You're a fan of Gen. Praljak are you ? Interesting.
Balkan Discussion
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You're a fan of Gen. Praljak are you ? Interesting.
He may be a war criminal but god damn it he's Ban's war criminal!
I'm not a fan. Guy just killed himself in front of the cameras..
That goes for @JustAFan too.
Oh look, another one.
It would be interesting to hear how much do you know about the whole story, war and so on.
Yes I have also heard a lot looked back with affection on the Tito times.
I'm curious, where does your interest come from?
Is it due to being close, Venice?
Or something else?
Recently I discovered through wikipedia that in Bosnia there is an entity called Republika Srpska.
I have to admit that I had no idea of its existence. I was surprised by the border, divided into two halves, with the other Bosnian entity in the middle. What exactly happens in that region? Are cities occupied by Serbs, are they Muslim or Orthodox? Do they have their own laws? Do they have any kind of demand, as join Serbia or something similar?
I have to admit that I had no idea of its existence. I was surprised by the border, divided into two halves, with the other Bosnian entity in the middle. What exactly happens in that region? Are cities occupied by Serbs, are they Muslim or Orthodox? Do they have their own laws? Do they have any kind of demand, as join Serbia or something similar?
He is from Albania i think and studies/lives in Venice
I come from Kosovo although I live (mostly) in Venice.
It is the Serbian part of Bosnia. It is inhabited mostly by Serbs and is pretty much autonomous.
Thanks!
I didn't follow too much of the recent situation, but Croatian politicans are ridiculous these days, I cannot believe EU country can allow such a behaviour. They are openly defending war criminals, absolutely incredible that this shit happens still in 2017. What are they even trying to achieve, is it their racist behaviour they just cannot escape from, or are they actually still buying votess with this war shit?
I mean, I am not bothered by this at all, but it's incredible that these things are still happening around us. Let it go ffs, and try to act on some more important stuff, don't spend entire month making people hate each other even more.
It's established on the biggest genocide in Europe after second World War, and yes, it's pretty much country inside a country. Entity like that should never exist in first place considering on ehich way is established, but there you go. They would like to join Serbia, but I am not sure Serbia is fond of them that much considering they are very poor, and I doubt they would bring them anything except more powerty and debts. If it weren't for Bosniaks living in that part of the country, we(non Serbs) would like them to join Serbia too, because they are intentionally stopping this country from any development because they don't see it as their country. What's funny about all this is that they living, working and raising their kids in a country they don't want to develop.
I mean, I am not bothered by this at all, but it's incredible that these things are still happening around us. Let it go ffs, and try to act on some more important stuff, don't spend entire month making people hate each other even more.
It's established on the biggest genocide in Europe after second World War, and yes, it's pretty much country inside a country. Entity like that should never exist in first place considering on ehich way is established, but there you go. They would like to join Serbia, but I am not sure Serbia is fond of them that much considering they are very poor, and I doubt they would bring them anything except more powerty and debts. If it weren't for Bosniaks living in that part of the country, we(non Serbs) would like them to join Serbia too, because they are intentionally stopping this country from any development because they don't see it as their country. What's funny about all this is that they living, working and raising their kids in a country they don't want to develop.
Really wish they could do that. As Croatian, I'm sick of it, just let it go. If you want to live in a past, there is no future.
While there are many points in your posts I agreed, with you providing balance, you somehow managed in the end to make a totally unbalanced paragraph:
1) NATO didn't bomb Serbia 'just because they wanted to defend their country sovereignty'. They bombed Serbia in order to prevent a genocide and to end an ethnic cleansing. Serbia - both armies and paramilitary force backed from government - killed around 10k Albanian civils, raped 30k women, burned tens of thousands of houses, deported 800k-1m outside of Kosovo (as a Macedonian you should know that, considering that Macedonia actually opened the borders for refugees) and around as much within Kosovo. And yet somehow, they were defending their sovereignty by burning houses, deporting people and killing kids.
2) The insurgency in Macedonia was ended in a very good way. The entire conflict took the lives of only 150-250 people, which is 100 times less than the conflict in Kosovo, and 1000 times less than the one in Bosna. Albanians were heavily discriminated (they are around 25% of the population, but couldn't even speak their language) and rebelled. NATO prevented Macedonia to get a total victory which likely would have just caused a bigger war in the following years, considering the Albanian population in Macedonia, and the very unstable states of Albania and Kosovo. Instead, a compromise was reached with neither side feeling that they have won or lost, and while not loving each other, people have lived in a relative harmony with the biggest political problem since then being the 'name conflict' with Greece, rather than the conflict between people, with no major conflict having happened since then and there has been no will neither from Macedonian Albanians, nor from the two Albanian neighbor countries for Macedonia to get divided.
3) For balance, you should have mentioned cases of Russians invading other countries, when the lives of people there weren't endangered at all (like in Ukraine/Crimea and to some degree in Georgia) not giving a shit not only about UN and international law but also about direct deals between countries (you give us nukes, we won't touch you Ukraine; at least not until we decide to invade you). Or them poisoning the democratically elected president of Ukraine. Or Russia, financing and organizing a coup d'etat as far away as in Montenegro.
