Am I missing something? Don't most of them speak French?
Battlefield Calais: 'the swarm'
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well exactly, that's what I'd have thought. So where has this determination to come to England come from? What do we offer that France doesn't?
They're all massive Arsenal fans?
I think I've cracked it. Given almost all new immigrant populations start life here a maximum of two tube stops from the Emirates.
Some of these people have travelled half-way across the world away from extreme poverty and war... you can't expect them to then have to put up with living in Tottenham Hale.
What countries, out of interest? The only country I've seen doing this is Germany, and their circumstances aren't similar to our own. Germany's population has shrank by almost 2 million since the turn of the century, while ours is up around 5.3 million. Add to that a weaker economy, (much) smaller land mass, and a lack of social housing, it's a lot less challenging for nations like them as it is for ourselves.
We should definitely be doing more to take in the most vunerable, though.
I used to work near Wood Green/Turnpike Lane, often I would have felt tempted to make the reverse journey.
That's not wholly true. There's a huge number coming here from Arab based lands and the Maghreb (north of Sahara). So, the connection is there, and it will continue to be there if there is conflict in their homes. And conflict to the point where it doesn't stay between belligerents, but involving civilians - of course you'll flee. And also, this has everything to do with colonisation. When you loot and extract the natural resources and economic value of a country for 130 years, what do you think will happen? You'll put them so far back economically that it's nigh on impossible for them to recover. How could they even recover from that? And the numbers are countless. 50 years ago is very, very nascent. The Iraq War is one colossal mess, and that is directly the UK/US's fault. Libya is close to a civil war, and the number of refugees leaving from there is a staggering amount. And rightly so. It's either die in your homes, or die trying to live.
So, back to my original point, we (Europe + US) have created this conflict, and it's now on our doorstep literally. How is it right that we turn our backs? We've debased and ruined countless of people's lives and livelihood and now we get uppity if our holiday is ruined, or if someone risks their life to actually live their life. We are in an extremely privileged position, and it's about time we start taking that privilege seriously, and rather turning our backs on these people, we should find a way to help them. Tbh, a prisoner has better living conditions and privileges than 99.999% of these people trying to get in.
A solution needs to be reached, and first and foremost the media need to stop with this needless demonisation. Our mentalities need to change aswell, and we need to accept that this isn't a problem that will go away overnight. (This isn't directed at you btw, just general points).
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The migrants who've ended up here in central Italy are apparently mostly Nigerian, so they speak English plus a dialect language (plus they learn fluent Italian very quickly, to their credit).
I only know this because I've been chatting to a lad called Ricky who has been taken under the wing of a local supermarket here, they let him sell his socks and tea towels right outside (in direct competition) and he helps out in the store and gets a few euros from customers when he pushes their trollies to the car (this would never happen in the UK, of course, as he's not actually employed by them. It works, though).
He wants a proper job, he's obviously an intelligent and personable young man - but he hasn't got the requisite visa. However, no-one tries to move him on, even though he's hiding in plain sight, as it were!
Another thing - maybe not directly relevant to the 'crisis at Calais', but more about people with 2/3 degrees (or expert engineers, or what have you) in other countries who have to take menial jobs here. And I'm not saying they should be able to waltz into any job in the country they have fled to. More that I'm sure their knowledge/experience and expertise can be better utilised by the country they are going to.
DM back at it today. I reckon my thread title/headline is better though.
Calais under siege: Riot police battle 2,500 migrants desperate to reach Britain through Channel Tunnel during weekend of chaos
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kend-chanting-Open-borders.html#ixzz3hkNhZU7e
Calais under siege: Riot police battle 2,500 migrants desperate to reach Britain through Channel Tunnel during weekend of chaos
- French police say 1,700 migrants stormed the Channel Tunnel last night - the highest number for almost a week
- One group of 200 seen tearing down fences and charge past police, before being beaten back with tear gas
- Many were heard chanting: 'Why do you kill us? Why did you kill my sister? We are coming to save our lives'
- Mayor of Calais says deal allowing Britain to have border in France should end and frontier moved back to Dover
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kend-chanting-Open-borders.html#ixzz3hkNhZU7e
I actually thought the thread title was a reference to a new Battlefield game.
