40 years is a pretty fecking long sentence. They were never going to hang him.
Balkan Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It does.
Person responsible for genocide getting "just" 40 years is too little. Of course it doesn't matter for him since he'll die for in jail even if he got 15-20.
If by this you mean many other responsible for crimes committed against Serbian civilians, then yes, I agree.
I've often wondered - and please don't take this the wrong way, but does anybody know just how involved he was in the acts of genocide? I understand the accusation is that he gave the orders, but was he there on the ground overseeing the massacres taking place?
Same question for Ratko Mladic: I understand this guy was actually on the front line. Again, is he implied to have witnessed the bloodshed - or just been aware of it?
Also - I understand he's still a hero in some cities, and that the Army of Republika Sprska actually sheltered him in their bases until 2002. Just curious to hear from people in the region such as @Mihajlovic - what is the common perception of this guy amongst normal people in your area?
Same question for Ratko Mladic: I understand this guy was actually on the front line. Again, is he implied to have witnessed the bloodshed - or just been aware of it?
Also - I understand he's still a hero in some cities, and that the Army of Republika Sprska actually sheltered him in their bases until 2002. Just curious to hear from people in the region such as @Mihajlovic - what is the common perception of this guy amongst normal people in your area?
I want to know @Mihajlovic opinion about the train. Trains matter. It is hilarious and is becoming a meme thing.
For those interested, Serbia-Kosovo relations are in the lowest point since 2008. The Middle East of Europe strikes again!
For those interested, Serbia-Kosovo relations are in the lowest point since 2008. The Middle East of Europe strikes again!
What's happened?
Good bump 
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Serbia is in bad relationship with everyone these days, I have no idea what is it that they are trying to do.
.Serbia is in bad relationship with everyone these days, I have no idea what is it that they are trying to do.
After Trump's rhetoric toward Russia, Serbia seems to have gone again in total delusion and have gone aggressive again. There were a few small incidents in the last few weeks, including building a wall in the city of Mitrovica to separate the Serbians and Albanians, calling gently politicians of Kosovo as 'citizens of Republic of Serbia' and more recently an ex prime minister of Kosovo was arrested from Interpol on France for war crimes with Serbian request. The same guy was judged un-guilty in Hague twice. Kosovo in return denied the entrance of president of Serbia in Kosovo for Serbian Christmas, which was actually the first time that a leader of Serbia was not for Christmas in Kosovo. Seselj student was very unhappy for that.
But the most hilarious - and at the same time childish thing - was the train.
Now, for those who are not totally familiar with situation, a quick review. Kosovo declared independence in 2008, Serbia doesn't recognize it, Russia promised veto in UN if Kosovo applies for a seat, 113 states recognize Kosovo, etc etc. Kosovo and Serbia made a series of deals in the last few years, including one to normalize relations between them, things were starting to become a bit civilized in the shithole of Europe. While de jure, Kosovo has control over its entire territory, on the north the population is mostly (almost totally) Serbian, and while the police there have the uniform of Kosovo, and the leaders (who are also part of the government) got votes to become leaders there in Kosovo elections, they are controlled from Belgrade.
Now, after a series of moves (that I mentioned in the beginning of this post) from Serbia (and similar things with the other members) they decided to go full kid. They got a train as donation from mother Russia (symbolic guys, that is the most important thing), they decorated it with religious painting (again symbolic) and more importantly wrote on it 'Kosovo is Serbia' in 21 languages, including in Albanian. And they decided to open a railway line from Belgrade to Mitrovica with this train, without asking for permission to Kosovo railway.
Kosovo asked EU to stop this, EU said that these types of stuff should be solved by dialogue, Serbian politicians said that this is not a provocation, but it is a train that just satisfies freedom of movement. They said that they will go ahead with the plan, including putting on the train a lot of Serbian politicians (again, they need an entry permit to get into Kosovo). On the day of the event, Kosovo sent its special police to stop the train. Train comes until 10km near the border, then it stops for a few hours, and finally with the order of prime minister of Serbia returns in Belgrade without entering Kosovo. After a few hours, Kosovan special police withdraw.