1) NATO didn't bomb Serbia 'just because they wanted to defend their country sovereignty'. They bombed Serbia in order to prevent a genocide and to end an ethnic cleansing. Serbia - both armies and paramilitary force backed from government - killed around 10k Albanian civils, raped 30k women, burned tens of thousands of houses, deported 800k-1m outside of Kosovo (as a Macedonian you should know that, considering that Macedonia actually opened the borders for refugees) and around as much within Kosovo. And yet somehow, they were defending their sovereignty by burning houses, deporting people and killing kids.
2) The insurgency in Macedonia was ended in a very good way. The entire conflict took the lives of only 150-250 people, which is 100 times less than the conflict in Kosovo, and 1000 times less than the one in Bosna. Albanians were heavily discriminated (they are around 25% of the population, but couldn't even speak their language) and rebelled. NATO prevented Macedonia to get a total victory which likely would have just caused a bigger war in the following years, considering the Albanian population in Macedonia, and the very unstable states of Albania and Kosovo. Instead, a compromise was reached with neither side feeling that they have won or lost, and while not loving each other, people have lived in a relative harmony with the biggest political problem since then being the 'name conflict' with Greece, rather than the conflict between people, with no major conflict having happened since then and there has been no will neither from Macedonian Albanians, nor from the two Albanian neighbor countries for Macedonia to get divided.
3) For balance, you should have mentioned cases of Russians invading other countries, when the lives of people there weren't endangered at all (like in Ukraine/Crimea and to some degree in Georgia) not giving a shit not only about UN and international law but also about direct deals between countries (you give us nukes, we won't touch you Ukraine; at least not until we decide to invade you). Or them poisoning the democratically elected president of Ukraine. Or Russia, financing and organizing a coup d'etat as far away as in Montenegro.
Good post Revan.
It was done in a hurry, my post that is, maybe unbalanced but it's the truth.
They defended their country from insurgents attacks, yeah there were atrocities, but they were not one sided, there are awful people on both sides. Maybe you should try and watch some of the videos of ethnic Albanians burning and demolishing churches and monasteries centuries old. You are trying to paint it like the big bad serbians against the hopeless albanians, it wasn't like that, albanians targeted serbian civilians also. How do you think the conflict begun? Do you think Albanians sent post cards? You are also overlooking the big albanian nationalism, and their dream of big Albania, they are nothing like the victims you are trying to portray them.
And no, we didn't open our borders voluntarily, it was under pressure of the West. Our late president Trajkovski had a famous speech, where he asked the hypocrites of the west to bring their planes and take the refugees in their own countries, do you know how our president ended? And bang two years later Macedonia has it's own war, of course Albanians ''freedom fighters'' funded by NATO attacking another country.
Now you are spouting bullshit. First of all, you can't compare the Bosnia war with the conflict in Macedonia. The war in Bosnia was a war between two/three nations, one fighting for independence, the others for part of the same. Comparing casualties and saying ended in a good way, is laughable. No conflict that claims the lifes of fathers and sons ends in a good way.
And no, Albanians weren't 25% percent of the population, today they are, thanks to the many that came in here as refugees and stayed on. And to say they were heavily discriminated is laughable, if you compare the rights Macedonians enjoyed in Albania for example.
The insurgency in Macedonia was ended in a very good way? Do you know that the same ones that came as refugees, the same terrorists that fought the Serbians fought against our government? Did they fight for rights also? Do you know the atrocities this same terrorist committed against civilians? I doubt that.
Do you know that there are Macedonians in the souteast of Albania, that don't enjoy even 1/2 of the rights Albanians do in Macedonia? Why didn't NATO bomb Albania also?
Maybe you should try and read the atrocities committed by Albanian ''freedom fighters'' here, now sitting in the parliament?
I live in Macedonia, and I have Albanians coworkers, and the general sentiment of the conflict leaves bitter taste in both sides. People realize it was not about rights, it was about territory, driven by nationalist politicians who dreamed of Big Albania, the same kind of people that dreamed of Big Serbia in their side.
And no, there is no name problem, just the way the world works, the bigger more powerful guy here (Greece) blackmailing the weaker one while you preach morality and justice.
That is cringeworthy, talking about Russians. Democratically elected presidents? US has topped so many governments, leaders and interfered in other countries affairs in the last 50 years it's laughable to speak about the Russians.
The West backed Neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine, and you have the voice to speak about Russians, they have their own people living in Ukraine at the end of the day. What in the name of God are the west doing there?
Albanians were for most part victims. Before the war, there was a demilitarization of Albanians, when all the guns were taken out of people, with the Albanian police getting fired. When KLA started, they didn't even had guns. Serbia on the other hand, had the biggest military from all Yugoslavian countries, and they used it against both KLA and Albanian civils.
There is also true that Albanian did war crimes, but nowhere near as much as Serbian army/paramilitaries, and I think that different standards should be taken into consideration for guerrila groups who didn't even had a central authority to that of a military of a relatively powerful state.
The dream for big Albania has been more a product of Serbian rather than a national agenda. If someone would have made a referendum in the eighties 'do Albanians in Kosovo want to join Albania' the vast majority would have voted no. Heck, it is very possible that even today they would vote no.