I was thinking of trademarking it before COD nicks it!
Why are the migrants so desperate to escape from France to Britain? Surely they have already escaped from whatever cesspit they come from and France is not that bad.
How f*cking difficult is it to build a big electrified fence?
Fair play to these migrants, they're doing their bit to defend Brits from yet another tumescent X-Factor rejects release. http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...bands-single-delayed-by-calais-migrant-crisis
We did the crossing last night, on the Shuttle. They were being very strict about only allowing you to go through passport control no more than 2 hours from your booked departure time - this was due to an incident, a migrant had got into the tunnel and a train had had to stop (not surprisingly).
Whilst we were waiting to go through passport control, we were down at the pet check-in area and we saw a migrant wandering around in another carpark. He was trying all the car doors and there were no staff anywhere to be seen. Be careful if you're travelling, it's not just lorries that are at risk.
Whilst we were waiting to go through passport control, we were down at the pet check-in area and we saw a migrant wandering around in another carpark. He was trying all the car doors and there were no staff anywhere to be seen. Be careful if you're travelling, it's not just lorries that are at risk.
Some interesting stats here, which help put the Daily Mail/Tory/UKIP fuelled hysteria into perspective.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...about-europes-refugee-crisis?CMP=share_btn_tw
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...about-europes-refugee-crisis?CMP=share_btn_tw
It'll be ignored and the hysteria will carry on. Someone at work today was asking a colleague why "these migrants" don't just go home. I had to walk out the room before I ended up telling that person to feck off.
Germany is expecting four times as many asylum seekers this year, with Berlin calling for European action on the crisis
If the EU wasn't so dogmatic about the principle of freedom of movement, this situation could be better managed. In 2014 net immigration to the UK was 300,000+, were we actually able to regulate the flow of European citizens there would be greater capacity for asylum seekers. However facilities like Yarl's Wood are clearly not suitable (to put it mildly), there would need to be money up front. Similarly, it is about time that there was a proper reception centre in Calais, enabling us to process those needy cases on reasonable terms.
If the EU wasn't so dogmatic about the principle of freedom of movement, this situation could be better managed. In 2014 net immigration to the UK was 300,000+, were we actually able to regulate the flow of European citizens there would be greater capacity for asylum seekers. However facilities like Yarl's Wood are clearly not suitable (to put it mildly), there would need to be money up front. Similarly, it is about time that there was a proper reception centre in Calais, enabling us to process those needy cases on reasonable terms.
Throughout my travels over the years in the Middle East (long time ago) there was a frequent topic of conversation when I met people....how could they get over to England to work and get rich. Although wars/fighting have increased recently the desire to get rich in England has always been there. Should imagine the African countries have much the same opinion. Maybe that is why we are the first option for so many. It may also explain why so many migrants don't want to claim asylum in any of the countries they pass through. Some of them have stated that they don't actually want to claim asylum anywhere, they just want to work here and make money. In one interview some stated they just wanted to be illegal immigrants and work and most of them have someone to contact over here who will provide them with said job, usually someone from their country of origin.
These are economic migrants. Our country already has almost 2 million unemployed and perhaps we should be giving a thought to these people who also need work and are our primary responsibility. We also ought to consider that most illegal immigrants working here are not "on the books" and therefore not paying tax or NI contributions.
We have far too many British people living on the streets who cannot get a job or benefits because they have no address and they cannot get an address because they have no money. Who is bothering about these poor souls? Some of their lives are far worse than that of the economic migrants. They do not have money to pay traffickers to travel across Europe. They barely have enough money to eat.
Housing...if migration was 300,000 last year then it's too much for a country this size. The area I live in houses approx. 70,000 people. It's large but hilly so it's not possible to build on much of the land. At that yearly rate of migration we would have to build to house 3x the population of that area.
We should not be looking to allow entry to economic migrants whilst there are so many people here who are so needing of our help. It might also help us to differentiate between different types of migrant if we stopped generalising them as "desperate" when "determined" would be far more appropriate.
These are economic migrants. Our country already has almost 2 million unemployed and perhaps we should be giving a thought to these people who also need work and are our primary responsibility. We also ought to consider that most illegal immigrants working here are not "on the books" and therefore not paying tax or NI contributions.
