Curious how the vote would play out had Madrid also won the CL and/or Portugal won the Euro.
Ballon D'or ... who will win it? who deserves it?
- Thread starter Marcosdeto
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Which greats are you referring to Brwned? Just curious.
The people like Eusebio, Puskas etc. off the top of my head. I could search through them all and find some perfect examples but I bore people enough with how much I bang on about this stuff. Our resident Hungarian (cinc) always mentions how Puskas isn't even thought of as the greatest Hungarian from that side, and certainly isn't thought of as the greatest Hungarian in history - that to me highlights the flaw in using direct goal threat (and the attributes that support it) as the reasoning behind putting someone up there with the best players to play the game. It's always been about so much more than that.
I would like Iniesta to win it... but Messi deserves it and will win it for sure. He is and has been the best by a distance since long long long time ago.
Messi = D10S
Messi = D10S
Gerd Muller and Hugo Sanchez for a start.
I would like Ronaldo to win it. Messi is breaking every record and soon enough will be mentioned as the best player of all time, but his lack of trophies last season should go to his disadventage. If it would have been only Ballon D'or I don't think that he would have win it. But with Fifa playing a part on it, I think that he will get it.
Anyway any of RoMessi deserves it, which I cannot say about Iniesta.
Anyway any of RoMessi deserves it, which I cannot say about Iniesta.
I feel like Iniesta will win it for some reason. Messi is the one who deserves it though.
I do feel that most people who don't regularly follow Cristiano (and to a lesser extent Messi) are out of sync with their actual performances and base most of their opinions on stats.
There have been many "lesser (or forgotten) greats" who have scored at more impressive rates and they're hardly mentioned.
- Josef Bican
- Fernando Peyroteo
- Jimmy McGrory
- Dixie Dean
- Isidro Lángara
- Telmo Zarra
- Waldo Machado
- Gunnar Nordahl
- Ferenc Deák
- Uwe Seeler
- Coutinho
- Gyula Zsengellér
- Jimmy Greaves
- Sándor Kocsis
...and many, many more.
There have been many "lesser (or forgotten) greats" who have scored at more impressive rates and they're hardly mentioned.
- Josef Bican
- Fernando Peyroteo
- Jimmy McGrory
- Dixie Dean
- Isidro Lángara
- Telmo Zarra
- Waldo Machado
- Gunnar Nordahl
- Ferenc Deák
- Uwe Seeler
- Coutinho
- Gyula Zsengellér
- Jimmy Greaves
- Sándor Kocsis
...and many, many more.
The Ballon D'Or for me should be about who the best player is, not the best player for the best team which is what some seem to think.
I'm sure Cal will be here to point out that Messi bottled the big games well going by that argument I'd say C.Ronaldo is also as guilty. That is a nonsense argument though
Does anyone know how many other players have won the Ballon D'or without winning a major trophy (league title, European Cup, International tournament trophy)? Would it be unfair to include the likes of Ronaldo and Owen, or am I right in saying the Uefa Cup/CWC had already began to lose its prestige by then? If we're excluding them the only one I can see is Figo.
Messi winning nothing of importance should count against him but i doubt it will.
I have mentioned that name many times in the newbie section and it is as if no-one has ever heard of him, but if we were to look at his statistics, they were phenomenal. Yes, I do use the same site as you...
http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html#bican
His statistics for his club; Slavia Prague was 534 in 274 games is a record that will never be surpassed. Yet, his name was seldom mentioned. Considering he played on a terrible surface, with heavy boots and probably terrible conditions, his time over 100 metres was 10.8 seconds. I have done a conversion into miles per hour and it gives him a speed of 20.1 miles per hour. This puts him ahead of Robin Van Persie and just a little bit behind Wayne Rooney in terms of speed.
Top international scorer of all time is Ali Daei and he only retired fairly recently. 98 of those goals are against Asian national teams.
I have mentioned that name many times in the newbie section and it is as if no-one has ever heard of him, but if we were to look at his statistics, they were phenomenal. Yes, I do use the same site as you...
http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html#bican
His statistics for his club; Slavia Prague was 534 in 274 games is a record that will never be surpassed. Yet, his name was seldom mentioned. Considering he played on a terrible surface, with heavy boots and probably terrible conditions, his time over 100 metres was 10.8 seconds. I have done a conversion into miles per hour and it gives him a speed of 20.1 miles per hour. This puts him ahead of Robin Van Persie and just a little bit behind Wayne Rooney in terms of speed.
He played throughout the whole WW2. Hardly fair how many players throughout Europe were actually busy in warfare and/or dying.
Interesting. Puskas averaged about 1 in 1 in around 500 club games, but he was also a technically gifted footballer who breathed new life and possibility into the game. There must have been some supreme talent in that side.