Why not compare it? And no shit Sherlock, every conflict is bad, but you have to look at the scale. If NATO didn't push Trajkovski to apply a wise policy, the number of victims would have been so much higher, there was possibility of Kosovo, Albania and likely Bulgaria entering the war, and who knows how it would have happened. Would you have taken 100 ties as much victims and a large part of Macedonia getting divided just to not give amnesty to Albanian 'terrorists' and not allow them to speak their own language?
How much they were then? I do not know for refugees staying there. It just makes no sense considering that Kosovo got liberated, and there are large cultural differences between Kosovan Albanians and Macedonian Albanians. Refugees stayed in countries like Switzerland and Germany, but why on Earth they would have stayed in Macedonia?
Fair point about rights of Macedonians in Albania. The cultural rights of minorities on Albania are non-existent and it should change.
Relatively speaking, it ended in a good way. Less than 100 civils were killed in a country which had a very large mixed population (people of both ethnicity live in the same buildings in Skopje). It could have easily ended in 100 times as much victims, it could have easily ended with a divided Macedonia, it could have easily put other countries in war, it could have easily been a clusterfeck. Instead, it was an insurgency, which took the lives of less civils than individual massacres in Kosovo, and the entire number of people killed was less than individual battles in Kosovo.
Of course, it was an almost war so it left bitter taste, but since Ohrid deal, people have lived in relative harmony. It could have ended much much worse.
A lot of that has to do with Gruevski trying to get part of Greece history (Alexander and all that). Macedonians should decide first if they are ancient Macedonians or Slavic population. It seems that the problems is getting solved now that the government has changed.
As I said they poisoned a president in a country for which they had made a deal not only to not touch them but to protect them. Having Russians there when they weren't threatened at all is not a justification for annexing part of Ukraine.
What about them sponsoring a coup d'etat in Montenegro? Were there Russians people that they were defending too?
I never denied there weren't victims, horrible crimes were committed by both sides, but from what I've been reading through old papers Albanians targeted Serbian civilians from the start, and are no better than the ones on the other side.
They didn't even had guns? Do you know where the majority of the weapons provided for the wars (Kosovo/Macedonia) came? Albanians weapon depots that were raided in 1997, what demiilitarization are you talking about? Albanians are notorious for their weapons trade and to this day, there are illegal weapons depots discovered all over Kosovo/Macedonia.
Yes Serbia had the biggest military from all the ex-YU, they are a warring nation, but Kosovo was part of their country since the ages, it's their sacred land way before Albania, or US even existed, why shouldn't they protect it's own sovereignty against insurgents that attack their police officers and civlians also. Albanians being the victims it's only one side of the story.
Do not mix the Serbian army and the paramilitaries, the most of the Serbia army was mainly the former JNA, which was an army decorated for it's discipline and structure. Paramilitaries do not operate the same way and as I said before, horrible people played a part on both sides. The story is, both sides provoked each other until the army got involved and pushed them back, then NATO bombed an independent country that was trying to protect its borders.
The dream of big Albania was very alive through the wars, there was a request from Albanian politicians during the negotiations with our government for territories, whether their targets shifted now is irrelevant, as every reasonable Albanian should target their unification in the EU, not by the means of war.
Well sitting on your laptop and typing how it all ended well is borderline stupid, there are victims families that as of this day don't know what happened to their families, or why were they killed.
And how the feck is it similar when a country (Bosnia) fights for it's independence and a bunch of terrorist attacking police officers from ambushes, massacre civilians to try and dislocate them? That was a thank you for Macedonia opening it's borders for the refugees from Kosovo?
If NATO didn't push Macedonia, we would have ended with the insurgents when we clinched them in Aracinovo, if Albania didn't interfere in the Kosovo war, why would they interfere here? Kosovo? You mean the KFOR forces in Kosovo? And what the feck with Bulgaria? They had nothing to do with it.
I'm not sure how much were they, we don't even know now, considering a population census hasn't been done in ages. The general feeling is that now they are 25%, but you need to factor there were refugees that stayed after the crisis, and their fast natality (birth rate). I've seen info of them being 10% in 1993-1995, but I'm not sure.
It's no fair point mate, it's the truth that shows the hypocrisy and the absurd in all that. The Albanians in Kosovo rebelled for better rights and better life i presume, in reality Yugoslavia did more for them then their own country for their own citizens. The whole Yugoslavia provided for Kosovo to build it from scratch, the mines, the factories, the hospitals, it was a national policy. Yes it wasn't ideal, but to portray them as the victims is misleading.
Mixed population? What country on the Balkans has a one nationality population? Besides Albanians there aren't many significant minorities. The war serves as for demonizing Albanians in Macedonians eyes, and many Albanians feel like they were used for political purposes. The ordinary man go by their business as usual, I have friends who are Albanians who are open minded and don't really give a feck about politics. Albanians in Macedonia enjoy the most rights than any minority on the Balkans.
Comparing how fewer victims on conflict had to the other is a very poor way how it all ended and impacted the nation. Serbians are a warring nation, Albanians also, Macedonia was just a young country fighting it's way through transition. A country that opened the doors to Albanians when they needed help, and that how they repaid us.
We have lived in a relative harmony since we were and are very different to the serbian/albanians. We are a country fighting it's war from transition against poverty and better life, it was the same before 2001, it just left a black mark, and lost us years.