We have far too many British people living on the streets who cannot get a job or benefits because they have no address and they cannot get an address because they have no money. Who is bothering about these poor souls? Some of their lives are far worse than that of the economic migrants. They do not have money to pay traffickers to travel across Europe. They barely have enough money to eat.
Housing...if migration was 300,000 last year then it's too much for a country this size. The area I live in houses approx. 70,000 people. It's large but hilly so it's not possible to build on much of the land. At that yearly rate of migration we would have to build to house 3x the population of that area.
We should not be looking to allow entry to economic migrants whilst there are so many people here who are so needing of our help. It might also help us to differentiate between different types of migrant if we stopped generalising them as "desperate" when "determined" would be far more appropriate.
Some very good points, I think it's terrible how our own homeless seem to be marginalised even further in some cases by asylum seekers.
You are conflating a number of unrelated issues here so I'll address them one at a time.
Britain, like the US, probably does have a greater draw for migrants than other places, but as we're all they see on the TV, hear on the radio and read in the history books it's hardly surprising. Many of them learn English through their exposure to our globally pervasive culture, why would they not then want to head to a country where they can speak the language rather than heading to one where it's all Greek to them.
We also do little to dispel the illusion that our streets are paved with gold. We are, thankfully, a very charitable nation but this can give the impression that we have more than we know what to do with. I worked for a charity that rebuilt an orphanage and fitted out a school, hospital and fire station in a small Romanian town purely from donations and some of the stuff we had dropped on us astounded me, like 3,000 pairs of brand new Adidas trainers that someone diverted to charity as they felt the company instruction to shred the poor selling line rather than cheapen the brand by dropping the price was amoral. But if big business dumping poor sellers is bad then the NHS donations were sickening, they included glass test tubes, stainless steel surgical equipment and even a fully automated dentists chair and drill set all of which had never been used but all of which had passed it's expiry date. An expiry date that was set to avoid the local NHS trust having their budget reduced this year because they still had items from last years budget in the stores.
We don't do it deliberately, but we do manage to give off the impression that we have much more than we know what to do with and that must look appealing to the poorest of the world. I'll never forget one of the Romanian's who visited us breaking down and crying in the supermarket when she saw the 2 aisles of do food, more goods stacked floor to ceiling than her town saw in one month to feed 200,000 people, I'd met the dogs in her town and they contented themselves with trying to eat people.
Illegal immigrants are by their very nature, not on the books and not paying tax and NI, they get no benefits or housing and have no right to remain facing immediate deportation if they are found. Nobody is letting them in, they smuggle themselves in at very high risk and they forego all rights and protections in doing so for a short term financial gain. We should be targeting the employers to reduce the demand, hitting the desperate people trying to better themselves is never going to remove the demand. Economic migrants do also deserve some sympathy though, they are often horribly exploited and live in dire conditions almost like slaves and if they have children whilst abroad, they find their child is stateless and give them lifelong problems. I have a very good friend in Singapore whose Malay parents were working illegally in Brunei when she was born, as such she is stateless. She eventually managed to get a Malay overseas passport and had settled with her Scottish husband in Singapore but when he died she found herself back in her old situation where Singapore refused her long term permission to stay and Malaysia would only allow her a 6 months visitation so she is still living in limbo.
As the Guardian article states however, 62% of those at Calais are genuine asylum seekers who have a right to claim refuge. The remaining 38% would not get past the form filling stage so are trying to get in illegally and would be turned away if caught.
These people have nothing to do with the migrants, they'd certainly not be fruit picking or labouring on building sites even if the migrants were gone, most have major issues with mental health and often drug and alcohol dependence and have tragically fallen through the gaps in our welfare system. We should do more to help them out of their situation but in the majority of cases they are not immediately employable so nobody can be accused of coming over here taking their jobs.
The 2,500 or so migrants we are talking about at Calais make up less than 1% of the 300,000 net migration figures you quote for last year. The vast majority of that 300,000 are legally permitted EU migrants who have as much right to apply for a job in the UK as you do in any other EU member state and most arrive with a job and housing sorted, they're not turning up demanding a hand out and a new home. Approximately 13% of the UK population are non-UK born so would at some stage have formed part of one yer's net migration gain and of them, the vast majority are gainfully employed and make a net contribution to the UK in terms of tax and NI and that's before we even look at the skills gap they help to fill in our ageing population that helps keep our schools and the NHS functional.
