Arsenals chances of a top 4 finish this season
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
WTF
are you chelsea or city fan?
What a retarded comment!
Minger is THE transfer muppet.
There's a lot of Arsenal fans that are also pissed off at the owners. Winning feck all for 6 years then repeatedly selling all your best players will do that. When the club charges it's fans more for tickets than any other club in the land (an issue which won't affect the like of Trionz) you can see why a lot of gooners are feeling a bit pissed off right now.
I'm not bothered about us not winning the league when we're competing against City/United, but the way in which the club has been run over the last few years has been nothing short of diabolical.
Trouble is, with van Persie gone, they need to count on either of the new strikers having a very good season because their remaining players don't have that many goals in them. Replacing 30 goals in a season is going to be tough, they're not going to come from Walcott, Gervinho and Arteta.
Walker made a riiiiight mess on that first one yesterday eh?
I do like him, he's gonna be a quality player, but similarly to Rafael, he's a young defender with lots of promise that makes mistakes.
probably but the model is a disgrace??
if an ideal model like ours is a disgrace, then feck me, football will be a shithole.
I am completely behind Arsenal board since they really care about the clubs' stability and not being myopic about success.
Fans, like you, are typical short-sighted. but fortunately there are fans like me who genuinely care about their club's financial wellbeing, as i am not selfish.
Strictly speaking, you, me and a lot of others here are football fans and we know feckall about club finances and economy. You may not be selfish and you may be patient, but you do not know what is good for your football club in terms of selling and buying. For all you know, you may be well off and your board of directors are making money off you.
One thing we all agree on, is that success on pitch translates to success off pitch as well. And that's not the way Arsenal fc is heading to at the moment.
Personally, I think you are fecked.
Back on topic, I think they'll quite easily finish top four again. They will certainly bring a couple of players in before deadline day.
oh well, despite being trophyless, we have been heading the list of top clubs in terms of asset and marketability..
But yeah, go on think we are fecked.
There are enough knowledgable people outside who can decipher financial performance of a clun and Swiss Ramble, despite being an Arsenal fan, think we are stable; so yeah i am quite confident that our model is genuinely the right way to go about things.
Are you a bit confused? You are saying you are heading the list of top clubs in terms of asset and marketability, yet you have become a selling club.
I think what the neutrals are saying is, with your assets and money, you can afford NOT to sell your best players to your rivals and not be content with a top 4 place.
Just to let you know, we are the pioneers of your model. To live within our means. We perfected it. Our debts are forced on us by a hostile takeover.
i never said we invented thr model.
And in that case, kingminger is calling United's model a disgrace as well.
How can we afford NOT to, when there was/is a clear debt to repay?
And in that case, kingminger is calling United's model a disgrace as well.
How can we afford NOT to, when there was/is a clear debt to repay?
Zero debt is not the criteria for a healthy club. Manageable debt is.
Neither Kingminger nor Pogue Mahone are suggesting that you go crazy on transfers and build the most expensive team ever. What they are suggesting is, You can afford to build a competitive team, instead of trying to replace them with cheaper alternatives.
I can't believe you are not able to distinguish between the two. For example, Arsenal could have taken then 20 Odd million hit on Robin Van Persie and could have told him to play in the team and hope to put a good run, changing his mind. Wenger said there wasn't a choice for them, but there really was.
Some gems from the Sunday supplement after we drew our first game http://gossip.ladyarse.com/2012/08/sunday-supplement-cazorla-is-a-poor-mans-fabregas/
Some I could agree with but as usual the papers putting their foot in their mouths, love the Cazorla one.
And rightly so because they expect us to pay top buck but not really living up to their end of the bargain. Partially down to the debts but also a flawed philosophy which it looks like is changing. This summer for once the club have been proactive in going out and signing decent players. They aren't world beaters but we aren't in a position to go out and spent £30mill a player and bring in 4 or 5 of them. If rumours are to be believed we are planning on bringing Sahin in and maybe M'Vila as well which will more than compensate for the loss of Song. Yes we have lost RvP but we have bought in Giroud, Podolski and Cazorla and I think those guys can offset his loss. We have bought in good players and added depth the squad which was really lacking. Then add in that for the likes of Ox & Gervinho I think they will improve this season and hopefully Theo can build on a solid season last year.
We aren't going to become title challengers but for once this club is moving in the right direction. Not entirely perfect but a lot better than the past. Look at the shambles of last summer when we managed to get some decent players but at what cost, now that was bad.....
Some I could agree with but as usual the papers putting their foot in their mouths, love the Cazorla one.
And rightly so because they expect us to pay top buck but not really living up to their end of the bargain. Partially down to the debts but also a flawed philosophy which it looks like is changing. This summer for once the club have been proactive in going out and signing decent players. They aren't world beaters but we aren't in a position to go out and spent £30mill a player and bring in 4 or 5 of them. If rumours are to be believed we are planning on bringing Sahin in and maybe M'Vila as well which will more than compensate for the loss of Song. Yes we have lost RvP but we have bought in Giroud, Podolski and Cazorla and I think those guys can offset his loss. We have bought in good players and added depth the squad which was really lacking. Then add in that for the likes of Ox & Gervinho I think they will improve this season and hopefully Theo can build on a solid season last year.
