I think you just have to look at Ox apparently turning down Chelsea as an example of the mentality there. He's been chased by a team that's won the league in two of the last three seasons, is actually in the same city as his current club, and has the financial backing to a) pay him a great deal and b) bring in quality teammates to regularly compete with the best, yet he's turned it down with an apparent preference for Liverpool, the only logical reason being that he's more likely to be a guaranteed starter at Liverpool than at Chelsea.
I think Arsenal's problems go back to 2006 when they lost the Champions League final to Barcelona. They had the "Invincibles" in 03/04, won the FA Cup in 04/05, and reached their first CL final in 05/06. However, their league form had already started to dip. They went from being unbeaten champions in 03/04, to distant runners-up in 04/05, to 4th in 05/06. Not only did they finish 4th, but they finished 4th a full 24 points off 1st, and 15 points off 3rd. Funnily enough, this marked decline coincided with the move away from Highbury, with the new stadium costs being the crutch on which they've lent for the last 10 years as an excuse for not competing.
After the "Invincibles" season they also lost a number of key players without any real attempt to properly replace them. Keown and Parlour at the end of 03/04, Viera after 04/05, Bergkamp, Pires and Cole after 05/06, Henry and Ljungberg after 06/07. More recently they've seen Fabregas and van Persie leave, and it now looks like Sanchez is off soon too. Below are the players that played 10 or more league games in Arsenal's unbeaten season in 03/04, alongside the last season they played for the club and the last season they played if they've retired:
Jens Lehmann - 07/08, returned to Arsenal in 10/11 and made 1 appearance. Ashley Cole - 05/06, now at LA Galaxy Patrick Viera - 04/05, retired at Manchester City in 10/11 Martin Keown - 03/04, retired at Reading in 04/05 Robert Pires - 05/06, retired at Aston Villa in 10/11, returned to play for Goa in 2014. Freddie Ljungberg - 06/07, retired at Shimizu S-Pulse in 2011, returned to play for Mumbai in 2014 Jose Antonio Reyes - 05/06, was at Espanyol in 16/17 but appears to be without a club currently Dennis Bergkamp - 05/06, retired at Arsenal in 05/06 Sylvain Wiltord - 03/04, retired at Nantes in 11/12 Lauren - 05/06, retired at Cordoba in 09/10 Thierry Henry - 06/07, retired at New York Red Bulls in 2014, briefly returned to Arsenal in 11/12 Ray Parlour - 03/04, retired at Hull City in 06/07 Edu - 04/05, retired at Corinthians in 2010 Pascal Cygan - 05/06, retired at Cartagena in 10/11 Gilberto Silva - 07/08, retired at Atletico Mineiro in 2013 Gael Clichy - 10/11, currently at Istanbul Basaksehir Sol Campbell - 05/06, retired at Newcastle in 10/11, returned to Arsenal in 09/10 Nwankwo Kanu - 03/04, retired at Portsmouth in 11/12 Kolo Toure - 08/09, was at Celtic in 16/17 but currently without a club Jeremie Aliadiere - 06/07, currently at Lorient
Within 3 seasons following the Invincibles season, Arsenal had lost all but 4 members (20%) of the squad that were eligible for medals, and even then, one was Clichy who made 12 appearances (7 starts), and another Jens Lehmann who was there for one more season, but made just 7 appearances. United's 07/08 CL/League double winning squad for comparison:
Edwin van der Sar - 10/11, retired at United in 10/11 Patrice Evra - 13/14, currently at Marseille Owen Hargreaves - 10/11, retired at City in 11/12 Rio Ferdinand - 13/14, retired at QPR in 14/15 Wes Brown - 10/11, currently at Kerala Blasters Cristiano Ronaldo - 08/09, currently at Real Madrid Anderson - 14/15, currently at Coritiba Louis Saha - 07/08, retired at Lazio in 2013 Wayne Rooney - 16/17, currently at Everton Ryan Giggs - 13/14, retired at United in 13/14 Park Ji Sung - 11/12, retired at PSV/QPR in 13/14 Nemanja Vidic - 13/14, retired at Inter in 2015/16 Michael Carrick - Still at the club Nani - 14/15, currently at Valencia Paul Scholes - 12/13, retired at United in 12/13 John O'Shea - 10/11, currently at Sunderland Darren Fletcher - 14/15, currently at Stoke Carlos Tevez - 08/09, currently at Shanghai Shenua
Within 3 seasons following the CL/League double, United still had 11 members (61%) of the squad, and had 5 (28%) within 6, with one still here 10 years on. United also brought in a lot more in terms of quality signings than Arsenal did.