I am no Gruevski supporter, but he didn't try to steal Greece's history, he was just a headless moron who played on the nationalist card. That is our history longer than him or any current politician. Whether we are ancient or slovenian macedonians, we've been macedonians since we know about ourselves. Different people mixed and merged and whatever the feck happened we are what we are today. Whether greek man and women only fecked greeks and stayed the pure greek folks from the Sparta days is irrelevant. They know themselves as Greeks. Whether we are ancient or the slovenians that came on these lands and merged or both is not important to me. Macedonians have been distinguished as a different folk to greeks, bulgarians or serbs through history. But it's all up to debate, and frankly unimportant, the story is that one country want's to choose how another will be called, and it's frankly absurd.
And yes the new government is more open minded on this question, and thank feck for that, whether it writes one name or the other on the passport is not important to me, I am what I am, and the sooner it ends the sooner we continue our lives.
Do you know how absurd it looks you bitching about Ukraine and Montenegro, to try and balance the countless times the west sponsored coup d'etats in other countries, deposing presidents and killing them? That was the point, Russian's are amateur compared to the US/its allies.
The papers were wrong then (well, there was a political agenda going on). In the start, no-one targeted civilians. Considering that in the cities Albanians and Serbians lived in the same buildings and neighborhoods, a lot more people would have died if anyone targeted civilians.
Demilitarization of Kosovo. There were no guns in Albanian hands when the war started.
And Albanians claim that Kosovo was theirs before slavic population came in Balkans. Seriously, who cares who has been first?
Thing is, since Turks left, Kosovo was given to Serbia as part of Russia-Turkish deal. Turkey lost the war against Russia, and so they gave Kosovo to Serbia. Every census done since then (most of them from Serbs themselves) put Albanian population as a majority, with historians actually claiming that they were a large majority. That Kosovo was part of Stefan Nemanja's empire no one is doubting, but that is almost 1000 years ago.
A lot of Serbians admit that there has been a Kosovo myth. If Kosovo was so important, why it was by far the least developed part of Yugoslavia?
JNA did a lot of massacres (probably not as much as paramilitaries). There were so many cases of deliberately stopping male population, and then killing all of them.
When a country starts killing its own citizens for fun, I think they lose any right to actually rule that part of territory. Maybe it is just me who thinks that.
I admit that many Albanians want a big Albania, but that is pretty stupid. You might know better than me here, but I don't think that during Albanian insurgency in Macedonia, anyone asked for independence or to join Albania/Kosovo. It was more about rights than anything else.
Yes, it is shitty that people died, but what I said was that it ended much better than it could have gone. Considering the mixed population, the tension, the total instability of neighboring countries, it could have ended in a bloodshell. On grand scheme of things, 150-250 people killed is hardly that big. Sure, it sucks in individual cases.
And they would have left for Kosovo/Albania, and then come back, probably come back stronger considering that there were many people who wanted to continue the war. Albania was also preparing to support them (IIRC), which actually put Bulgaria to mention that they won't just stay and watch. There were a lot of KLA in Kosovo who had the will to intervene.
The NATO policy ended things as good as it could have been and since then Macedonia has been stable. Sorry matey, but you can't ignore 25% of the population, call them terrorist and hope that problems go away. Some compromises are needed even if in the heat of things they might look wrong (amnesty for insurgents).
There is no way that it could have gone from 10% to 25% in 20 years. They need to breed like rabbits for it to happen. As far as I am aware, no refugees actually stopped in Macedonia when Kosovo got liberated. Could have been that the info in '95 was wrong?
Kosovo was by far the most underdeveloped and under-invested part in Yugoslavia. And for most part Albanians were heavily discriminated (being the only significant non-Slavic population).
But still it was okay and people loved Yugoslavia (it was actually much better than in Albania where Enver Hoxha was North Korean-like dictator). But when Serbia unilaterally and totally unconstitutionally removed autonomy, fired people in hundreds of thousands and started a regime of apartheid, shit happened.
Constitutionally, Serbs in Kosovo have far more rights (including reserved seats in senate, reserved ministries in government, and Serbian language being in parity with Albanian in the entire territory despite that Serbian population is less than 10%). Macedonian now-opposition and the president bitch about Albanian language having parity with Macedonian, but tell me a country in Europe when there is a 25% minority (language-wise) and that isn't the case. In Belgium and Switzerland it doesn't seem to be a problem, neither in Kosovo, why this is a problem in Macedonia.
And also trying to assimilate them. Which while it might be the best solution long-term, people typically do not like to not be allowed to speak their own language.
Tough shit, since Ohrid deal, there doesn't seem to be problems between people there.
You can't be both Slavic population and have Alexander the great as main national hero, and call everything either Alexander of Phillip. They lived 1000 year before Slavic population reached Balkan. Also, ancient Macedonia geographically was more in current Greece rather than current Macedonia, which for Greece is problematic cause it looks that Macedonia has territorial aspiration (I don't buy it, btw).
Of course, there is the possibility that Macedonians actually come from ancient Macedonians and just that they language has changed (being surrounded from Slavic nations), but more likely you're Slavic population. Isn't Macedonian very similar to Bulgarian, and you can have conversations with Serbians? Far different to Alexander who spoke Greek.