Impressive. But you can put him ahead as there's no way Rooney would cover 100m in 10.8 seconds, as I imagine Wayne's top speed here is getting compared with Bican's average speed over a full 100m: start, acceleration and deceleration included. Given the 100m world record was 10.2 in 1936, that puts Bican a mere 0.6 seconds outside of it - the contemporary equivalent of a 10.2 given Bolt's 9.6 record.
Messi should win.
no thread about the women? I know redcafe loves women
from what I hear it's between Wambach, Morgan and Martha.
and Martha has done *** this past year iirc so I'm thinking they didn't want to have all North Americans get shortlisted so they added Martha in there. no real basis for that, just a gut reaction,
no thread about the women? I know redcafe loves women
from what I hear it's between Wambach, Morgan and Martha.
and Martha has done *** this past year iirc so I'm thinking they didn't want to have all North Americans get shortlisted so they added Martha in there. no real basis for that, just a gut reaction,
Indeed, but the footballers of today are nowhere near Usain Bolt's maximum speed. However, with Bican, they say:
He must have been the Ronaldo of the time since he has his attributes.
So? He needed 149 games to score those 109 international goals, even disregarding any notions of quality of opposition and such, that's a very average gpg (in all-time great terms) of 0.73...
Everyone I mentioned had around a 1.00 or higher gpg ratio for their entire CAREER or the most part of it anyway...
Messi's goalscoring stats will secure him the win.
I havnt watched very much la liga in the past year, so I'm not really sure who deserves, but obviously ronaldo and messi's freak scoring records set them apart from others, and messi's record has been the best this year.
I havnt watched very much la liga in the past year, so I'm not really sure who deserves, but obviously ronaldo and messi's freak scoring records set them apart from others, and messi's record has been the best this year.
No offense, but anyone who puts Ali Daei up in a list of great scorers seriously needs to watch his games. He's a head taller and about 10 kg heavier than most Asian defenders during the late 90s and early 00s. Heskey has scored more goals in the A League this season than he has in the past few years, and he's no where near his prime, let alone having that big of a size advantage that Ali Daei used to have.
Bican scored 34 goals in 34 international games so, he is at 1.0 gpg already.
He really is excelling in a league that is clearly made for him, since he didn't have the level to play in the Premier League. Just for stats purposes in internationals, his gpg is 0.11, and Jose Luis Chilavert managed to have almost 0.11 gpg and he was a goalkeeper.
So? It's all about the quality of football. Daei would never get close to that record had he be born English or Serbian or even American.
Same with the players you posted. Different times, different qualities. You're not going to tell me that the Hungarian league in the 1950's is as good as the PL or European football is now.
I thought that was your point. It's only stats and not a real measure of quality because of the different circumstances.
As guilty? Shall we start at the title deciding El Clasico?
title deciding? madrid could have lost it and still won the league comfortably. Presumably the first liga clasico Madrid lost didn't matter? the one where Ronaldo missed 2 golden chances?
If Xavi could have scored from 6 yards people could have been talking about Messi in that game
Does anyone know when the last time was that the winner did not win a league title, Champions League or international tournament during that year? My impression of the Ballon D'or is that it often goes to a player who plays a big role in helping his team win a major trophy. For example Cannavaro in '06, Kaka in 07. If you look at it that way then perhaps Messi winning it would be more out of the ordinary than Ronaldo winning it, although it would certainly seem a little strange.
I think it was only because in those years nobody like Messi was around.
Don't forget Cal? he's the biggest fanboii there is.
Will Cal slit his wrists if/when Messi wins it for the 4th time ? He'll be running out of excuses very soon
Imagine not being able to enjoy Messi. Talk about depressing!
Messi. No contest.
I am hoping Iniesta will win it just so that my thread I made three years ago will make me look like I'm really good at judging footballers skills.
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/iniesta-next-winner-ballon-dor-281099/
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/iniesta-next-winner-ballon-dor-281099/
It will be between Heskey and Bramble.
This.
I've always said that the difference between Messi and Ronaldo is that Ronaldo will definitely go down as one of the top 5-20 footballers of all time, but Messi will go down as one of the greatest (1-3) ever.
22nd April (day after the clasico) I would have said Ronaldo deserved it.
25th April (after Chelsea and Bayen Munich) they were level again.
Ronaldo had a good Euros, but not a great one, probably just enough to put him back in the lead.
Then 2012/13 season starts and though Ronaldo hasn't been poor, Messi has been great, and I think his record breaking goal run is the reason for Barcelona's great record beating start.
So a slight edge to Ronaldo in the deserved stakes for last season, though Messi probably still would have won it unless Madrid had taken the CL or Portugal had won the Euros. But a win for Messi across the calendar year.
