Argentina NT

Ishdalar said:
I mean, what's this? Banega comes as a sub vs Iceland, changes the game, gets praise, come second game you're already behind, Croatia is destroying you in midfield, they're going to play deep and now you bring in Dybala, not Banega? And Acuña/Meza play the whole 90 minutes despite doing nothing, but Agüero (did nothing, but we already know he's class) is benched 54' minutes into the game?. I can't for the life of me understand what's going on inside Sampaoli's head.
Click to expand...

Bringing Agüero out for Higuaín was also a very pointless substitution like it was a man for man and in the channel I was watching the game all the commentators were suplication for Banega.
 
el3mel said:
He's really expecting the players to play for him after that ? He pretty much said that they are shite and Messi is the one dragging them to do anything.

This Argentina camp surely has loads of problems in-between manager and players we don't even know everything about them.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
I never thought Sampaoli would prove such a blithering idiot. After such a performance you dont detonate a grenade like that in your camp. Ill be shocked if Nigeria doesnt thrash them now...
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Agreed.
I never thought Sampaoli would prove such a blithering idiot. After such a performance you dont detonate a grenade like that in your camp. Ill be shocked if Nigeria doesnt thrash them now...
Click to expand...
It is mental right ? I keep reading those words and I keep laughing. A whole teams is more than Messi, as great as he is, you cannot criticize them like that. Maybe he's already given up ?
I honestly think it's time for Messi to retire for real this time, he is never gonna win anything with Argentina anyway. Just focus on his brilliant club career is what he should do. Countless extraordinary players never managed to get a sniff at winning an international trophy. He wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.
 
Acheron said:
Bringing Agüero out for Higuaín was also a very pointless substitution like it was a man for man and in the channel I was watching the game all the commentators were suplication for Banega.
Click to expand...

The Higuain thing also shows a questionable level of judgement on his part. We all could concur that Icardi was in better form this season, but in games like this Higuain makes even less sense, Higuain and Agüero have more things in commong between them than with Icardi, if Agüero isn't working out, chances are Higuain won't bring anything different to try out, Icardi might be a little more different.
 
I don't get it.

Why is he not playing Dybala? After Messi hes the best player in that team.
 
Is it true that Romero was nearly fit and would have been fit for the first/second game yet the manager didn't take him and got Willy instead? That's some boneheaded thinking.
 
Ishdalar said:
The Higuain thing also shows a questionable level of judgement on his part. We all could concur that Icardi was in better form this season, but in games like this Higuain makes even less sense, Higuain and Agüero have more things in commong between them than with Icardi, if Agüero isn't working out, chances are Higuain won't bring anything different to try out, Icardi might be a little more different.
Click to expand...

Why wasn’t Icardi called up? Why were most of their best players benched?
 
kouroux said:
It is mental right ? I keep reading those words and I keep laughing. A whole teams is more than Messi, as great as he is, you cannot criticize them like that. Maybe he's already given up ?
I honestly think it's time for Messi to retire for real this time, he is never gonna win anything with Argentina anyway. Just focus on his brilliant club career is what he should do. Countless extraordinary players never managed to get a sniff at winning an international trophy. He wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.
Click to expand...
Its sad. They will all go down as yet another golden generation that under achieved
 
Peyroteo said:
Why wasn’t Icardi called up? Why were most of their best players benched?
Click to expand...

Hell if I know, people talk about Messi disliking Icardi, or not wanting to play with Dybala. But I don't think Leo would waste good bullets on what, allegedly, would be his last chance at the only trophy he dreams of.

What's more intriguing is the reasons Sampaoli gave.

“The players I called up identify with our style of play as closely as possible. For example: I chose Ansaldi because he’s a full-back who can play on both sides.

“Icardi, Perotti, Papu Gomez and Lautaro Martinez won’t come to Russia with us, but they’re still good players, who could be in our attack.

“There’s also [Dario] Benedetto, for example, who helped us a lot in qualifying but is now injured.”

