Pirlo is a holding midfielder because he is a deep lying playmaker. Not all holding midfielders are destroyer type. Carrick, Alonso, verratti, Busuqet, etc.
Arturo Vidal
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Pirlo is a holding midfielder because he is a deep lying playmaker. Not all holding midfielders are destroyer type. Carrick, Alonso, verratti, Busuqet, etc.
Well yeah, people have said that Vidal would need to stay back when Herrera went forward... That's what the whole conversation is about. We have a pretty weak defence as it is, so sending both Vidal and Herrera up in attack and leaving Smalling/Evans exposed wouldn't be a great idea. If Herrera pushes forward then Vidal would generally be expected to hold.
I wouldn't have said that at all two years ago, Modric would have been perfect for United in front of Carrick and Alonso really is a perfect partner for him. Alonso isn't a defensive midfielder if you're defining it as a De Jong styled enforcer, but really a proper definition would include players like Alonso who sit deep, shield the defence and pass from deep. He's a really clear holding midfielder.
Even the current Van Persie was not a "cut above" the Suarez of last year. He got more goals and assists than even Van Persie's best year. Using that prime is silly as we're comparing them now and he's not as good as Robben/Suarez now.
Madrid's system wouldn't fit Mata in and he wouldn't get a sniff on the wings. Barca have signed Suarez and wouldn't have room for him if they are really going for a front 3 of:
Messi, Suarez, Neymar.
No but it doesn't make him defensively sound, those you mentioned aren't destroyers correct but they can defend. The reason Juve play 3 in midfield is because Pirlo doesn't have the defensive capabilities to defend on his own. If you take the defending part away then 'holding' just means someone who doesn't attack. Surely you wouldn't suggest Herrera or Vidal wouldn't be capable of deciding when to attack or defend?
Pirlo is a really extreme example, others like Alonso are much more defensively sound. The aren't many like Pirlo, in fact I'm struggling to think of any at the top level.
I'm not debating the definition of a holding midfielder, we are talking about a complimentary partnership, as long as you have a capable player in the right position to defend, what's the problem? The difference in having two players who can attack and defend with great ability is you aren't so reliant on the those specialist players to do their jobs. You've got far more options going forward and will have far more chances to do so.
Its an extreme example to emphasis my point that just because you are a holding player doesn't mean you're brilliant at defending.
Pirlo is being protected by two box to box and contributes in the holding midfield role via his ball retention ability and positional awareness. Having that player behind Vidal will not bind Vidal to a strict defense role. As Theon said, Vidal defense contribution comes from his pressing and cleaning up play in front of him, while not playing in a restrictive role. The free role he is giving contributes to his good defense stats like Ramsey for Arsenal.
In a midfield two, one the players natural contribution to the offense side of the game will be restricted because they would have to watch their positional role. If you are going with the "take turn to defend" approach, neither Vidal or Herrera will be at their best at United unless one makes the sacrifice to become the number 6.
Well you were saying that Alonso wasn't a defensive midfielder, so that's why it's been brought up. He is a defensive midfielder and he shields the defence in a way that Vidal and Herrera do not.
No one is saying there is a problem - the partnership would work. All that has been said is that it's not a particularly complimentary partnership and that it probably won't get the best out of either player individually. Both of them will have to at times play a more restrictive game than you want them to, this idea that they'll 'take turns bombing forward'. Ideally Vidal would always be allowed to go forward.
I'm not going to trawl though 100-odd pages. Could someone link me to one of the reports that has inspired you lot to post 100-odd page?
Its not a 'take turn' approach, its a 'being able to cover each other approach'. What you keep failing to grasp is I'm not saying to restrict Vidal! Let Vidal do his job as Herrera can play in a deeper role, he has done so on so many occasions you'd be daft to question his ability to play there. However if Herrera does venture forward WHEN we have the ball Vidal CAN cover IF NEED BE. I'm not saying Vidal has to sit deep, I'm saying on the occasions where Herrera is in a better position to go forward (and there will be plenty of times when that happens) he can fill in that role.
Aye exactly, and also for Juventus they have three centre backs so there is even less of a need for Vidal to restrict himself defensively. It isn't just that he has Pirlo behind him, it's also that he has three centre backs which allows him to just go and play his game.
Diddly squat. We are just going to run this to another 400 pages and tweet the link to vidal in the hope that he joins us.
It's gone as far as 'Vidal has a price and United are interested'. We are desperate, let us live in hope.
What I said was he wasn't a defensive specialist which is what you keep suggesting we play next to Vidal, there's a big, big difference.
Its not complimentary but it will work fine, that's two conflicting points. Its not about what's best for the individual player, its about what's best for the team which is what everyone wants and is what everyone is saying. Where does this 'take turns' thing keep coming from? Please quote me when I've said this. Its whoever is in the best position! What would be better Vidal bombing forward on a side where the opposition has plenty of defensive cover or Herrera bombing forward into clear space with a direct route to goal? I'd happily 'restrict Vidal' in that example.