We aren't going to become title challengers but for once this club is moving in the right direction. Not entirely perfect but a lot better than the past. Look at the shambles of last summer when we managed to get some decent players but at what cost, now that was bad.....
Aren't Arsenal one of the two or three clubs in the EPL, include ourselves, that have actually managed to make a profit over the last few years? I admire their sanity in refusing to be drawn into debt trying to keep up with ridiculously inflated transfers.
That seems to mean they'll need to sell players more often than they may like, but I don't think that alone is enough to undo Wenger. The problem seems to be a bottleneck in the stream of quality, they're just not getting in the same quality they used to.
I'm not sure why that is, maybe the global talent pool is being tapped into with more skill by more teams and Wenger is losing the fight for players he would have gotten years ago. Part of the blame has to go to Wenger for thinking that players like Gervinho, Arshavin, Chamakh, Bendtner and Koscielny could maintain the same level as the players they replaced. Compared to Gallas, Fabregas, Gilberto Silva, Henry and even Adebayor they fall way short. Even better players like Arteta and Podolski aren't going to make an impact like Fabregas and Henry, how do they get back there?
There's also no depth, players like Hleb, Flamini, Ljungberg, Eboue, Clichy, Johan Djourou and Denilson aren't there to fill in around the stars either.
That seems to mean they'll need to sell players more often than they may like, but I don't think that alone is enough to undo Wenger. The problem seems to be a bottleneck in the stream of quality, they're just not getting in the same quality they used to.
I'm not sure why that is, maybe the global talent pool is being tapped into with more skill by more teams and Wenger is losing the fight for players he would have gotten years ago. Part of the blame has to go to Wenger for thinking that players like Gervinho, Arshavin, Chamakh, Bendtner and Koscielny could maintain the same level as the players they replaced. Compared to Gallas, Fabregas, Gilberto Silva, Henry and even Adebayor they fall way short. Even better players like Arteta and Podolski aren't going to make an impact like Fabregas and Henry, how do they get back there?
There's also no depth, players like Hleb, Flamini, Ljungberg, Eboue, Clichy, Johan Djourou and Denilson aren't there to fill in around the stars either.
manageable debt was clearly not there atleast in first 5years of Emirates.
Just because it is now doesn't mean, it were always present.
wenger himself said, Arsenal need to make atleast 15m profit to remain stable.
22m is a huge amount to take a hit upon, which doesn't even include wages for a season, for a player who doesn't want to be here.
Sell him abroad, one would say, but if there is no interest from such clubs or the player is unwilling to join such club, then what?
No they are not suggesting to go gung-ho in market. What are they suggesting exactly?
What exactly is the point of coming on a Man Utd forum to parrot a load of old shit about Arsenal by morons like Custis, Ashton and Richardson?
If you can't make a 15 million profit in spite of your assets and marketability, then you are not a big club anymore?
You sold Robin Van Persie and made a 22 million profit. You didn't lose money on him. You were paying his wages, you signed him for 3 Million. Are you suggesting that you have to sell your top players to break even? That's Portsmouth, not Arsenal.
They are suggesting that you need not sell your best players, and not sign anybody. They are suggesting with the new TV Money, Market earnings and gate receipts, you should be able to sanction signings which are needed to keep you competitive. And in case, a player turns rogue, you can occasionally take a call that you can let the player go on a free instead of strengthening your rivals.
Clearly, we'll be going on and on about this one. I'd say it is very crass of you to suggest that the other fans who advocate spending a few to achieve bigger things aren't selfish, short sighted and naive. Good luck.
I agree with your stance completely.
I think Arsenal are doing well in terms of long term future and even though it might be frustrating in short term to see your best players going. I honestly think it's the best way Arsenal can go about things right now to compete with us or sugardaddy backed clubs.
The key to the model is Wenger and FFP. Even if you give him just a bag of chips as a transfer budget he'll pretty much ensure a top 4 finish and the best thing is, even if you don't finish top 4 you are not fecked. Obviously he will not be there forever so you have to make the best out of it while he is there. I think Arsenal will look to pay off that debt as much as they could while Arsene is there so that anyone who succeeds in longer term will be backed by enough financial clout to compete.
That's not to say Arsenal will never challenge for title, I've seen enough football to understand bigger investment doesn't necessarily mean better for the team. I think a lot of people underestimate the financial muscle that Arsenal are going to have in few years time when they bring the debt down by paying off a chunk of it while still managing to be competitive. They've done well where Liverpool have failed. Add to that FFP and if UEFA are serious about it then Arsenal could end up being one of the powerhouses.
Ofcourse, this is all assuming that your owners don't decide to sell you off to another Glazers once your debt comes down or empathetic enough not to drain out all the profits as dividends without re-investing major portion of it.