It was more with 'things are international law, until they aren't.' Russia - the defender of international law - actually invaded and annexed two countries, but they criticized NATO for stopping an ethnic cleansing cause by doing so they broke international law. Thing is, strong countries don't give a shit about international law, for most part it is to further their own agenda (Iraq war, Crimea, Cuba before Castro, coup d'etat in Montenegro) with occassional interventions which might actually be right and don't give them anything (Kosovo, when US didn't win anything and so you can't say it intervened for selfish reasons).
Political agenda? Yeah there's always one. The conflict didn't start over night, it is a well known fact that there was an unrest in Kosovo since Tito died, Serbians were targeted as a minority therefor Milosevic's famous speech ''niko ne sme da vas bije''. The impatience was building for years, there were isolated incidents. I don't know how you can say no-one targeted civilians, I've heard from people who had lived through it, on both sides, and they said the same. Both sides did the ugly part.
To add to it, my grandfather is a retired mayor in the JNA and was called up to Kosovo for the student unrest in 1981, the situation was a much more complex than it appears. I've heard a lot of stories about shit being done by Albanians, so it's hard for me to portray them as victims.
Don't believe that for a second. Demilitarization is apparently done several times, yet there are weapons being found all the time. You can say that 100 times, still it's not truth, and anyone reading it can take it with a pinch of salt.
I agree, it's irrelevant who got there first but we were talking about specific time, and it was under recognized borders. Who said it's so important? For hardcore serbians yes, but it was largely an industrial complex, but it it was what it was in 1945 and in the ex-YU all members of the federation contributed to developing it, that's a fact.
There is no excuse for killing civilians, I don't want you to misunderstand me, but it's not all black and white. I've known for massacres, but not from the JNA. And I've read lots of reports where even serbians could not distinguish who was what. And I guess that's part of the guerrilla warfare.
There are many more civil ways to ask for rights, rather than killing. And yes there were suggestions/requests from albanian politicians for territories.
They were surrounded and after the pressure from NATO, they were transported away from the siege of Aracinovo and into Kosovo. Talk about neutrality and justice. KLA fighters from Kosovo were fighting in Macedonia, therefor nobody knows hos many were their and their casualties. Albania would have done something by that point if they were capable.
Nobody was ignoring them, and whether it was 25 od 5% they deserve the same rights as anyone. I see you like to paint the picture like they were discriminated so much they had to go to war, it's not true. As you admitted Macedonians in Albania don't even come close to enjoying the same rights.
Well yeah.
Jokes asside they have a much higher birth rate then you regular macedonian. It's a well know fact. And yes they are estimated to be 25% today, and they were far less in 1995.Not really, nationalism was very unrecognizable in Yugoslavia.
It is not a problem for me. Not the slightest, opposition politician just trying to fuel their narrative. Ordinary people don't care, and albanians are speaking their language without problem.
Who is trying to assimilate who? Nobody is trying to do that, and they've been speaking their language since I known albanians.
Alexander the Great in not our main national hero, there are no main or lesser ones. We are a Macedonians, whether we come from one folk or another, it can't be proven with certainty. People have been mixing with others for centuries. We speak a language close to the slavic ones, but the two brothers who wrote down our alphabet and are considered as fathers of our education are born in Thesaloniki, as macedonians. And no, the city where Alexander was born in a city near Thesaloniki, by the name of Pela, that territory until the early 20th century and after the Greek Civil war was inhabited by macedonians, whether we are slavic, ancient or the the coctail that followed.
We don't have territorial aspirations to Greece, any reasonable men should hope for one european country without borders, otherwise everybody has something that belongs to the neighbour. Macedonia.
There is no possibility bar few rare cases like the Greek, that an ancient nation. It's a long process, and I presume people who lived on the same territory, mixed and we are the result of that. Alexander was not greek, the greeks were describing him and his father as barbarians, and different to greeks. Yes they probably spoke Greek, but didn't everyone on these lands?
Yes, we all speak a very similar languages, Macedonians, Serbians, Croats, Bosnians, Bulgarian, Slovenians. All are part of a group called, South Slavic languages, other group are, West and East.
What do you mean didn't win anything? Now they have a military base on the doorstep of Serbian, named Bondsteel and there have been lots of stories of shady staff about that place. And please don't make me list all the countries Nato have bombed, intervened or sponsored a coup d'etat. It's a lot longer list than the Russian list.
Moving this discussion to Balkan discussion thread. My point was more that for someone who provided balance, you finished with a totally unbalanced post. Considering that the current discussion has not much to do with Russia - bar the last paragraph - better to continue there.
@Kostov @Revan
Epic use of the multi-quote function. Best I've seen since the days when @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber used to roam the footy threads.
Epic use of the multi-quote function. Best I've seen since the days when @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber used to roam the footy threads.
I'll move the posts shortly.
Using Sloba's words to argue something won't give you any points, but anyway. Since Tito died, Serbs wanted to withdraw the autonomy of Kosovo, while Albanians wanted Kosovo to be a republic within Yugoslavia. So, you are right on that. You should also know that Serbia organized a coup d'etat in the parliament of Kosovo to illegally withdraw the autonomy which escalated things. Then there was a regime of terror until the war started.