Arsenal went without any real marquee signings until Ozil came in 13/14. The rest have been decent deals for players that they hoped would come good; the likes of Rosicky, Arteta, Cazorla, Hleb, Arshevin, Adebayor, Giroud and Gervinho. Wenger became obsessed with developing a young group of players together, perhaps trying to emulate Fergie and the Class of 92. The problem here was that as soon as any got remotely close to peaking, they were off to pastures new or simply turned out not to be good enough; Fabregas, Clichy, van Persie, Reyes, Eboue, Flamini, Walcott, Bendtner, Song, Diarra, Ramsey, Nasri, Vermaelen, Koscielny, Wilshere, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Jenkinson, Gibbs, Sanogo, Welbeck, Chambers, Xhaka and Holding all Wenger projects that as time goes on provide diminishing returns as they're not even able to sell for profit as they were 5-10 years ago.
As you said, there's only so long that you can let the rot set in before it becomes almost impossible to remove. They've a squad no with almost no experience of winning anything, with no real desire to win anything, and with a horrendously fragile mindset. While they've been prone to the odd battering over the years because of the way the play, the last few seasons have shown them to not just be outclassed on occasion, but to completely down tools. They've had a decade of "well we're paying for the stadium so we're not going to win anything" and now they find themselves in a hole that it looks like they're only sinking further in to.
I'm sorry but there are a lot of things wrong with this post.
The Ox preferring Liverpool over Chelsea is somehow Arsenal's fault? That's somehow indicative of the Arsenal mentality? He isn't the first player in the world who's turned down a better club for more game time in his preferred position. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't a culture of mediocrity at the club. But that is a horrible example.
The reason we went without any marquee signings until 13/14 is because we couldn't afford them. Until recently Arsenal have never splashed out on marquee signings. Of all the great Arsenal players Wenger has had how many of them were marquee signings? What point are you even making there
We are used to it now mate, this weekend at Liverpool I went to the game and before the crowd be charged up if we let in so many goals but this time it was simply a resigned reaction. Because everyone expected it.
I noticed a few of the lads off AFTV were totally demoralised and resigned to the display after the match when Redmen were interviewing them, instead of the usual F bomb filled rants. True sign of when someone has had enough when they can't even be bothered to fight their corner anymore.
Pretty saddening to see, been there myself over the years, mostly when H&G were around and it's not a good place to be.
I noticed a few of the lads off AFTV were totally demoralised and resigned to the display after the match when Redmen were interviewing them, instead of the usual F bomb filled rants. True sign of when someone has had enough when they can't even be bothered to fight their corner anymore.
Pretty saddening to see, been there myself over the years, mostly when H&G were around and it's not a good place to be.
Your fans I know get ridicule because of RAWK but atleast had the guts to stand up for their club against your owners. The last Arsenal protest I went to had 90 people while the majority of the 'fans' stood around taking selfies or taking pictures of the protest, that's the level of your average Arsenal fan
This is gunna get absolutely savage. Wonder if the reporter for deadline day at Emirates is gunna have a private militia to protect him or just do it on a green screen?
I'm sorry but there are a lot of things wrong with this post.
The Ox preferring Liverpool over Chelsea is somehow Arsenal's fault? That's somehow indicative of the Arsenal mentality? He isn't the first player in the world who's turned down a better club for more game time in his preferred position. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't a culture of mediocrity at the club. But that is a horrible example.
The reason we went without any marquee signings until 13/14 is because we couldn't afford them. Until recently Arsenal have never splashed out on marquee signings. Of all the great Arsenal players Wenger has had how many of them were marquee signings? What point are you even making there
I think he's right that the problems started to set in around that time (2008)...you were still a very good team back then but already by that point the habit of not coping with pressure, or not being able to see out games against the best sides, was already there. I remember every time we played you, expecting it to be tough, but also being confident we'd end up winning, because even if you were outplaying us we could dig our heels in and put up a fight, and then your players would just seem to not fight back. Then eventually this seemed to be how the games would go from the start, and it's only really evened out since Fergie retired and we decided to become a bit rubbish ourselves.
Gradually players have left and the ones that have replaced them just seem to be from the Wenger factory of all style no substance. It's like he has ingrained this into them and eventually built a squad around this ideal of winning games by default because some of the football looks nice, or something. It's been going on too long to be about "losing the dressing room" or whatever. It's down to the players playing how Wenger wants them to play, and being the type of players Wenger wants to have at his club.
Ozil gets a lot of stick and rightly so, but he played in a Real Madrid team. You can bet that when he did, he wasn't allowed to slack off or mope his way through games. He was probably a completely different player. The culture in the team there would not allow otherwise. Wenger on the other hand almost seems to encourage this sort of thing. If you asked him to name a starting 11 tomorrow Ozil and Ramsey would be in it, despite the fact their performances would have merited a place in the stands the next week at pretty much any other PL side.