The business is obviously healthy, but when you think in pure football terms, 4TH by default every season and srlling your best players and replacing them with cheap knockoffs isn't really good management of a club that size.
That is precisely the reason why the business is healthy. The only way they can compete for buying top players(who are likely to be the difference between winning the league/finishing fourth) which means outbidding United/City/Chelsea/Madrid/Barca is by putting their financial health under serious risk and taking a huge gamble.
I would think the problem for matchgoing fans who pay the highest prices in the league, isnt that Arsenal arent managing to compete with United and City, its that they blatantly make no attempt to.
Arsenal ticket prices, as argued by one of match-going fans himself(not me), isn't as high as people think.
Arsenal season ticket also allow cup games; which other clubs don't.
Arsenal is a london club, so property prices & construction of Emirates(whose ambience people enjoy while there) was quite high.
Arsenal season ticket also allow cup games; which other clubs don't.
Arsenal is a london club, so property prices & construction of Emirates(whose ambience people enjoy while there) was quite high.
Oh, stop worrying, if the bank will give you the loan you must be good for it, right?
Huh? Since when was there only two options? Bankrupt, like Leeds, or zero net spend like Arsenal. What a ridiculously simplistic argument.
We can't actually in pure commercial terms yet, that is right.
Very few clubs make profit. Despite all the TV money, market earning; Hardly any English club make huge profit.
Even Barcelona & Real Madrid are in debt.
All our profit so far have been from transfers & property selling.
We have taken steps in commercial field and by 2015, we would be able to match Bayern atleast.
Last time i checked, Portsmouth don't have a 60,000 capacity Stadium built in middle of North London, do they?
Your stance about Arsenal staying firm & not sell Robin and thereby take a hit of 20m; is very emotional option, but that 20m can help Arsenal in better ways than making Robin stay put for a season.
One may argue that Arsene spent that 20m on Giroud & Podolski which means we have two players with only Arsenal in mind, with more than one year of service.
And your mates seem to agree with me.
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/let-player-leave-free-sell-pl-rivals-357495/
Covered.
I like you, Tooni.
Giroud, Podolski & Cazorla may have been cheap purchase but they are quality players.
Who should we have bought to replace Robin?
You really think Arsenal can overtake us, City, and Chelsea without a massive injection of funds? You lambast City and Chelsea all the time for fecking up the market, how can a club operate responsibly and finish above clubs that can burn millions in a single transfer window?
I don't see the point of coming on a Man Utd forum with the sole aim to wind up their fans but each to their own.
A better idea to wind up their fans than your own you wanker.
Ahhahahahahaha I've just seen pete's Avatar, who did that? It's brilliant.
The same way that Liverpool, for example, have finished ahead of Arsenal three times in the league - and won a few cups - throughout a period of 6 years when Arsenal won feck all.
No, I don't understand it at all. Your squad was inadequate last season. It needed improvement. You've signed replacements, arguably inferior ones. It's not just one season either, it's been over a period of time.
You are confusing YoY profits with debt on the club. The last time I read Swissramble's blogs, I thought you were a stable club with debts well under manageable limits for a club of size with your income.
Hey, I'm not losing sleep over it either. Feel free to drift away.
What a load of rambling nonsense. Because "one of matchgoing fans" thinks ticket prices aren't as high as people think we're supposed to think they're actually not incredibly expensive? What the feck?
Enjoy the "ambience" though. I'm sure that's why most football fans go to games, right? Oh and i've been to the Emirates. Several times. The tickets were ridiculously expensive and the atmosphere was shit.
You are welcome to make the argument ridiculously complex and you can attach numbers to it but I doubt you would arrive at a very different conclusion.
They could have a positive net spend, but the point is that sum will not be much so they are better off using it to pay off the debt than to buy a player for sake of it. They can be like Liverpool if you want, acquiring decent players but they are hardly going to improve their chances significantly. Why invest when Wenger has shown time and time again that he is capable of finishing in Top 4 with whatever is available for him.
They are playing a safe game and I think it's the sensible thing to do. Despite the huge profits last time around, the major chunk of them were from selling players and properties and both of them are not a stable source of inflow which you can bet upon.
They can afford may be around 20 million if you stretch it but the days of signing a real top class "prospect" for that sum are long gone unless you are a Barca or Madrid. We also need to consider that we are talking about someone who made a name for himself by being shrewd in transfer market. If he is not able to find a player who is likely to improve the team within the budget then I'd hazard a guess that it's likely to be closer to the truth than our assumptions.
Fergie looks like Souness in Pete's avatar
That's a very glamorous stat there, Pogue. I'm sure Liverpool are elated to have finished ahead of Arsenal in the league while Arsenal had to do with just building their own stadium and pretty much just securing their long term future. If not for FSG, they would have most likely gone bankrupt. You think a few cups and finishing above Arsenal is worth it ?
Liverpool were trophy-less till last season for like straight 6 years, without any debt.
So pardon me, if i don't get your point.
As i said, it is now. Not always in span of last 7 years.
Neither am i losing any sleep.