13% is a pretty normal figure when compared with the rest of the EU, slightly behind Austria, Spain, Sweden and Germany and slightly ahead of the rest. It's certainly not something the country can't handle and can't be compared to building 3 of your small towns new every year, you want to try living somewhere like Singapore where a country no bigger than the Isle of Wight has a population of almost 6 Million and almost 50% of those are foreign migrants who are wither brought in for their high skill levels or to do the general labour work in building the infrastructure and keeping the country running.
Personally I'd grant the asylum seekers right to apply and hear their cases in the proper system rather than trying to pretend they aren't there and hoping the French will take care of them, we're doing far less than the rest of Europe in dealing with a humanitarian crisis that our own foreign policies helped create and frankly it's embarassing having a desperate huddled mass shivering on our doorstep. For the economic migrants assess their skills and see if they fit a need in the job market. I'd far rather a determined young workforce proudly helping improve the country and contributing to taxes and NI whilst doing so than have them desperately huddled in poor employer sourced accommodation whilst they are exploited for illegal gain.
Britain, like the US, probably does have a greater draw for migrants than other places, but as we're all they see on the TV, hear on the radio and read in the history books it's hardly surprising. Many of them learn English through their exposure to our globally pervasive culture, why would they not then want to head to a country where they can speak the language rather than heading to one where it's all Greek to them.
We also do little to dispel the illusion that our streets are paved with gold. We are, thankfully, a very charitable nation but this can give the impression that we have more than we know what to do with. I worked for a charity that rebuilt an orphanage and fitted out a school, hospital and fire station in a small Romanian town purely from donations and some of the stuff we had dropped on us astounded me, like 3,000 pairs of brand new Adidas trainers that someone diverted to charity as they felt the company instruction to shred the poor selling line rather than cheapen the brand by dropping the price was amoral. But if big business dumping poor sellers is bad then the NHS donations were sickening, they included glass test tubes, stainless steel surgical equipment and even a fully automated dentists chair and drill set all of which had never been used but all of which had passed it's expiry date. An expiry date that was set to avoid the local NHS trust having their budget reduced this year because they still had items from last years budget in the stores.
We don't do it deliberately, but we do manage to give off the impression that we have much more than we know what to do with and that must look appealing to the poorest of the world. I'll never forget one of the Romanian's who visited us breaking down and crying in the supermarket when she saw the 2 aisles of do food, more goods stacked floor to ceiling than her town saw in one month to feed 200,000 people, I'd met the dogs in her town and they contented themselves with trying to eat people.
Illegal immigrants are by their very nature, not on the books and not paying tax and NI, they get no benefits or housing and have no right to remain facing immediate deportation if they are found. Nobody is letting them in, they smuggle themselves in at very high risk and they forego all rights and protections in doing so for a short term financial gain. We should be targeting the employers to reduce the demand, hitting the desperate people trying to better themselves is never going to remove the demand. Economic migrants do also deserve some sympathy though, they are often horribly exploited and live in dire conditions almost like slaves and if they have children whilst abroad, they find their child is stateless and give them lifelong problems. I have a very good friend in Singapore whose Malay parents were working illegally in Brunei when she was born, as such she is stateless. She eventually managed to get a Malay overseas passport and had settled with her Scottish husband in Singapore but when he died she found herself back in her old situation where Singapore refused her long term permission to stay and Malaysia would only allow her a 6 months visitation so she is still living in limbo.
As the Guardian article states however, 62% of those at Calais are genuine asylum seekers who have a right to claim refuge. The remaining 38% would not get past the form filling stage so are trying to get in illegally and would be turned away if caught.
These people have nothing to do with the migrants, they'd certainly not be fruit picking or labouring on building sites even if the migrants were gone, most have major issues with mental health and often drug and alcohol dependence and have tragically fallen through the gaps in our welfare system. We should do more to help them out of their situation but in the majority of cases they are not immediately employable so nobody can be accused of coming over here taking their jobs.