I'm sorry but there are a lot of things wrong with this post.
The Ox preferring Liverpool over Chelsea is somehow Arsenal's fault? That's somehow indicative of the Arsenal mentality? He isn't the first player in the world who's turned down a better club for more game time in his preferred position. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't a culture of mediocrity at the club. But that is a horrible example.
The reason we went without any marquee signings until 13/14 is because we couldn't afford them. Until recently Arsenal have never splashed out on marquee signings. Of all the great Arsenal players Wenger has had how many of them were marquee signings? What point are you even making there
I guess it's a matter of perspective. From my point of view, Ox has the opportunity to sign for the reigning champions, a club that's won 10 major honours in as many years, but for some reason has a preference for Liverpool, a club that have won precisely one in the same time period. You're right that in isolation, there's not necessarily anything wrong with a player wanting guaranteed playing time, but with Arsenal, a large number of players seem to expect that regardless of results, performance or fan expectations. As a result, when a player is offered the chance to join a better side and turns it down to go to a side inferior by comparison, it just stinks of a lack of real ambition or fight, rather than being indicative of a desire to play football. I never said it was Arsenal's fault that Ox prefered Liverpool to Chelsea, I said it was indicative of a mentality that is rife throughout the squad. Why fight for your place at the top of the pile when you can settle for something more comfortable?
As for the lack of marquee signings, this is precisely what I mean. You spent the best part of a decade telling yourselves you couldn't afford it, but by the time the stadium was a factor Wenger had become obsessed with building a squad from as yet unnurtured, raw talent, rather than building a side that could win things. As I pointed out in the post you quoted, the spine of the Invincibles side was completely gone within three seasons, and had been replaced entirely by a merry-go-round of flavour-of-the-month, late-teen/early-twenty-somethings.
Wenger's policy for almost his entire Arsenal career has been to spread the budget available over a number of signings, rather than focus on strengthening key areas. Whilst money was undoubtedly tight during the years you were paying off the stadium, the only real shift has been in the number of players being signed each window. The season before the move, you signed 9 players. The season of the move you signed a further 8. Then 5, then 3, then 3, then 5, then 9, then 5. That brings you up to 2013/14. Between 05/06 and 12/13, you signed 47 players, averaging 6.7 signings a season. This has dropped to 4.6 since 13/14, with 3 windows of 3 or fewer signings should you only make at most one more this season.
You can't tell me that the £37 million you spent on Hleb, Walcott, Rosicky, Adebayor, Diaby, Bendtner, Traore and Mannone was better spent than the £18.5 million United spent bringing in Vidic, Evra, Park and van der Sar in the same season. Nor can you tell me that the £14 million you spent on Gallas, Eduardo, Fabianski, Denilson, and Song was better spent than the £18.5 million United spent on Carrick the season after. Wenger repeatedly spread the budget over a number of not-quite-good-enough players because he became obsessed with making them more than they could be, and also because the club, for some reason, kept letting players leave. Henry, Reyes, Flamini, Pires, Viera, Cole, Hleb, Campbell, Ljungberg, Adebayor, Toure, Clichy, Nasri, Song, van Persie, Fabregas, Sagna and Vermaelen, all gone in that time.
I mean not sure what one earth Wenger. They've started the season poorly yet they manage to not only miss out on a big target in Lemar but also decide to sell Chaimberlain to a rival. Unless they make a big signing late in this a strange end to the window for them.
Imagine being one of the 50,000-ish melts dropping £900+ a year on a season ticket for this never ending shit show and then hearing your club still don't have a penny to spend on transfers. Madness.
United better tonk these fecktards and do the double against them this year. Still angers me that they managed a draw last year at OT. No peno on Bellend and the crap equalizer after doing feck all the entire match.
I wonder if this is indicative of a split between members of the board and Wenger himself. There's enough to suggest he doesn't have universal backing and that Kroenke ultimately made the choice to renew his contract. Could be that the board isn't willing to give him money at this late stage in the market considering the type of garbage panic buying he's done in the past.
How the f*** can a club with their income from season tickets, their non-existent transfer spend, their commercial income and their ridiculous revenue from TV deals have no money in August?
That's absolutely staggering. Where's the money gone?
How the f*** can a club with their income from season tickets, their non-existent transfer spend, their commercial income and their ridiculous revenue from TV deals have no money in August?
That's absolutely staggering. Where's the money gone?
How the f*** can a club with their income from season tickets, their non-existent transfer spend, their commercial income and their ridiculous revenue from TV deals have no money in August?
That's absolutely staggering. Where's the money gone?
