Barcelona 2017/18

Ah yes, the Cruyff-ites crawl out of the woodwork, waiting in anticipation for their own team to fail so they can say told you so. :rolleyes:

Where were you weirdos when Rijkaard won your team a league + CL double with Edmilson and van Bommel in midfield?

You'd think Guardiola invented football or something. Time's change, teams adapt.

Bit of a contradiction my friend..
 
I came to say that they look like a very good "regular" team now, not like a typical Barca side. I see that others have already commented on that though.
 
I can see them going all the way, Madrid was just as dependent on Cristiano the last couple of wins they had. If Dembele and Coutinho progress and get more involved with the rest of the team, I don't see why they couldn't win it all with an inspired Messi.
Coutinho cannot play CL and I don't think Dembele will integrate enough to win CL.
 
They don't seem to be as good as their old sides IMO, so why are they unbeaten in La Liga?
 
They don't seem to be as good as their old sides IMO, so why are they unbeaten in La Liga?
This Barcelona side is good at grinding out wins and is tough to beat. Not as pretty to watch as 2008-2012, or even 2015, but just as effective.
 
Coutinho cannot play CL and I don't think Dembele will integrate enough to win CL.

Coutinho can take pressure off Messi playing every single game or at least he can play a half as he's done at times. He can't play in the CL but he can take minutes of rest off Messi in La Liga to keep him fresh for the CL games with their 8 points lead on Atletico.
 
You do realise you are slating a guy whose record this season is Played 46, Won 35, Drawn 10, Lost 1!

I don't think there is much that needs correcting there... even if it's not pretty Cruyff football. There is more than 1 way to play football.

5 players are occupying a vertical column because they are more than likely instructed to do so.
Centre back are so far apart because they are probably instructed to do so.


I disagree. Results should never be the sole measure of success, if not just check for the result.

For example, if the defender stays on the inside column(closer to the centre) and passes to the outside lane (channels/furthest column), if he loses the ball, his body shape will be such that if the ball is lost he will be inside facing outside meaning that he can cover the opposition passing lanes quicker and cover the space either behind or in front quicker. This is a very basic example.

The way Pique and Umtiti are set up, so far apart and on the outside columns in the build up whilst all their forward options to progress the ball are on the inside columns. This means that when they play from outside to inside and forward that the receiver is facing backwards if receiving such a ball. This is logical that if you are facing backwards this limits half your options immediately so it is far less optimal. This is just common sense. The second disadvantage of this is that if the receiver loses the ball, the area they have to all defend is now much larger as the centre backs are too spread out and the receiver is behind the ball on ball loss so there is larger space for the opposition to attack.

Watch Barcelona's build up when pressed, they are subpar it is pitiful to watch. They pass it to a cb whose passing lane a lot of the times to the inside is blocked because of the large space to the inside and then they then play it to the full back who is facing backwards and is then already covered. What happens next? They pass back and forth the defence with no route to progress the ball and they end up just playing a long ball towards Messi or Suarez who almost always close the ball and then they are back under pressure. This is a consistent issue. There is no movement in the centre to pull opposition players away top create space and open up passing lanes.


5 players occupying one column is inept and increases the chances of ball loss exponentially which is one of the reasons Barcelona cannot effectively circulate the ball and play progressive diagonal balls in behind opposition lines consistently. Moving a few players 2-3 players would make it easier to pass between the lines and progress the ball instead of always depending on the opposition coming on to you as a game plan when you have players with the ability to execute it.





Corrected? Why?

They're on their way to winning a treble by going the league and the CL undefeated ffs

See above
They need to be corrected because anything other than the Cruyff way is a crime against football :lol:

It's mathematically the best way to play regardless of aesthetics.

I'd be shocked if they win it.

I think Valverde is a very average coach being made to look good/great by the genius that is Messi.

They've abandoned all of their principles almost.

I agree.