Serbia cry for the injustice, say that Kosovo doesn't want peace, that if Kosovo kills Serbians they will act (I mean what the feck, this shit has not been happening like for a long time), the president of Serbia mobilizes the army for war, it sends and immediately withdraw army from Kosovan border. EU say to look forward, not backward, US say that Kosovo had every right to protect their borders, Kosovan prime minister and president give the merit of stooping the train to themselves, Serbian PM call Russia to moan about how Kosovo didn't allow the train to enter, he also declares that he stopped a war by ordering the train to stop (again, WTF) and he is a man of peace, Serbian president continues crying.
Somewhere in Kosovo and Serbia, some people are in cold and are not sure if they have enough to eat. And the overcrowded 2 wagon train from Belgrade to Budapest is still overcrowded, while the most modern train Serbia has is non active, because its goal was never to solve people problems, instead it was used as a political sign.
But symbolic and nationalism is strong as ever. That's Balkan for you!
Oh, did I mention that the elections for the president of Serbia are near?!
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They've gone full Serbia, nothing to see here. I don't have any idea how EU got fooled that the likes of Nikolic and Vucic are people of peace, and are oriented toward the west.Good bump
Serbia is in bad relationship with everyone these days, I have no idea what is it that they are trying to do.
For unknown reasons, they also seem to think that Trump is the savior. The same guy who during the NATO intervention in Kosovo, said that NATO shouldn't bomb Serbia with airplanes, instead they should immediately sent the infantry there and quit the war in a fast and efficient way, in order to minimize the killing of Albanian population.
Now, Trump changes his opinions quite often, but Kosovo is a very small thing for US, so I don't think that there will be a 180 degree in US foreign policies here. Trump will have more serious problems than worrying about Kosovo and the ambassador (chosen during Obama spell) won't even chance.
But hey, Seselj said that Trump is the savior, so who are Vucic and Nikolic to disagree with their ex-boss.
I didn't even follow the whole story with the train. As soon as I saw it I thought it's was as ridiculous as the Albanians unveiling the memorial to William Walker. Basically it's election time and the government is doing all sorts of things to revive the usual rhetoric.
Having said that I do support the arrest of Hardinaj yet at the same time I am under no illusion that it's pointless as nothing will happen anyway. The historical narrative has long been written, the United States have created the 'independent state Kosovo' and that's it, really. There's nothing Serbia can do about it. There's definitely not going to be a war or any such thing, that's just media hyping things up.
Having said that I do support the arrest of Hardinaj yet at the same time I am under no illusion that it's pointless as nothing will happen anyway. The historical narrative has long been written, the United States have created the 'independent state Kosovo' and that's it, really. There's nothing Serbia can do about it. There's definitely not going to be a war or any such thing, that's just media hyping things up.
I'd be surprised if Trump has even heard of Kosovo before, or if he has even a basic understanding of the situation.
He was quite vocal about it during the war of Kosovo, criticizing Clinton for not intervening sooner.
Walker is a hero to Kosovo.
The point of Haradinaj is how it has been done. Serbia know that France won't sent him to Serbia, so it is all a political game (I mean, Serbia asked for the likes of Clinton, Blair and Chirak to be judged for war crimes). In Kosovo finally is to be open an international court for war crimes so all the proofs for war crimes should be sent there.
But still, the train. That's funny. Much ado about a train.
EU should be blamed the most here. Especially in Bosnia, all the situation with Dodik and RS and no reaction from them whatsoever. Then you have Nikolic coming here to celebrate with his pal Dodik the day of Republic of Srpska that is clearly against the consitution. EU's reaction to that? Their puppy Valentin Inzko just said that Dodik and Nikolic shouldn't do that and picked his 10 000 euro for doing nothing once again. I have no idea what is the point of EU representatives here.