But hey, they were just trying to defend the sovereignty of their Jerusalem. A Jerusalem they never gave a shit about until it became a good reason to continue their nationalism.
Some shit done, some shit invented, like when they killed 6 young people and blamed Albanians on it, to the point of calling a security council meeting about it. Things were quite complex for sure, and both sides (Serbs and Albanians) pretend to simplify them and put into black and white context.
Every Albanian who had a weapon was called into police station to volunteer give them. Most did, some didn't (and got the shit out of them beaten). Albanian police were fired, and Albanians weren't going anymore in the army, making Kosovo a very demilitarized country. Of course, borders with other states existed, and some people managed to hide their weapons, especially in mountain regions.
At the same time, the population of Kosovo contributed a lot in Yugoslavia (more than they got back), among others having the biggest mine in the entire state.
JNA (let's call it from now Serbian army considering what JNA was in 89-99) did massacres, and their paramilitaries did more and were close to them. Serbs also didn't try too hard to distinguish between KLA and civils. If you were Albanian, you were a fair game to get beaten and tortured.
You should know this better than me, but I am pretty sure that Macedonian Albanians did the civil thing until war happened. In fact, until then, the biggest political party (which didn't enter in the war) was doing exactly that and totally ignored. Banning language and flag kind of helped escalated things, I guess.
As I said, there were a lot of people in Kosovo and Albania willing to enter the war, and arm people there. Albania wouldn't have entered as a country, but was more than capable of providing guns, ammunition, officers and so on. Any epilogue which didn't end with a political solution, would have just postponed the conflict, and inevitably, the conflict would have come back.
Same rights as turks and co. yes, same rights as Macedonians no. When there is a significant minority, it usually has a lot of rights (look at non-German speaking Swiss, or non Dutch speaking Belgs) and usually the language is on parity with the main population.
Well yeah.
I also think that they have a higher migration rate, which might balance things, but it is more a guess. Also, in 1994 census, they were 22.9% of the population. Heck, if you go as far as in 1948 census, they still were 17%, far away from your claimed 5-10% in mid-nineties.
But God forbid if they do that while leading the parliament (it has actually happened in post-war Kosovo for Serbs to lead the parliament in Serbian language)! The refusal of the president to sign the law, a lot of protests against it, and the total rejection of the now-opposition (until they actually realized that they cannot ever make a government without having Albanians who gave them their votes) is very interesting. No excuse this time for Albanians not asking nicely, I guess.
Well, Macedonia back then. Like not allowing universities in Albanian, not allowing Albanian language in any government document, or not allowing the usage of the Albanian flag.
Then why on Earth every second road, hospital and the main airport were called like that. A bit similar like Montenegro starting calling everything Skenderbegus, or Kosovans naming everything Tsar Lazar.
Is the language close to Slavic ones, or almost a dialect of Bulgarian? Being totally honest, I kind of agree with your main point in this paragraph. In fact, I think that all Balkanian people (bar Greeks) are quite similar to each other, and the language has been more a bi-product of geopolitical situation rather than actually based on pure blood like politicians love to claim.
Alexander is known as being Greek (like Macedonia being a Greek state) but there are serious doubts about that. Like Greeks calling them barbars, and Macedonian not playing in Olympics like every other Greek state/city. It is quite possible that Macedonians have been a (or a similar) Illyrian-Thracian population (Alexander's mum was Illyrian, he refers to people of Skopje as his people, he spent a significant part of his childhood with Illyrian tribes). About everyone speaking Greek, that is not true. Illyrian-Thracian population (which more likely are similar to German or Slavic people, in the sense of different totally not united tribes, rather than two homogeneous different people like Albanian historians claim) were arguably more than Greeks, and they spoke dialects of the same language which was totally different from Greek. Anyway, serious studies are needed to un-Greek Alexander.
It is interesting from scientific point of view if Macedonians are for most part ancient Macedonians who lost their language, or Slavic people. Likely a mix of both. It would be so batshit crazy if Macedonians and Albanian Macedonians are not that far away when it comes to blood. And all nationalists would make suicide.
They could have built the same one in Albania, Macedonia or Croatia. They have nuclear weapons in Turkey, ffs. A military base in a very unimportant region (Kosovo doesn't even have access to sea) when they could have easily built the same one in Albania (which is much better positioned strategically) is in my opinion hard to justify as the reason why they spend billions in Kosovo, bombed Serbia for three months and essentially sponsored Kosovo's independence. And well, when it came to NATO bombing Serbia, actually Tony Blair (together with Albright) kind of pushed Clinton into it. Poor British, they didn't even get a military camp for doing so.
Thanks.
It's the same as the dialect spoken in Southwest Bulgaria. We can understand almost everything, if used to the pronunciation.
The other Slavic languages are not really that close. I can understand them (some more than others) as much as an Italian understands Spanish.
Thanks! I don't speak Serbian, but my father speaks it very well (in the level of a native speaker) and he always struggled to understand Macedonians every time we were there. I also think (if my memory is not wrong) that he found Slovenian being closer to Serbo-Croatian, than Macedonian to Serbo-Croatian.