Ah yes, the Cruyff-ites crawl out of the woodwork, waiting in anticipation for their own team to fail so they can say told you so. :rolleyes:

Where were you weirdos when Rijkaard won your team a league + CL double with Edmilson and van Bommel in midfield?

You'd think Guardiola invented football or something. Time's change, teams adapt.

Rijkaard played Deco and Xavi together with Marquez as the holding midfilder in a lot of games. Xavi's injury meant he wasn't able to play that Champions league final. Rijkaard was the head coach of Barcelona because Johan Cruijff told Laporta to give him a chance. The same thing with Pep Guardiola. It was under Cruijff's advice he became coach.

He didn't invent football but he initiated the current era both in terms of coaching and tactics and even the way statistics have been applied to football. He is the most influencial coach since Johan Cruijff and that isn't up for debate.
How are City stronger in every department? Barcelona have better players in pretty much every single position.

I can see it going the way 2015 semifinals went with Pep being too adventurous and paying for it.

Did you watch that game? Pep tried man marking Messi, Neymar and Suarez but changed it after 10/15 minutes.

Bayern were missing Alaba, Ribery and Robben. That would be the equivalent of Luis Enrique facing a full strength Bayern side without Neymar, Messi and Dani Alves.

They lost the game in the last 15 minutes because Benatia decided to dribble in his own half which Pep Guardiola forbids, when he could have played a vertical or diagonal pass forward with less risk of a counter.


As much as City can definitely put a few past them, I also think City's defence has frailties and could ship a few too. It would be a very interesting clash. I do think City would pose a great threat though and have a great chance to beat them.

Manchester City have the best team at stopping opposition creating chances. The opposition make the fewest passes in theri halves, they concede the least shots in volume and XG.

With how poor Barcelona press and how easy it is for the opposition to play diagonal balls behind their midfield, Manchester City could really punish them if they play to their capacity.
 
I disagree. Results should never be the sole measure of success, if not just check for the result

You get success by getting results. Results ARE the sole measure of success.

We're in the middle of March, Barcelona have pretty much won the league and the cup, they're in the CL quarters undefeated and you want to tell me the way they're playing is completely wrong? It's bonkers.

It's mathematically the best way to play regardless of aesthetics.

:lol:

Can I see that math? You might want to show it to us and to the hundreds and hundreds of football managers in the world too.

There are a lot of different ways of playing football and a lot of different ways of winning football matches. The best way of playing 100% depends on the players available for both teams, managers that fall in love with a way of playing and don't adapt always end up getting themselves sacked.
 
You get success by getting results. Results ARE the sole measure of success.

We're in the middle of March, Barcelona have pretty much won the league and the cup, they're in the CL quarters undefeated and you want to tell me the way they're playing is completely wrong? It's bonkers.

Interesting. So why is Tele Santana's Brazil remembered so fondly? Why is it that the identity of Brazilian football is still viewed through that team that the term 'joga bonita' was created for despite them 'failing' to meet your criteria.

Netherlands of 1974 are probably the most influencial team in the history of the game are they failures?

"Don't just look at the result, look at the play" - Johan Cruijff.

The process should be looked at. Is your team creating scoring chances, are they effectively preventing scoring chances? The game is deeper than results alone as a sole metric.
Can I see that math? You might want to show it to us and to the hundreds and hundreds of football managers in the world too.

There are a lot of different ways of playing football and a lot of different ways of winning football matches. The best way of playing 100% depends on the players available for both teams, managers that fall in love with a way of playing and don't adapt always end up getting themselves sacked.


Of course football is not that simple and every styles optimal performance depends on the players available, but if every manager is given the players ideal for the implementation of their systems, Pep Guardiola and Maurizio Sarri have the best models based on chance generation in terms of quality and quantity, the amount of area that the players each have to defend (smaller so easier to defedn), the no of players in a player's field of vision (which increases passing options which links to improved chance generation), the number of permitted mistakes by the players (minimised because of the automatisms and ball coverage vertically and horizontally usually reduces counters) and quantity and the total number of duels engaged in (reduces them because of the intercepting).
 