I wonder if this is indicative of a split between members of the board and Wenger himself. There's enough to suggest he doesn't have universal backing and that Kroenke ultimately made the choice to renew his contract. Could be that the board isn't willing to give him money at this late stage in the market considering the type of garbage panic buying he's done in the past.
I guess it's a matter of perspective. From my point of view, Ox has the opportunity to sign for the reigning champions, a club that's won 10 major honours in as many years, but for some reason has a preference for Liverpool, a club that have won precisely one in the same time period. You're right that in isolation, there's not necessarily anything wrong with a player wanting guaranteed playing time, but with Arsenal, a large number of players seem to expect that regardless of results, performance or fan expectations. As a result, when a player is offered the chance to join a better side and turns it down to go to a side inferior by comparison, it just stinks of a lack of real ambition or fight, rather than being indicative of a desire to play football. I never said it was Arsenal's fault that Ox prefered Liverpool to Chelsea, I said it was indicative of a mentality that is rife throughout the squad. Why fight for your place at the top of the pile when you can settle for something more comfortable?
As for the lack of marquee signings, this is precisely what I mean. You spent the best part of a decade telling yourselves you couldn't afford it, but by the time the stadium was a factor Wenger had become obsessed with building a squad from as yet unnurtured, raw talent, rather than building a side that could win things. As I pointed out in the post you quoted, the spine of the Invincibles side was completely gone within three seasons, and had been replaced entirely by a merry-go-round of flavour-of-the-month, late-teen/early-twenty-somethings.
Wenger's policy for almost his entire Arsenal career has been to spread the budget available over a number of signings, rather than focus on strengthening key areas. Whilst money was undoubtedly tight during the years you were paying off the stadium, the only real shift has been in the number of players being signed each window. The season before the move, you signed 9 players. The season of the move you signed a further 8. Then 5, then 3, then 3, then 5, then 9, then 5. That brings you up to 2013/14. Between 05/06 and 12/13, you signed 47 players, averaging 6.7 signings a season. This has dropped to 4.6 since 13/14, with 3 windows of 3 or fewer signings should you only make at most one more this season.
You can't tell me that the £37 million you spent on Hleb, Walcott, Rosicky, Adebayor, Diaby, Bendtner, Traore and Mannone was better spent than the £18.5 million United spent bringing in Vidic, Evra, Park and van der Sar in the same season. Nor can you tell me that the £14 million you spent on Gallas, Eduardo, Fabianski, Denilson, and Song was better spent than the £18.5 million United spent on Carrick the season after. Wenger repeatedly spread the budget over a number of not-quite-good-enough players because he became obsessed with making them more than they could be, and also because the club, for some reason, kept letting players leave. Henry, Reyes, Flamini, Pires, Viera, Cole, Hleb, Campbell, Ljungberg, Adebayor, Toure, Clichy, Nasri, Song, van Persie, Fabregas, Sagna and Vermaelen, all gone in that time.
Yeah, I would agree with your basic principle. It's what I've said and thought too, I can't ever remember Wenger dropping a player because they've performed poorly. He's become a soft touch.
Regarding the players signed we'll never really know the full story of why we they were sold every season. Of the players you've mentioned we signed some of them had very good seasons whilst others were duds, but that happens at every club. At their peaks for us the likes of Adebayor, Rosicky, Hleb, and even Diaby were very good. For whatever reason he just couldn't get them to maintain that peak. Which probably is down to his management style. You won't get any defence of Wenger from me, I'm sick of him at this point, but I don't think you can criticise him for his approach during the years we were paying off the stadium debt. I think he managed that very well by keeping us in the top 4 whilst also selling off players every season, and I don't think he chose to sell his best players every season. The circumstances demanded it. I think it was perfectly reasonable for us to have the aim of focusing on finishing top 4 every season and earning the CL money to pay off the debt. The problem with Wenger comes in the seasons after the stadium debt had eased when we should have started splashing the cash and aiming for higher than top 4. That's when we should have kicked on but maybe at that point he'd become complacent and too used to aiming for the bare minimum? Who knows, but I think that's when it all started going wrong. Around the time of the Ozil signing when it was clear we had the money to finally compete. Not in the years before that
Surely Wenger would have allowed Ox to play in midfield if he was to stay? They could have always gone 4-3-3. Seems there is something definitely not right with the dressing room.
The more I think about this the more this looks like they are not backing him for a reason.
There is currently nobody available they want to replace Wenger, but at the same time they don't trust him to spend the money on anything other than utter shit.
So he is there until whoever they think they are going to get to manage the car crash he leaves behind becomes available and he gets the money.
A bit like Fergie in his last couple of years of "no value" bullshit, but with a shit manager rather than one of the greatest to have ever lived.
