he is still a bit one dimensional. He's 24, there should be signs of growth to his game. Last season, Rahsford starting becoming more successful in his dribbling and improved his passing and shooting accuracy. The year before that, he improved his balance on the ball. Martial for now has largely remained the same, how can we expect improvement. At 250 k a week, the cost of potential improvement that has shown no signs of taking place may be too much of a risk to trust. How can we expect him to improve as a striker or winger that would be capable of playing consistently for a title challenging team when he is not close to that level and has shown no signs of improving to get to that level.
Yeah the gap between himself and Rashford this season is startling, given that they both had kind of the same baseline for development. Kind of reminds me of the disparity that began to show between Ronaldo and Rooney, when it was clear that Ronaldo was going to become an all time great, when at the start Rooney looked like the one destined for the no. 1 spot.
I still feel like I have seen enough from Martial over the last few years to not give up on him yet. Maybe he's not our long term solution, but when I think of our rebuild, he should be a part of it. Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, a new ST and new RW, and that should hopefully be 5 players to cover 3 attacking positions. I think back to key points in his development, and I can remember when he was really beginning to show form under Mourinho. There was maybe a run of like 6/7 games of real good performances, and then Sanchez happened. I literally feel like Sanchez set him back 2 years in his development, even when Sanchez was playing trash he played ahead of Martial. One of Mourinho's many mistakes at this club in my opinion.
He has pace, he's a good finisher (in my opinion), great dribbler, good interplay and passing. He has a lot of really important attributes. One of the things that I always say sets him apart, and is really evident when surrounded by the likes of Lingard and Pereira, is his ability to play one-touch. Unfortunately, there's not many other in the squad who can also do it. For me, it's about unlocking all of the attributes that he has. That's down to himself, and to the coaching staff. If I felt it was purely down to his own lack of ambition, then I would be firmly in the "get him out" boat. As it is, I feel we have a coaching team with no idea how to coach attacking and fluid football, and it's been that way for the past 5 years. It's not just a case of Martial. Pogba, Mata, Mkhitaryan, Di Maria. Why do all of these talented footballers regress when they come to this club?
The way we play or intend to play, we need a striker like Richarlison to get the best out of Rashford, and ideally a similar player to Rashford on the right flank. Martial's greatest strength is his finishing, but his passing and positional play leave a lot to be desired.
I see what you are saying with the one touch, but sometimes I think it actually slows us down. It reminds me of Wenger's Arsenal of 2007-2014. A lot of tippy tappy passes, but no end product. Those one two's that him and Rashford are pulled off once in 10 tries. To add to that, the final ball simply isn't there. As a wide forwarded he made one key pass a game, with a one shot a game average. That's not good enough and clearly not effective enough. Sanchez was a mistake, but only because he turned out to be a different player than we expected. If Sanchez had turned out to be who we thought he would be, there is no doubt he would have provided more productivity for us than Sanchez. But again, the signing of sanchez gave martial a chance to try out the right flank, instead he let the situation ruin his confidence and dropped his form. That is a mentality thing. Players like Scholes and Giggs were always under threat from competition during their playing days. When Veron came in, Scholes adapted to playing as a no.10 and proved very effective in that role. Giggs was shifted around midfield and various flanks for Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Ronaldo, Nani etc and was willing and able to perform for the team with no complaint. Even for Aston Villa or Leicester, even as the best players for their teams, Grealish and Maddison have been consistently shifted and have still shone with quality. Martial needs too many specifications and I don't feel his level of talent deserves that attention.
I'd agree in selling DDG, but that's going to be tough with his new contract, Henderson, will still be only 24 I think when DDGs contract runs out, perhaps that maybe the time to give him the spot, after a few seasons on loan at SuTD. I would still try and sell the rest though, pogba is defo going it's just how much, lingard the same, Andreas defo has to go as well, Jones as well, and if Another CB is bought, Smalling will also be sold to Roma.
I can see a big clear out in summer, only if the targets we go for are getable, a top striker comes in Martial is off can see that coming. Interesting summer window coming up.
Hopefully the clearout is also backed by signing at least three players. I would sign a centre back ideally, but I really want to see how Tuanzebe performs playing with McGuire. I see a lot of potential in him and having him play there would mean we would not have to focus on a signing for that position. What is clear is that Lindelof is not good enough.
I think playing Martial on the right is removing the most threatening aspect of his game, which is cutting in from that left channel. I would just prefer us to sign a CF and a natural RW, instead of trying to fit square pegs in round holes, but I understand what you are saying in respect to the fact that Martial never fought to be in the team by adapting his game to the RW position. Shows a lack of desire or ambition really, because it has been a glaring problem area for us and even an uncomfortable Martial on the right wing would be more productive than what we have been forced to watch for the last few years.
Martial seems to fall under the exact category as Pogba, in terms of analysing why it just isn't working. We ask so many questions, say we need player x and y, or need to play a certain way to get the best out of Pogba and Martial. I have been guilty of this, and to an extent I believe there is merit to this argument, but at the end of the day I think it all comes down to Martial and Pobga themselves. They clearly have the talent, now do they have the discipline and drive to do what it takes to get to the next level, and not seem like they are satisfied to just earn a huge wage at this club, and seem disinterested due to the 'clubs' lack of ambition, yet never contribute to driving us forward themselves.