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Interesting. So why is Tele Santana's Brazil remembered so fondly? Why is it that the identity of Brazilian football is still viewed through that team that the term 'joga bonita' was created for despite them 'failing' to meet your criteria.

Netherlands of 1974 are probably the most influencial team in the history of the game are they failures?

Influential? To whom? Is that measured anywhere? Those teams are remembered fondly because they were different, fun to watch and they got success on the pitch too. Then the legend gets passed down from football fan to football fan. Being remembered doesn't make them successful. Success comes from results on the pitch, no matter how you play.

Of course football is not that simple and every styles optimal performance depends on the players available, but if every manager is given the players ideal for the implementation of their systems, Pep Guardiola and Maurizio Sarri have the best models based on chance generation in terms of quality, the amount of area that the players each have to defend, the no of players in a player's field of vision (which increases passing options which links to improved chance generation), the number of permitted mistakes by the players, the number of chances created both in terms of quality and quantity and the total number of duels engaged in.

It 100% works, if it doesn't then they just didn't have the players for it... Did Napoli not have good enough players this season? Are they better than Juventus?

Permitted mistakes, chances created, players' field of vision, I don't care. What about physicality, counterattacking, set pieces, booting it up for a striker to hold the ball up. Saying a bunch of things and then claiming they're mathematically proven the best way to play the sport without no evidence for it is bullshit. Allegri vs Sarri has been incredible to watch, if Sarri wins the league there will be fans claiming he's God almighty, if he doesn't... he just didn't have the players for it. Same for Bielsa and plenty of other hipster managers who are nowhere to be found now.

This whole set of fans talking like they're from the church of Cruyff going from door to door carrying little Guardiola statues around for people to kiss his bald head are ridiculous. Valverde getting this team in Barcelona of all places to play the way they're playing getting the results they've been getting has been great to watch, it would be crazy to change anything about it. It's one thing to prefer a certain way of playing, it's another to completely downplay any other strategy.
 
Barca can finish this season unbeaten in La Liga which would be a great achievement no matter what. Credit to Valverde for his job so far. Also Messi looks quite fresh which gives them good chances to finish the season strongly.
 
What some of you are missing here is that the so called Cruyff way is that one little thing that makes Barcelona a special club. Everytime when they stray away from it they are just a normal top team with a few superstars. They may be gonna win something or may be not but the style of play is vital for the identity of this club and they are now losing it with Valverde as a coach. Thats more important than another La Liga title, dont you think?
 
What some of you are missing here is that the so called Cruyff way is that one little thing that makes Barcelona a special club. Everytime when they stray away from it they are just a normal top team with a few superstars. They may be gonna win something or may be not but the style of play is vital for the identity of this club and they are now losing it with Valverde as a coach. Thats more important than another La Liga title, dont you think?

Fans would prefer Barca to stop Madrid from winning a 3rd CL title in a row no matter how. If it takes a defensive tactics to beat Madrid, then why not? A 3rd CL title for Madrid would be a nightmare for Barca fans.
 
What some of you are missing here is that the so called Cruyff way is that one little thing that makes Barcelona a special club. Everytime when they stray away from it they are just a normal top team with a few superstars. They may be gonna win something or may be not but the style of play is vital for the identity of this club and they are now losing it with Valverde as a coach. Thats more important than another La Liga title, dont you think?

I generally agree but, you can argue that Barca currently lack the midfield to play like that right now.
 
Influential? To whom? Is that measured anywhere? Those teams are remembered fondly because they were different, fun to watch and they got success on the pitch too. Then the legend gets passed down from football fan to football fan. Being remembered doesn't make them successful. Success comes from results on the pitch, no matter how you play.

It 100% works, if it doesn't then they just didn't have the players for it... Did Napoli not have good enough players this season? Are they better than Juventus?

Well Tele Santana's Brazil has influenced the perception of Brazil so much so that they've been referenced since I started watching football as the standard for beautiful football. This is considering the fact that Brazil have been very pragmatic since the 90s.