The 2,500 or so migrants we are talking about at Calais make up less than 1% of the 300,000 net migration figures you quote for last year. The vast majority of that 300,000 are legally permitted EU migrants who have as much right to apply for a job in the UK as you do in any other EU member state and most arrive with a job and housing sorted, they're not turning up demanding a hand out and a new home. Approximately 13% of the UK population are non-UK born so would at some stage have formed part of one yer's net migration gain and of them, the vast majority are gainfully employed and make a net contribution to the UK in terms of tax and NI and that's before we even look at the skills gap they help to fill in our ageing population that helps keep our schools and the NHS functional.
13% is a pretty normal figure when compared with the rest of the EU, slightly behind Austria, Spain, Sweden and Germany and slightly ahead of the rest. It's certainly not something the country can't handle and can't be compared to building 3 of your small towns new every year, you want to try living somewhere like Singapore where a country no bigger than the Isle of Wight has a population of almost 6 Million and almost 50% of those are foreign migrants who are wither brought in for their high skill levels or to do the general labour work in building the infrastructure and keeping the country running.
Personally I'd grant the asylum seekers right to apply and hear their cases in the proper system rather than trying to pretend they aren't there and hoping the French will take care of them, we're doing far less than the rest of Europe in dealing with a humanitarian crisis that our own foreign policies helped create and frankly it's embarassing having a desperate huddled mass shivering on our doorstep. For the economic migrants assess their skills and see if they fit a need in the job market. I'd far rather a determined young workforce proudly helping improve the country and contributing to taxes and NI whilst doing so than have them desperately huddled in poor employer sourced accommodation whilst they are exploited for illegal gain.
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Great post @Bury Red. This bit especially...
...is something which we, living here, don't really have a grasp of. A friend of mine spent 1-2 months out in Sarajevo, doing charity work, and he mentioned something similar. A lot of the clothes that were taken over were defective items from Marks and Spencer, Debenhams etc which literally had a tiny hole in the wrong place, or a broken zip, or whatever. Boxes and boxes of clothes. Now, obviously, it's a good thing that if they are going to waste here then they can benefit someone elsewhere, but it does make us seem a wasteful nation (in their eyes). Anyway, top post.
...is something which we, living here, don't really have a grasp of. A friend of mine spent 1-2 months out in Sarajevo, doing charity work, and he mentioned something similar. A lot of the clothes that were taken over were defective items from Marks and Spencer, Debenhams etc which literally had a tiny hole in the wrong place, or a broken zip, or whatever. Boxes and boxes of clothes. Now, obviously, it's a good thing that if they are going to waste here then they can benefit someone elsewhere, but it does make us seem a wasteful nation (in their eyes). Anyway, top post.
We also stripped out a cold war nuclear bunker from beneath a Manchester Hospital that was being decommissioned having thankfully never being needed, all the beds went out to kit out the dorm where the fire service team I was working with bunked down for the 3 years the works were ongoing, military ration packs went out to feed us and the medical unit was stripped and went out to the hospital with all the NHS surplus gear. The irony of stripping a cold war bunker and donating the contents to a former Eastern Bloc country was delicious, sadly the food was not. It was a weird place though, especially the main meeting room with it's world map on the round table in the centre like something out of Dr Strangelove.
I'm sure the British taxpayer would be less than impressed by the waste but as they weren't on the invite list for the bunker anyway, they probably never even knew it existed.
Please don't rush to judge these people. They do have problems, most of which have been caused in the first place by the situation they are in, but most problems can be sorted with help. The point I initially meant to make here is why do we have all this outrage about preventing poor desperate/not so poor but determined migrants into the country but seemingly none about our own poor, desperate and starving people. I realise their profile is lower than economic migrants but their need for help is far greater.
The increase in the need for teachers and medical staff is most likely proportional to the increase in population. Without one there wouldn't be a need for the other. Fortunately we have enough people able to train for these positions, not to mention those already trained who have left their professions for various reasons. The two million unemployed could also be trained to fill in skills gaps and keep the NHS functional. Not to mention save a fortune on state aid for these poor desperate forgotten people.
Most of those countries have a larger land mass than us. It makes a difference.
Give over...really, the "desperate huddled shivering mass" is overdoing it somewhat. Bold isn't necessary, I can read normal text. Having been both I can also understand the difference in meaning between desperate and determined.