The situation here is probably at it's lowest point since the war. What's sad is that people will choose the same people on elections again so it's fair to say we don't deserve much better anyway.
Interesting stuff happening in Balkan right now. In Kosovo, an ultra-left party becomes the biggest party after the last election, while the two parties who have lead Kosovo since the war, got a debacle in the election. PDK in particular (party of president Thaci) seems to have lost almost half of the senators, and their coalition with the fourth and fifth biggest parties (and 10 other smaller parties) seems to have got only 6 more deputies than VV (ultra left party). On the other hand, the other big coalition (party of historical president Rugova), for the first time isn't in the first two positions, despite that it was in a large coalition too. If is absolutely clear that VV will be the main actor in the Kosovan politics, and this is either going to go really good (I think so), or go really wrong. For what is worth, it is the only uncorrupted party in Kosovo, but at the same time, it is the only party who is really aggressive towards Serbian's behavior towards Kosovo. Serbia didn't want Haradinaj as prime minister of Kosove, but mark my word, they really would be loving him in that position the moment Vucic will meet Kurti in the negotiations. VV being totally uncorrupted means that also EU won't be able to make pressure on them, so interesting time.
In Serbia, things have gone even more interesting. Ex-prime minister Vucic won in a landslide the presidential election, which means that the position of president will get strengthened again. With the PM position open, a lot of people were expecting him to nominate Ivica Dacic (Milosevic's most trusted student), but in a very unorthodox move, Vucic has nominated Ana Brnabic as PM. If Brnabic becomes PM (likely going to happen now, Vucic has almost Erdogan-esque power in Serbia), Brnabic becomes the first gay PM in Eastern Europe. With Serbia having had homophobia problems for a long time, this is probably not going to go well, but it really is a move from Vucic that deserves every praise.
On Macedonia, the party who has been governing forever, go in opposition, with the leader of opposition (supported in a large scale by Albanian minority) becoming PM. VMRO-DPMNE have been quite bad for Macedonia IMO, insisting on stealing Greek's heritage (which in turn meant that Greece blocked Macedonia in everything), being widely corrupted, having a large dose of extreme right wing and being very influenced from Russia. The president tried for months to not allow the leader of the opposition become PM, but he had to surrender after the EU/US pressure. The change meant that an Albanian becomes speaker of the parliament, the first time the 25-30% minority has one of the three main positions in Macedonia.
In all three cases, it is clear that people want change, and hoping that it is happening for the good.
In Serbia, things have gone even more interesting. Ex-prime minister Vucic won in a landslide the presidential election, which means that the position of president will get strengthened again. With the PM position open, a lot of people were expecting him to nominate Ivica Dacic (Milosevic's most trusted student), but in a very unorthodox move, Vucic has nominated Ana Brnabic as PM. If Brnabic becomes PM (likely going to happen now, Vucic has almost Erdogan-esque power in Serbia), Brnabic becomes the first gay PM in Eastern Europe. With Serbia having had homophobia problems for a long time, this is probably not going to go well, but it really is a move from Vucic that deserves every praise.
On Macedonia, the party who has been governing forever, go in opposition, with the leader of opposition (supported in a large scale by Albanian minority) becoming PM. VMRO-DPMNE have been quite bad for Macedonia IMO, insisting on stealing Greek's heritage (which in turn meant that Greece blocked Macedonia in everything), being widely corrupted, having a large dose of extreme right wing and being very influenced from Russia. The president tried for months to not allow the leader of the opposition become PM, but he had to surrender after the EU/US pressure. The change meant that an Albanian becomes speaker of the parliament, the first time the 25-30% minority has one of the three main positions in Macedonia.
In all three cases, it is clear that people want change, and hoping that it is happening for the good.
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Not really sure that applies for Serbia, they picked Vucic after all, and he is so 1990s politician. He is your average politician that won every election since the war in every country here, chosen mostly by same old uneducated sheep.