It is very interesting about Macedonian and Bulgarian. It is a shame that there never were independent studies about the population, origin and languages of non-Greek Balkanian nations, which in my opinion would show that they have more in common than divisive things with each other. It would also reduce the nationalism in the populations and the pseudo-history taught in the schools.
Aaargh the Chief vs Ekeke multi quote battles! Those were the days. Epic. A thing of beauty
I agree. The pseudo-history and nationalism are as much the product as they are the reason though. You can't even ask those questions, let alone examine them. It's a vicious cycle that will probably never end.
It's probably too hard to do it without cooperation from within. Nobody on the outside cares enough for that.
Do we get some kind of trophy, a plate maybe, or is it like Arsenal's 4th place trophy?
It's not about gaining points, it was about showing that there was trouble, and Albanians weren't saints. Civilian serbians were targeted, and Milosevic used it as a pretext in his rhetorics. Slobodan first gave vote to Kosovo and Vojvodia like every republic, but with his puppet leader so he can have majority in the YU councel. It was one of the main reasons of the separation of the Croats/Bosniaks/Slovenians/Macedonians. I never denied there was oppression and crimes, but my issue is you portraying Albanians like some kind of saints and only the victims. Here on the Balkans there are no innocents, especially not Albanians.
The boss of my girlfriend is an electrical engineer, who worked in a mine in Kosovo before the war/at the start of it, he has witnessed UCK fighters coming in and selecting serbians to be taken away, never to be seen again. Shit happened there as I said, and awful people were taking part on both sides.
They were under international law defending their country, NATO bombed them without a UN resolution, targeting civilians building in Belgrade. You can't tell me it was all okey. NATO practically made victims of both sides, while breaking international law. Whether that is a Jerusalem for them or not, is irrelevant.
That works both ways actually, live we see it now in Syria also. The story I mentioned is directly from my grandfather, and to be frank he doesn't like serbians no more than the albanians, no reason for him to lie.
Yeah that's one side of it, the thing is, after Albania's weapon depots were raided, nobody knew who had what and how much. There were large amount of weapons in albanian hands, that contributed to both the Kosovo war, and the 2001 conflict here. As I said it's one side of the story, Albanians were discriminated from the serbians officials under Milosevic, but Kosovo being demilitarized is far from the truth, it was just a question of when and where.
All parts of Jugoslavija contributed, in different ways, Kosovo was far behind everybody else, but under Jugoslavija (post 45) it was a national strategy to try and improve it. There were efforts being done, but it was a slow process, even Macedonia can say the same about what they contributed and what they got back, it just didn't work that way.
There is one thing you should now about Jugoslavija, as the older say, in Jugoslavija the army was for the Serbians, the politics were for the Croats. JNA cesed to exist after the fall of Jugoslavija, 1992, and it shouldn't be put on the old, true JNA. The old JNA was a decorated army with discipline and structure, something every jugoslav was proud of. As for the Kosovo war as I already said, there were paramilitary groups associated with the army and nobody knew who was doing what, it a theme in all of the Balkan wars. Saying the army didn't do that/or this is a long shot from me, since it was a mess and nobody can claim certainties.
I do, but the conflict came as a surprise mainly due to nobody felt that anyone in the country was discriminated to that extent so they can go to war. It was a shock, and it still is. You even contradict yourself in here, if they did all they could by civil ways, how is it nobody knew about this new leaders before then? How does the biggest albanian party stayed clear at the beginning and condemned the crimes? Why didn't they lead the conflict? The truth is, they didn't do everything to try and resolve it peacefully.
That's why I said, macedonians felt betrayed by Albanians, we helped them and their relatives where the Kosovo war raged, and they thanked us by attacking our cities.
The thing is, maybe you are right by mentioning Albania, but do not forget Serbia, they were still a significant player on the Balkans as the biggest army, and it could have resulted in a big war, a war that wouldn't end with a victory, you are right I agree, but it was unfairly and against all laws and morals of fighting.
You are not comparing the Balkans with Swiss/German states are you? Keep in mind it was 2001, even Macedonians were not enjoying the rights they should never mind minorities. You should compare the situation in the region like I said minorites in Albania/Bulgaria/Serbia even Greece, you will see the right picture.
I think we all have the same migration rate, maybe ethnic macedonians have even higher in the last few years. Yeah those are the percentage that ago on Wikipedia, and there were flaws with the census and changes that counted those who lived abroad and those who didn't. Also there are places where census was done and ethnic Bosniacs are counted as Albanians, and due to the migrations from Kosovo to Macedonia and vice versa there have been manipulations with the numbers ever since. The last government ignored the census for different reasons, but take those numbers with a pinch of salt. Even that number of 10% I mentioned was speculative and you shouldn't hold on that for the same reasons.
They are speaking in Albanian in the parlament for years, it's just that the president of the parliament is albanian now. The president is just a puppet and does what he's been told. It does not paint the picture of the situation, they are just playing politic games. The now opposition tried to make government with albanians but were rejected due to the albanian party doing what EU told them. Now they are butt hurt and doing stupid things while trying to fuel nationalism. No excuse for Albanians to threaten conflict again, nobody wants that, nor there is need of one. There were efforts for one in 2015, and macedonians and albanians pledged for peace, people just want to get with their lifes.