I still think the time for a Spanish player to win was 2010 - Xavi or Iniesta. Iniesta seems like the guilt nomination this time round.
25th April (after Chelsea and Bayen Munich) they were level again.
Ronaldo had a good Euros, but not a great one, probably just enough to put him back in the lead.
Then 2012/13 season starts and though Ronaldo hasn't been poor, Messi has been great, and I think his record breaking goal run is the reason for Barcelona's great record beating start.
So a slight edge to Ronaldo in the deserved stakes for last season, though Messi probably still would have won it unless Madrid had taken the CL or Portugal had won the Euros. But a win for Messi across the calendar year.
I still think the time for a Spanish player to win was 2010 - Xavi or Iniesta. Iniesta seems like the guilt nomination this time round.
Well, no. My point was that people ONLY look at stats nowadays. Of course they have meaning, but unless you couple them to actual performances they can be completely misleading such as your Ali Daei stat, but even then in a far "weaker" environment he only managed 0.73 gpg for his international career, whereas the people I mentioned were near or well over 1.00, which remains impressive in whatever setting.
As far as the modernist view on football goes, I tend to diverge from it in that sense that I don't think there is a positive linear evolution, ie. it doesn't necessarilly become better as it goes along.
I don't claim to have any expertise whatsoever on domestic Hungarian football, but let me just remind you before you make such statements based on... what exactly? ignorance of that particular time and place? ..., this was in that period (1940-1960s) the source of one of the best international teams of all time, the Magical Magyars (who still today hold the highest ever ELO score ahead of Pelé's Brazil and modern-day Spain) and some players who have gone on to top clubs and competitions in their later years and still excelled.
Ferenc Puskás: played in Hungary between 1943 and 1956, went to Real Madrid when he was 31 years old and retired there at age of 39... and we all know how good he was there, try to imagine his prime years.
Sándor Kocsis: played in Hungary between 1943 and 1957, went to Barcelona when he was 29 years old and retired there at age of 36... 4th all-time international top scorer and with 75 goals in 68 caps the best gpg ratio of anyone with 50+ caps (even better than Gerd Müller); also the highest gpg ratio of anyone in World Cup history and the 2nd most goals in a single WC behind Just Fontaine; 11 goals in 5 games (2.2 gpg)
also produced the likes of Hidegkuti, Czibor, Bozsik and later on players such as Florian Albert (who won the 1967 Ballon d'Or while playing for Ferencvaros); as far as European club competition goes, it's not a perfect system but at least an indicator: Hungary topped the country coefficient ranking a few times in the 50s and 60s and were in the top 3-5 many times. They may not have been as strong as the Spanish, Italian or English competitions back then, but certainly no pushovers.
I personally look at 3 main categories when rating a player; (in order of importance) 1. performances, 2. achievements, 3. statistics
But for Cristiano and Messi people have become obsessed with stats, and I just wanted to point out that if you're going to focus solely on that, there are many more "lesser greats" who would be deserving of being ranked above them. At least with them you can justify the increased importance of stats because there isn't much chance you saw them play, but there is no such excuse with current players. Stats are a vital category for rating players, but the least important of the 3 in my personal opinion.
It's definite proof to me that football ws not nearly as good in the Puskas years as it is now. He hadn't played football in 2 years but he could walk into the best team in Europe at age 31 despite of that. I also wonder if he'd get the same criticism that Berba got here because he scored bucket loads of goals against relegation fodder. For example, in his first season more than half of his league goals came in 4 matches. Real Madrid's amazing goal tally last season was the norm every season back then for Real and Barca.
People can dig up the very old legends as much as they like but I don't believe for a second that the standard of football was close to what it is today. Those players didn't even have to deal with 10 men behind the ball every match like Messi and co have to deal with week in and week out.
People can dig up the very old legends as much as they like but I don't believe for a second that the standard of football was close to what it is today. Those players didn't even have to deal with 10 men behind the ball every match like Messi and co have to deal with week in and week out.
An argument based on lies and misconceptions is no argument at all. And that's the bizarre thing, almost every argument about older players from those who haven't watched them is exactly like this. If you don't care enough to actually base your argument on, well, anything but hearsay then why bother making the argument at all? It's been said 100x before, it's been wrong 100x before. Why do people spout such bollocks? Have you simply been misled and not checked it up or are you trying to mislead others? You don't need to make stuff up to prove football is better now. It is. It just hasn't been getting consistently better every decade in every league. At the moment Spain is a whipping ground for the big teams because they're just so much better than the rest because they have fantastic teams - just like it was in the mids 50s/60s. Honestly, that Madrid team was sensational, and it would be in any generation. Di Stefano would look like a god no matter when he played.