Just out of curiosity why do you beleive Herrera incapable of shielding the defense in the same manner as Alonso?
So Herrera will be the one that takes up the number 6 role, while Vidal gets the free role? This is what I suggested to Pexbo, but Herrera will have to adapt considering that he mostly plays furthur up the pitch for Bilbao. If he does, that will be good for this midfield duo in particularily Vidal.
Exactly, Herrera still has played a fair bit further back it was only recently that he had been moved to AM, he won't have any problems playing there.
When you have two all rounders, you don't shoehorn them both into positions they aren't used to. They'd both cover for each other and put in shifts at both ends of the pitch.
Pretty much, Herrera will be the slightly more defensive and play a loose #6 but he'll have far more license to go forward than a typical one.
Reality check for you, last two seasona we went toe to toe with Madrid and most likely would have beaten them if not for a absurd red. Last year we came mighty close to toppling Bayern with Moyes in charge.
Yeah, ok mate. Only a United fan would ever think that right now Van Persie is as good or better than Robben or Suarez.
He's obviously not in as good form, doesn't make him a lesser player. You're judging players far to much on form, rather then ability. A year ago no one would have Robben or Suarez ahead of RVP (who's been tearing up the league for about 4 years now). Infact the season Bayern won the CL I seem to remember whisperings of Bayern wanting rid. Shows how foolish it is to judge players on current form. In truth, the likes of RVP, Suarez, Robben, Bale etc etc are all in the same group, behind Messi/Ronaldo, with very little separating them.
One goal. One.
I have no faith in this happening.. But my inner muppet is crying for this.
Not sure how anyone is suggesting shoehorning Vidal by saying he's better paired with a holding midfielder. It's the complete opposite really.
Aye, as I said before if he can adapt his game and play that way then there wouldn't be a problem. Of the two he would be more suited to a restrictive role, allowing Vidal to constantly push high up the pitch without leaving the defence exposed.
Still I think the original comments were all fair, a partnership such as Vidal/Martinez seems more complimentary. I think Herrera/Vidal would still work - and would be absolutely perfect in a 3-5-2 - but I'm not surprised some are questioning it.
Aye, as I said before if he can adapt his game and play that way then there wouldn't be a problem. Of the two he would be more suited to a restrictive role, allowing Vidal to constantly push high up the pitch without leaving the defence exposed.
Still I think the original comments were all fair, a partnership such as Vidal/Martinez seems more complimentary. I think Herrera/Vidal would still work - and would be absolutely perfect in a 3-5-2 - but I'm not surprised some are questioning it.
This is Thiago all over again, isn't it? Feels so similar. Will hurt twice as bad.
Fair do's, I can see where you're coming but respectfully disagree. I guess you just see Vidal being restricted far more than I do by playing them both together, I suppose only time will tell.
He's not been in "good form" for a while now and is hardly young either. Suarez is younger, has looked more dangerous for well over a year now as well. Also, last year Suarez was very close to Van Persie to top scorer before his ban.
Robben has been absolutely incredible for a long while, he's generally considered the 3rd best in the world currently. You rate players on current form and on paper, right now, Van Persie isn't as deadly as Robben, Messi, Ronaldo etc.
I don't think he'll ever hit the same form he hit in his first year for you.
All I can say is we better fecking land a couple of players of Vidal's stature this summer.
Ducker says we're still monitoring developments regarding Vidal, although we've balked at Juve's £36m starting price for him.
If and it's a big if Vidal comes to united, that probably means no Strootman.
It will never happen, United has always had a British spine to the team unfortunately.
Who won a league medal?
He's had one under par season. I think you're being mightily premature. We shall see...
Times are changing. United have a non British manager now. Van Gaal's only focus will be on united, not supplying players for the good of British national teams.
There's no quality British CM available left.
And Van Gaal won't favor players because they are British he won't give a feck. Guarantee if the likes of Cleverley, Smalling, Jones don't actually show some progression he'll sell them all.
He's the type of manager who will insist on talent if he sees it. Even if that could cost him the job.
However I cant see how anyone can refuse Vidal or see him too expensive. He's the closest player I've seen to Roy Keane. Put him and Herrera in midfield and the EPL will probably be ours. That's how good he is.
I don't want to go off topic too much, but given United's poor season last season, united can't afford to do a Liverpool whereby they miss out on the champions league for 5 years or so. Top 4 is a must next season, and if that means the likes of Carrick, Cleverley, Rooney, Fletcher, Young and or Smalling don't get massive game time, so be it. If Mata cost £37m then Vidal for a similar price is fair enough.
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