Netherlands of the totaalvoetbal influenced tactics. Arrigo Sacchi used them as a reference point for his great A.C Milan side. They were a pre cursor fot laying the basic template for the position game which includes Ajax under van Gaal, Pep Guardiola's Barcelona, Johan Cruijff's dream team.

By your logic the only successful team in the premier league is Manchester City and the other 18 are failures.


Permitted mistakes, chances created, players' field of vision, I don't care. What about physicality, counterattacking, set pieces, booting it up for a striker to hold the ball up. Saying a bunch of things and then claiming they're mathematically proven the best way to play the sport without no evidence for it is bullshit. Allegri vs Sarri has been incredible to watch, if Sarri wins the league there will be fans claiming he's God almighty, if he doesn't... he just didn't have the players for it. Same for Bielsa and plenty of other hipster managers who are nowhere to be found now.

This whole set of fans talking like they're from the church of Cruyff going from door to door carrying little Guardiola statues around for people to kiss his bald head are ridiculous. Valverde getting this team in Barcelona of all places to play the way they're playing getting the results they've been getting has been great to watch, it would be crazy to change anything about it. It's one thing to prefer a certain way of playing, it's another to completely downplay any other strategy.

Bielsa doesn't use positional play...

Sarri has no business challenging Juventus and based on the resources that each team spends, they should be 5th. Juventus are an elite team alongside Real Madrid and Barcelona and it is a testament to his coaching that hey are even challenging such a behemoth.

I said the things Valverde could improve and if you read my conversation with @De Portago , you would see that I agreed that he is in a dilemna to accomodate both Messi and Suarez in the side. The things I mentioned are basic things that can be done to improve the side.
 
I generally agree but, you can argue that Barca currently lack the midfield to play like that right now.

If Maurizio Sarri can get a midfield of Hamsik, Allan and Jorghino to play like that Barcelona have the midfeld. It's simply down to coaching and teaching the players what positions to take up.

Sergi Roberto already grew with the basics being taught in La Masia, Iniesta and Busquets are still there. Rakitic and Paulinho on the other hand...
 
What some of you are missing here is that the so called Cruyff way is that one little thing that makes Barcelona a special club. Everytime when they stray away from it they are just a normal top team with a few superstars. They may be gonna win something or may be not but the style of play is vital for the identity of this club and they are now losing it with Valverde as a coach. Thats more important than another La Liga title, dont you think?
I agree but they just don't have the horses to play that way at the moment.
 
Barca's midfield: Busquets - nearly 30 y.o., Iniesta nearly 34 y.o., Rakitic 30 y.o. and Paulino - nealry 30 y.o. Messi is nearly 31 y.o. Suarez and Pique are also 31 y.o.

Will they have the required energy levels to lead Barca to CL glory?
 
Barca's midfield: Busquets - nearly 30 y.o., Iniesta nearly 34 y.o., Rakitic 30 y.o. and Paulino - nealry 30 y.o. Messi is nearly 31 y.o. Suarez and Pique are also 31 y.o.

Will they have the required energy levels to lead Barca to CL glory?

But, they do have their strongest backline in a long time. With Semedo- Pique- Umtiti- Alba there is no weak link there.
 
Well Tele Santana's Brazil has influenced the perception of Brazil so much so that they've been referenced since I started watching football as the standard for beautiful football. This is considering the fact that Brazil have been very pragmatic since the 90s.

Netherlands of the totaalvoetbal influenced tactics. Arrigo Sacchi used them as a reference point for his great A.C Milan side. They were a pre cursor fot laying the basic template for the position game which includes Ajax under van Gaal, Pep Guardiola's Barcelona, Johan Cruijff's dream team.

By your logic the only successful team in the premier league is Manchester City and the other 18 are failures.




Bielsa doesn't use positional play...

Sarri has no business challenging Juventus and based on the resources that each team spends, they should be 5th. Juventus are an elite team alongside Real Madrid and Barcelona and it is a testament to his coaching that hey are even challenging such a behemoth.