It was not a reason to go killing and fighting, otherwise all the Balkan countries would be at war. It was a for other purposes, and a lot of the Albanians who supported it feel betrayed and used now.
Well it's not true that every road, hospital is called like that. There isn't a hospital called like that, our biggest clinic is called Mother Teresa, you might know her, she was albanian.
The Airoport and the main highway were called alexander the great, mainly for provocation to Greece by the previous government. Now the highway to Greece is renamed Friendship, and the airoport is called Skopje Internation Airport.
It's close to Slavic, not a dialect to Bulgarian. I personally feel the serbian as a closer one than the Bulgarian, but it depends of which part of Macedonia you come I guess.
Alexander is known of being a barbarian to the Greeks. Macedonians are a different ethnic group to the greeks, same as the Illyrian/Thracian people. I meant Greek was considered as language of the free world back then, the Greeks are famous for their culture while the others are described as barbarians. I meant it as a language of the educated world, Alexander's teacher being Aristotle. Not sure about the Albanians being descendant of the Illyrian population, in my opinion that is no more true than Macedonians being the descendant of the ancient world.
As we agree mostly, we are probably a mix. Either way, who the feck cares?! And yeah we are the same shitty kind of people I guess.
As we joke with my friends, it feels like the worst of the world were put on the Balkans to live and kill each other.
Well they couldn't have built one in Serbia that is for sure. As I said there are lots of shady stuff rumored to happening there. From terrorist being tortured to drug being transported. They also had interest in the mining industry as we already mentioned and as we know Americans don't do anything without their personal interest. So don't worry as soon as that changes they will find another friend.
If you keep it up you may get paid a visit by the Chief himself.
Thank feck for this....
Macedonia and Greece: Deal after 27-year row over a name
Greece has reached a deal on the future name of its northern neighbour, which called itself Macedonia at the break-up of the former Yugoslavia.
After years of protests and seemingly endless diplomacy, they have settled on the name Republic of North Macedonia, or Severna Makedonija in Macedonian.
The aim of the deal is to remove Greece's block on its neighbour's bid to join Nato and the European Union. But first it will need to be approved by the Macedonian people and Greek parliament.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44401643
Macedonia and Greece: Deal after 27-year row over a name
Greece has reached a deal on the future name of its northern neighbour, which called itself Macedonia at the break-up of the former Yugoslavia.
After years of protests and seemingly endless diplomacy, they have settled on the name Republic of North Macedonia, or Severna Makedonija in Macedonian.
The aim of the deal is to remove Greece's block on its neighbour's bid to join Nato and the European Union. But first it will need to be approved by the Macedonian people and Greek parliament.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44401643
Cue outraged Bulgarians demanding the name West Bulgaria. Watching Balkan people argue about territories and names on Facebook is a favourite past-time of mine. Love the region and the people, though!
Love the region and the people, though!The president of Macedonia has said that he doesn't accept the deal and so will try to block it. He's a cnut.
And it gets even more complicated now. The Greek government of Alexis Tsipras will have a vote of no confidence in the following days, because of the deal they made with Macedonian PM for the name of Macedonia.
Essentially, the opposition in both sides aren't happy with the deal. Translation: they're cnuts.
Essentially, the opposition in both sides aren't happy with the deal. Translation: they're cnuts.
Yeah, I can't see anyone being happy with that.
Care to be more specific? What do you think they shouldn’t be happy with?
That's what oppositions parties do. Try to sabotage and put a negative spin on everything the government tries to implement. Has it ever been any different?
It is pretty sad if they manage to obstruct this though. Especially for Macedonia, who have been blocked into becoming a member of NATO and starting the negotiations for EU membership.
For Greece it won't change nothing. Hoping that Zaev and Tsipras win this battle. Zaev to me looks easily the best leader an ex-Yugoslavian (not counting Slovenia and Croatia) has had in a while.
I don't agree that it changes nothing for Greece. Here's the thing, the reality is that a vast majority of the populace are fairly nationalistic and don't want a solution. Or, I should say, they don't want a solution that's based on realistic options. They are against a deal that is technically significantly better than the status quo.
Therefore any deal the Greek government reaches will be seen as a massive concession and a defeat, even if it isn't one. The Greek government can't win and it will cost them significantly, either in the form of early elections/vote of no confidence or in the next scheduled elections. And further political instability and "rocking of the boat" is the last thing Greece needs as it's trying to rebuild its economy and free itself from the straight-jacket of IMF/EFSF funding. So the ramifications can be pretty big for Greece as well.
Generally a deal is not a thing that any Greek government wants to do, for that reason. But both sides have been forced to the table by the Americans who are demanding a resolution on the matter, or else they will force one. NATO expansion in the Balkans is becoming an important thing for them.
I personally see this deal as a good thing, but in reality I know that both sides would prefer it to fail so long as the other side gets blamed for it. Which is a sad state of affairs.
EDIT: For record, I'm fairly certain Macedonia will become a NATO member regardless. EU membership is another thing though. That has the potential to be blocked by more countries than Greece because there's less appetite for expansion these days, among many member states.
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I don't necessarily think they "shouldn't be happy with it. Just that I don't expect them to be, either side. We tend to be quite petty and irrational when it comes to things like this, here on the Balkans.
That's very true.
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