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I think Macedonia's new government is key here. They'll push for a NATO membership now, as swiftly as possible. Eventually EU down the line, as well. They've already lost 10 years, literally. If that happens, together with Montenegro's recent NATO acceptance this will further isolate Serbia and the strong Russian influence there. This all depends largely on Greece and they probably won't make it easy but their position is not as strong as it used to be, plus the West will try to help, I think.
Bottom line is, Russia's influence in the region is being challenged. They'll react somehow.
Bottom line is, Russia's influence in the region is being challenged. They'll react somehow.
Meanwhile, Serbs all around Bosnia and Serbia celebrating their war "hero".
What specifically are they celebrating given his conviction ?
Not exactly celebrating, but giving him support. They are on the streets lately just when they are giving support to their war criminals.
A lot of Serbains (including parties both in Serbia and RS) still treat him as a hero. The Serbian president, PM and minister of foreign affairs gave mixed speeches after the verdict, and while they didn't call the verdict a political one, everyone against Serbia etc, they pretty much put that behind the lines, in the sense that 'we should not celebrate or cry today', and we should leave the past behind, people from other countries should be convicted etc. A bit of relativization from what was the life sentence for the person who made the biggest massacre in Europe after the second world war.
In both Karadzic and Mladic case, eventually the justice won, but it is a very delayed justice considering that they lived for 15 years in freedom (actually even protected from the state), despite that they were personally responsible for deaths of tens of thousand of people.
And even now in jail they have better accommodation than your average person from Bosnia or Serbia.
That was the big one, right at the end. The last verdict from the Hague about the balkan wars.
Holy shit!
'kinell. Can't make this shit up.
Yeah, who the hell gave him a conveniently accessible vial of poison for his sentencing hearing.
Makes you wonder what might transpire should their be a push to re-unite the top four as a condensed Yugoslavia. Their borders are all adjacent.
I believe most wars are about economics and read there were reasons for the Kosovo problem not just about race / religion and an article I read about Sarajevo said there was no problem there until the snipers started.
Similarly an SAS chap was in the Times about a decade ago saying as a spotter he called in air strikes against the Serb army approaching Srebenica and they were not interested leading him to think they wanted a humanitarian disaster.
He can't respond to your post since he is banned from the CE forum (at his own request).
Exactly.
feck a life sentence in a max-security prison, I'm chomping down on some cyanide.
Yeah I heard it on the radio this afternoon, at the time people thought he was play acting. Dutch Department of Justice is doing research as we speak, but they seem to be as clueless as anyone. This is defnitely one of the more absurd things I've seen.
Well it happened at the Nuremburg trials after WWII and I suspect the EU will investigate to see if anyone brought the poison in breach of the rules. It suggests a major breach.
Not one of those states would want to join the others. It is more nostalgia than anything else. Montenegro declared independence from Serbia - Montenegro union 10 years ago and there way no war or anything like that, while that happened a decade after Yugoslavia died. Macedonia also got separated without war. And the feck Bosnia would want to join Serbia.
Thing is, especially the oldies speak about Yugoslavia in good terms cause there were some good things there. Tito was a relatively benevolent dictator, school and medicine were free and everyone had a job. Additionally there was no big division between the rich and the Middle class. Now, in some of these countries things are better than ever, and while in the others (Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia) that probably isn't true, there was quite a lot of bad blood for anyone to seriously consider a new Yugoslavia.
About the last event, it is batshit crazy and could not believe when I saw it. How on Earth someone smuggled poison there is an interesting question.
Believe he already spent 13 years of those 20 in jail. Would've probably be out soon.
general Praljak, rest in peace.
I could go on about the the whole thing from today, situation in Bosnia, some myths about Tito Revan told, but maybe the best is not to.
I could go on about the the whole thing from today, situation in Bosnia, some myths about Tito Revan told, but maybe the best is not to.
Ban, the war criminal fan.