I said the things Valverde could improve and if you read my conversation with @De Portago , you would see that I agreed that he is in a dilemna to accomodate both Messi and Suarez in the side. The things I mentioned are basic things that can be done to improve the side.

Basic things to improve the side :lol:

With this clear and obvious way of making teams better you'd think the millions of coaches around the world would get around to it, they could become incredibly successful and win million and millions, the idiots! It's mathematically proven to be the best way to play football and most of those idiots don't use it... while you that are one of the few so aware of this incredible super strategy that trumps all other strategies are sitting at home.

Every single coach ever in the history of this sport uses positional play. Unless there's a mystic meaning behind those 2 words only true Cruyff lovers can understand. Sarri has no business challenging Juventus? He has a great squad at his disposal and he's most likely going to end up winning absolutely nothing after getting bad results in Europe.

If next season he plays the same way and gets 10th place then it will be the players' fault or some other excuse because positional play never fails and you're the only genius capable of understanding it.
 
Barca's midfield: Busquets - nearly 30 y.o., Iniesta nearly 34 y.o., Rakitic 30 y.o. and Paulino - nealry 30 y.o. Messi is nearly 31 y.o. Suarez and Pique are also 31 y.o.

Will they have the required energy levels to lead Barca to CL glory?

They're in their early 30s, they're not 40. It's the perfect age, experienced players who are in great shape.

Look at the key players in the Madrid team that won the last 2 Champions Leagues.
 
But, they do have their strongest backline in a long time. With Semedo- Pique- Umtiti- Alba there is no weak link there.

Defence depends not only on the defenders though. The rest of the team should provide protection. They do not need much protection in most games because teams do not attack them. But better teams may expose their defence. Messi and Suarez (recently) are not great at pressing from the front, it's not clear that Iniesta, Busquets and Rakitic have the energy to press 90 min. I was surprised to see Chelsea finding a lot of space last night. If Barca give so much space to better teams than Chelsea, they will struggle big time.
 
They're in their early 30s, they're not 40. It's the perfect age, experienced players who are in great shape.

Look at the key players in the Madrid team that won the last 2 Champions Leagues.

Only Modric was 30+ in Real's midfield. Kroos and Casemiro were 25-27 y.o. And Ronaldo even at 31-33 is a physical speciman. Your point fails.
 
Only Modric was 30+ in Real's midfield. Kroos and Casemiro were 25-27 y.o. And Ronaldo even at 31-33 is a physical speciman. Your point fails.

Their 4 most important players are Ronaldo, Modric, Marcelo and Ramos. If you look at Bayern or Juve it will be similar to that too.
 
Their 4 most important players are Ronaldo, Modric, Marcelo and Ramos. If you look at Bayern or Juve it will be similar to that too.

Marcelo was 28-29 last two seasons, so only 3 Real players were 30 y.o., not 6-7!
 
Marcelo was 28-29 last two seasons, so only 3 Real players were 30 y.o., not 6-7!

Nearly 30 years old, just like you wrote in your post.

Barca's midfield: Busquets - nearly 30 y.o., Iniesta nearly 34 y.o., Rakitic 30 y.o. and Paulino - nealry 30 y.o. Messi is nearly 31 y.o. Suarez and Pique are also 31 y.o.

Will they have the required energy levels to lead Barca to CL glory?

Marcelo's nearly 30 years old, Ronaldo's 33, Modric's 32, Ramos is nearly 32...

If they reach the final this year they'll have 6-7 players who are over 30 starting. It was only an example though, you can look at other top teams too and it will be similar. Barca players are at the perfect age and they've been signing good young players to freshen the squad too so the future is looking good.
 
Not really wrong though.

It is, even mathematically and statistically speaking. There is no such thing as absolutely right or wrong way of playing like the narrative is from some here. What's next? Remove a human element from the game? That way we can also eliminate things like "Benatia dribbling inside his own half which Pep Guardiola forbids". It's not only wrong, it's absurd, like all other things when you get brainwashed by some ideology.