Does Argentina have any style beyond pass it to Leo or pump it forward? Is he saying that Benedetto would've made the list before Icardi had he remained fit? He implies that leaving Icardi out is "the same" as leaving Lautaro or Perotti?. I'm at a loss of words with the guy, I thought I've seen it all when Maradona cut Lavezzi and Pastore to bring Palermo alonside Higuain, Messi, Tevez, Agüero and Milito (talk about overload), but it seems Argentina never ceases to amaze.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Its sad. They will all go down as yet another golden generation that under achieved
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call them "golden" but they are definitely underachieving. Having a coach who puts one player above everyone when he isn't performing doesn't help either. They do the same at Portugal but the big difference is that Ronaldo is a much biggger leader in the attitude and performances.
Messi doesn't need to be vocal, throw tantrums to show leadership, just be more alive and willing to hurt yourself for the team. I mean he would get much more respect if he gave the impression of dying for his team even if they still lost 3-0
 
kouroux said:
I wouldn't call them "golden" but they are definitely underachieving. Having a coach who puts one player above everyone when he isn't performing doesn't help either. They do the same at Portugal but the big difference is that Ronaldo is a much biggger leader in the attitude and performances.
Messi doesn't need to be vocal, throw tantrums to show leadership, just be more alive and willing to hurt yourself for the team. I mean he would get much more respect if he gave the impression of dying for his team even if they still lost 3-0
Click to expand...
Between 2006 - 2018 they have fallen short
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Between 2006 - 2018 they have fallen short
Click to expand...
So true, specially when they could have been one of the most successful teams ever if they had won all those lost finals. In a way it's refreshing, now we won't ever Messi being talked about as something he couldn't be (GOAT). Just hope the same goes for Ronaldo as Portugal fecks off and those boring ass talks stop.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Messi worship is killing them.
Click to expand...
That is the only thing that got them to the world cup. As others have said they have played worse without Messi. Other than up front they are average. Coaches are average and Messi is not the same player he was few months ago, don't know what happened there as he was flying before that. It would be best for Argentina to just start completely new after this world cup, even if that means they don't qualify for the next one.
 
Ishdalar said:
Hell if I know, people talk about Messi disliking Icardi, or not wanting to play with Dybala. But I don't think Leo would waste good bullets on what, allegedly, would be his last chance at the only trophy he dreams of.

What's more intriguing is the reasons Sampaoli gave.

“The players I called up identify with our style of play as closely as possible. For example: I chose Ansaldi because he’s a full-back who can play on both sides.

“Icardi, Perotti, Papu Gomez and Lautaro Martinez won’t come to Russia with us, but they’re still good players, who could be in our attack.

“There’s also [Dario] Benedetto, for example, who helped us a lot in qualifying but is now injured.”

Does Argentina have any style beyond pass it to Leo or pump it forward? Is he saying that Benedetto would've made the list before Icardi had he remained fit? He implies that leaving Icardi out is "the same" as leaving Lautaro or Perotti?. I'm at a loss of words with the guy, I thought I've seen it all when Maradona cut Lavezzi and Pastore to bring Palermo alonside Higuain, Messi, Tevez, Agüero and Milito (talk about overload), but it seems Argentina never ceases to amaze.
Click to expand...

If Messi wanted Icardi in the squad and Dybala starting then Icardi would have been in the squad and Dybala would have started.
 
Treble said:
Messi.

Ishdalar would rather say that Messi begged Sampaoli to take Icardi and play Dybala.
Click to expand...

I never 100% ruled out the idea that Messi and his camp might've banned Icardi from the team after what he "did" to Maxi Lopez, or that he could show discomtempt at the idea of sharing the frontline with Dybala.

I just think it would be extremely stupid from him to rule out two players of that level to end up playing with Meza, Pavon or Acuña in his last shot to the tournament he's been dreaming of for all his life. He opened the doors of his castle in Barcelona and never frowned at having Luis Suarez outscoring him, or sharing the ball with Neymar (they were literally taking turns at the ball in some games their last two seasons), I don't know why he would do that at Barcelona, but refuse to with Argentina.

And if I'm not being clear, I'm not 100% ruling out the possibilty of that, it means I'm not ruling out Messi being the stupidest guy in Russia this summer. How's that for extremely biased?.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Between 2006 - 2018 they have fallen short
Click to expand...

2006 was their best shot.

They should have beat Germany. But Pekermen took off Riquelme and made a negative sub rather than bringing on Messi whilst Argentina were on top and leading 1-0.