Thanks for responding anyway.
I'm by no means belittling the plight of the homeless but the welfare system to help them is in place and is most likely failing them due to under funding. It's not fair to claim that migrants arriving with a job offer in hand are stealing jobs from the homeless however, most of them are a fair distance off the employment ladder and need major help before they can be put back on it which the new migrants taxes will hopefully help to fund. It's not the economic migrants with the high profile either, it's the asylum seekers, you'd barely notice the economic migrants until the Mail starts to rant about Polish plumbers or Norwegian nurses.
Teachers maybe, health care staff not likely. It's the UK's ageing and increasingly unhealthy population that put the strain on the underfunded NHS and as countries like Japan are finding out, when your natural birth rate starts dropping whilst life expectancy for the elderly increases you face many problems meeting the deficit in healthcare and pension funds as you lack the tax payers to keep the system working. That's where younger migrants really help, their net contribution to the UK in tax far exceeds what goes out in benefits to migrants and helps keep the system just about working for everyone.
The unemployed could and should be trained to fill the skills gap, but it's a gap that's existed for my whole life and the training has been on offer for all that time yet still 25% of the UK's 600,000 job vacancies each year go unfilled due to lack of skilled applicants whilst many more positions are filled by advertising in other EU member countries to get skilled migrants in.
Germany and France may have larger land masses than us but they are also taking 4 and 3 times the number of asylum seekers that we are, the likes of Belgium and the Netherlands have far higher population densities and take around the same number of asylum seekers and that's nothing when compared with Turkey which has an almost identical population density to us yet has 1.6 million Syrian asylum seekers compared with the 197 we have received.
The statistics repeatedly make it fairly clear, we are not doing our bit on humanitarian grounds when compared with our neighbours and that's before we even look at the morally ambiguous territory of our government's culpability in the situations that have forced so many people to seek asylum.
Maybe the bold was a rather patronising way of emphasising your choice to rebrand migrants from desperate to determined but at least I suggested a means for addressing the situation that should be for the benefit of everyone involved whilst all I see you doing is demonising migrants as a champion of the cause of our own impoverished people without suggesting any means of helping either group. The asylum seeker problem will not go away just because people want it to, EU economic migrants will continue to arrive to take up jobs in the UK as per their legal right unless we choose to withdraw from the EU and without the tax migrants pay, the work they do and the benefits EU trade brings the UK the plight of our poor and homeless would be far, far worse.
This is maybe where we are looking at things differently. You talk as if all of the migrants flooding into Europe are genuine asylum seekers. But are they? I can understand the desire of people who are desperate to flee their country in order to escape either being killed or facing starvation to seek asylum in a safe country. But when they land in a safe country and are offered asylum but refuse it because they want to live in a wealthier country, then to me they cease to be refugees and become economic migrants. They cease to be desperate (or they would accept asylum) and become determined.
To see some of these migrants refusing asylum and then dragging babies, children, pregnant women and the elderly across Europe when there is absolutely no need is pretty appalling behavior at best. At worst it's abuse. They should be offered asylum and if they refuse then they should be returned to their country of origin.
I have nothing against genuine asylum seekers and my point from the beginning was about economic migrants.
Economic immigrants are people too.
Yes - but they are people who have no right to live in this country.
We don't accept economic migrants from outside the EU unless they satisfy specific Home Office requirements for highly qualified or high net worth individuals, neither of which is likely to be a strain on the UK's financial resources.
If your objection is that the asylum seekers at Calais cease to be asylum seekers because they have crossed other European countries where they could have claimed asylum then we are simply burying our heads in the sand and expecting the Greeks, Italians, Spanish and Cypriots to deal with all the migrants who arrive there which they are clearly not capable of doing. Like it or not, we are part of the EU, and an even larger part of the cause of the distress in many of these peoples' lives and we should bear our share of the burden too.
Bit racist.
How are we the cause of their distress?
Yes, they are. Never disputed that.
I don't see how that is racist in the slightest. If they can prove they satisfy Home Office requirements then fine, otherwise they don't get to come in.
The requirements are pretty racist. And elitist to boot.
And you're still willing to send them back to war zones just because they declined asylum in a different country? That's not very nice.
fecking with their countries for centuries tends to have some nasty effects.