It really starts sounding like a Pep church.

What some of you are missing here is that the so called Cruyff way is that one little thing that makes Barcelona a special club. Everytime when they stray away from it they are just a normal top team with a few superstars. They may be gonna win something or may be not but the style of play is vital for the identity of this club and they are now losing it with Valverde as a coach. Thats more important than another La Liga title, dont you think?

No!
 
It's mathematically the best way to play regardless of aesthetics.

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Explain in a bit more detail. I think I understand what you mean.
 
What some of you are missing here is that the so called Cruyff way is that one little thing that makes Barcelona a special club. Everytime when they stray away from it they are just a normal top team with a few superstars. They may be gonna win something or may be not but the style of play is vital for the identity of this club and they are now losing it with Valverde as a coach. Thats more important than another La Liga title, dont you think?

Cruyff doesn't make them special and they aren't special at all. They're a massive team like few others thanks to what they've won and a lot of different great players that have played for them.
 
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Explain in a bit more detail. I think I understand what you mean.

If I have it correct, the Cruyff approach exams the optimal positioning for ten outfield players to cover on the field, with the optimal spacing between each player for (1) passing angles, (2) passing options, (3) attacking fluidity and (4) defensive responsibility.

You know how when a team can look really fluid and reach the last third of the field with three passes or less, even if the quality of the players aren't individually exceptional? (like Sevilla at times vs. us). The idea is that the systemic approach to positioning and movement makes football fluid more than the instinctive approach does.
 
Cruyff is responsible for the blueprint of La Masia and subsequently the blueprint of their football for decades. No Barcelona fan will concur otherwise.

At Barcelona Cruyff transformed the club’s academy, La Masia, into a university of the pass. To pass, or to stop the other team from passing, you needed to know exactly where to be. The average player only had the ball for a minute per game so his main job was to position himself correctly for the other 89 minutes. “Football,” taught Cruyff, “is a game you play with your head.” Barcelona’s Lionel Messi is a born genius but, like several of his teammates tonight, he was shaped by countless mornings playing piggy-in-the-middle-style positional games in the Cruyffian Masia.
 
Marcelo's nearly 30 years old, Ronaldo's 33, Modric's 32, Ramos is nearly 32...

If they reach the final this year they'll have 6-7 players who are over 30 starting. It was only an example though, you can look at other top teams too and it will be similar. Barca players are at the perfect age and they've been signing good young players to freshen the squad too so the future is looking good.

IF, though. Thought you were arguing that Real won the CL with many 30+ year olds which wasn't the case. 'IF' proves nothing. The worry about the age of Barca's first team applies to Real too. Maybe neither Real nor Barca will be able to win it this time.
 
Interesting. So why is Tele Santana's Brazil remembered so fondly?
Because they were creative.
Why is it that the identity of Brazilian football is still viewed through that team that the term 'joga bonita' was created for despite them 'failing' to meet your criteria.
Joga bonito. The identity of Brazilian football had decades before Telé, the worst part of that defeat vs Italy was everyone associated that defeat because they were naive, so they started to play with a more "european style" in 1990 with Lazaroni, then 1994 with Ranieri. Still Tele Santana won 2 Intercontinental Cups vs Cruyff and Cappello in 1992 and 1993.

There are multiple ways to win, some fans want to be entertained and if they win as a consequence of that even better, other fans just want to win, regardless of the way the team plays.

I agree with some of your points, but you need to understand there are more ways to play football than the Cruyff way, same thing regarding Brazil and Tele Santana or Hungary with Gustav Sebes, everyone remembers them, but you need to respect other points of view.
 
For those complaining about how Barca plays now check out the build up to the first goal against Chelsea. Amazing stuff:



Give Valverde time, Barca will play much more fluid if players can remain healthy
 
Barca fans - I'm in Barcelona the week of the Roma game (Apr 4). What are my chances of getting a ticket? And how do I go about doing it? I've already registered my interest on the official site.