But since then they lacked a centre back like Ayala or a midfielder like Riquelme.

2014 they got to the final but it wasn’t really impressive to watch.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
That is the only thing that got them to the world cup. As others have said they have played worse without Messi. Other than up front they are average. Coaches are average and Messi is not the same player he was few months ago, don't know what happened there as he was flying before that. It would be best for Argentina to just start completely new after this world cup, even if that means they don't qualify for the next one.
Click to expand...

An average side with awesome attacking options like Argentina has, even without Messi, are capable of winning the World Cup if the team ethos is correct.
 
Do people honestly think Messi prefers Meza, Acuna, etc. starting over Dybala?

The simple explanation is they occupy the same space and play similarly under a general strategy. But its the role of the manager to figure something out, I think near the end when Dybala came on that was actually a good solution the way they were playing, Messi was even more involved then ever before.

Icardi you can maybe attribute to Messi and most of the NT's relationship; but its up to the federation to stomp down on stuff like this. The atmosphere of the team would also most likely be way more toxic with Icardi, especially with his social media activities after this defeat, I dont think they will forgive him for a while longer.

Everything went through Messi in the first game and they at least got a decent number of shots off, this game he was largely ignored and they just focused on delivering from the wings. Theoretically this game would be more open and better suit that style that was used in the ICeland game. The only reason the wings should've done more in the first game is because they flooded messi in the middle.

Besides that, Mascherano is truly childish and awful, the way he surges out every time to do a dumb challenge; its a shocker he hasnt been sent off yet, same with the likes of Otamendi.

At this moment, I am seriously hoping for a miracle 3rd match day. I feel like regardless Argentina are very screwed now and its very sad for such a good footballing nation. If Iceland Nigeria draw, thats potentially a very bad result as Croatia will probably play a weakened side, as they have secured first seed. The best result is probably a Nigeria 2-0 or even more victory, as the result would at least be in their hands.
 
Peyroteo said:
If Messi wanted Icardi in the squad and Dybala starting then Icardi would have been in the squad and Dybala would have started.
Click to expand...

Surely, but if Messi was half the dictatorial figure the press have painted of him Alves and Fabregas would still be FCB players, and Agüero would already have worn Blaugrana. So I remain neutral, maybe Messi hasn't publicly speaked against Dybala or Icardi, but Sampaoli has detected the ambient weird with both guys and Messi, and has decided he wants Messi happy and 0 problems, instead of endangering lighting a fire.

I mean, it would be the reasonable explanation, either that or Sampaoli is an imbecile.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
An average side with awesome attacking options like Argentina has, even without Messi, are capable of winning the World Cup if the team ethos is correct.
Click to expand...
The issue is they were not even good enough to qualify without him considering the ethos they currently have. How do you improve ethos is a different question altogether but without Messi their attacking options are worse than Brazil, France, and on par with Belgium and Spain. But all those teams are significantly better in midfield and defence.
 
RAVred said:
Do people honestly think Messi prefers Meza, Acuna, etc. starting over Dybala?

The simple explanation is they occupy the same space and play similarly under a general strategy. But its the role of the manager to figure something out, I think near the end when Dybala came on that was actually a good solution the way they were playing, Messi was even more involved then ever before.

Icardi you can maybe attribute to Messi and most of the NT's relationship; but its up to the federation to stomp down on stuff like this. The atmosphere of the team would also most likely be way more toxic with Icardi, especially with his social media activities after this defeat, I dont think they will forgive him for a while longer.

Everything went through Messi in the first game and they at least got a decent number of shots off, this game he was largely ignored and they just focused on delivering from the wings. Theoretically this game would be more open and better suit that style that was used in the ICeland game. The only reason the wings should've done more in the first game is because they flooded messi in the middle.

Besides that, Mascherano is truly childish and awful, the way he surges out every time to do a dumb challenge; its a shocker he hasnt been sent off yet, same with the likes of Otamendi.

At this moment, I am seriously hoping for a miracle 3rd match day. I feel like regardless Argentina are very screwed now and its very sad for such a good footballing nation. If Iceland Nigeria draw, thats potentially a very bad result as Croatia will probably play a weakened side, as they have secured first seed. The best result is probably a Nigeria 2-0 or even more victory, as the result would at least be in their hands.
Click to expand...

The problem for them now is even if they finish second they're going to play against France and most likely get knocked out anyway. After what happened and what I'm hearing from the players, manager and fans I really don't think they'll come back strong from this.

They still have a good chance of going through but they're talking as if they're out already.
 
RAVred said:
Everything went through Messi in the first game and they at least got a decent number of shots off, this game he was largely ignored and they just focused on delivering from the wings. Theoretically this game would be more open and better suit that style that was used in the ICeland game. The only reason the wings should've done more in the first game is because they flooded messi in the middle.
Click to expand...

Leo wasn't blameless tonight, I get what he's trying to do when he "walks his defender" to the opposite side of the pitch when covered, or how he isolates himself on the other wing, 30 meters away from the ball sometimes, technically it would be the right thing to do, and it's how he's been playing all his career, but I think a lot of the time he's not reading what the team really needs of him, instead of what the team should do.

Already happened vs Iceland, he was obnoxious about shooting every foul from different distances, or trying his signature move a little too much. He's pulling some of those things only he can do, but he's not helping Argentina gel together, no matter how atrocious some players might be, he's not winning this alone, he should've learned that from his past 2 WC experiences.
 
Is it true they players are getting Sampaoli sacked?
 
Has he benched their better players to try and send a message? Why has he switched to 3 at the back with seemingly no plan to execute it? Why hasn't he reacted in play to the huge gaps at the back right from the start? Shocking management.
 
Peyroteo said:
The problem for them now is even if they finish second they're going to play against France and most likely get knocked out anyway. After what happened and what I'm hearing from the players, manager and fans I really don't think they'll come back strong from this.

They still have a good chance of going through but they're talking as if they're out already.
Click to expand...
They don't have to worry about finishing second. I give Nigeria more of a chance of finishing second than Argentina.
 
Acheron said:
Is it true they players are getting Sampaoli sacked?
Click to expand...

They saw the Hierro effect for Spain, they just want some easy wins.

Dr. StrangeHate said:
They don't have to worry about finishing second. I give Nigeria more of a chance of finishing second than Argentina.
Click to expand...

Yup, they should be praying for Nigeria to win today, but if I had to bet money in an Argentina vs Nigeria with 2nd place on the line, I'd bet on Nigeria right now.
 
Don't generally subscribe to the idea that you need 'leaders' to win football matches - it's just another bluffer's cliché, like all that bollocks about giving 110%.

But Argentina definitely need someone with leadership skills. You look through their squad and there seem to be no authority figures. The coach doesn't seem to be instilling much discipline either.

It's no surprise they crumbled after going behind last night and spent the last 10 minutes strolling around, breaking into a trot only when thy got the chance to kick someone.
 
Bojan11 said:
2006 was their best shot.

They should have beat Germany. But Pekermen took off Riquelme and made a negative sub rather than bringing on Messi whilst Argentina were on top and leading 1-0.

But since then they lacked a centre back like Ayala or a midfielder like Riquelme.

2014 they got to the final but it wasn’t really impressive to watch.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
RAVred said:
At this moment, I am seriously hoping for a miracle 3rd match day. I feel like regardless Argentina are very screwed now and its very sad for such a good footballing nation. If Iceland Nigeria draw, thats potentially a very bad result as Croatia will probably play a weakened side, as they have secured first seed. The best result is probably a Nigeria 2-0 or even more victory, as the result would at least be in their hands.
Click to expand...

Even an Iceland win does not rule Argentina out. I think Iceland are being overrated a bit. They are an okay team, but not as good as that.

Assuming the worst case scenario, if Iceland win 1-0 against Nigeria (don't think they would score 2 tbh), I think they could still lose 2-0 or so to a weakened Croatia who may rest Modric and Mandzukic IMO. If so, Argentina have to beat Nigeria by 2 goals or so -- a tall order considering their current state, but all it takes is a tweak in tactics and some Messi magic. Yes, the team is bad and the tactics are bad, but that doesn't excuse invisible performances by one of the world's best players.
 
Caballero must be fuming at the ineptitude of his teammates. I mean, being one of the best keepers of your generation and then your teammates letting you down so badly is a travesty. I can't believe he will never have won a WC after such an illustrious career.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.