Bayern Munich

Feed Me

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So what's the secret behind their successes thus far this season?

Started well last season but ultimately fizzled out in the most disappointing fashion.

Will they be able to sustain their level this season?
 
The difference?

A big bench with quality - big hunger for success after two dry years - maybe a better team harmony (it seems like they grew together more) - some "talents" now really seem to have made the next step - they changed their system a little (better pressing, playing forward faster, more position changes)
 
First and foremost, money. Difference to last season is that they are working much better as a team (esp. in the League) and seem to have a better spirit. This year, I dont think they will collapse
 
They weren't really bad last season, they were a few minutes away from winning the Champions League and really battered Chelsea in that final.
 
Jupp Heynckes is another year in the job, top manager, and a squad full of fine players - they're certainly a big danger again this season in the UCL....
 
Escobar said:
First and foremost, money. Difference to last season is that they are working much better as a team (esp. in the League) and seem to have a better spirit. This year, I dont think they will collapse
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Why money - ok, they strengthened the bench - but Martinez, the 40-million-transfer - until now does not make the difference. He will show it after the winter break. Injuries have not been a trouble as there were good replacements - like for Gomez or Alaba. But it has not been expensive transfers that helped here. Badstuber might not be the best left fullback - but he did a decent job there and Dante took his usual job.

But - most important for the start was that Müller showed up with 7 goals and 7 assists, Kroos and Schweinsteiger and Gustavo played really good matches, Ribery (he started a little slow with little injury problems) is showing star form recently...
 
Blackwidow said:
Why money - ok, they strengthened the bench - but Martinez, the 40-million-transfer - until now does not make the difference. He will show it after the winter break. Injuries have not been a trouble as there were good replacements - like for Gomez or Alaba. But it has not been expensive transfers that helped here. Badstuber might not be the best left fullback - but he did a decent job there and Dante took his usual job.

But - most important for the start was that Müller showed up with 7 goals and 7 assists, Kroos and Schweinsteiger and Gustavo played really good matches, Ribery (he started a little slow with little injury problems) is showing star form recently...
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Bayern always had a reputation to buy up the League and in fairness, they did. They splash so much more money than any other club so it is hard to keep up with. The german league doesnt have other teams as strong as in England or so
 
Blackwidow said:
The difference?

A big bench with quality - big hunger for success after two dry years - maybe a better team harmony (it seems like they grew together more) - some "talents" now really seem to have made the next step - they changed their system a little (better pressing, playing forward faster, more position changes)
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So you think they're more fluid now?
 
Sarni said:
They weren't really bad last season, they were a few minutes away from winning the Champions League and really battered Chelsea in that final.
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But they led the Bundesliga at this sort of stage last season, and ended up blowing quite a commanding lead.

Did they get tired? Did they lack the required mentality?
 
For me it's really about the way they are playing this year.

While under van Gaal and even to some extend last year they often played very slow but with a lot of possession they seem to have gotten way better in their transition game and play with much more urgency after winning back the ball.

To some extend they have taken a good look at Borussia Dortmund and adopted their playing style while not losing much on the possession front.

I think it's not really at doubt that they have more quality in their squad then any other team in the league but last season they were often to predictable and slow and struggled against a lot of teams that had adopted a playing style relying on a compact defense and quick transitions.

Most noticeably in their games against Dortmund you could notice that their dominance in possession wasn't worth all that much if Dortmund sorted their defensive positions faster then they could get into good attacking positions.

But Bayern has evolved this season in terms of squad depth and in tactical areas on top of that they have a quality director of football this year in Matthias Sammer, someone who will do anything humanly possible to prevent this squad from slagging off.

I'm almost certain that they will win the Bundesliga this year quite easily and will probably get to the semi final of the CL at least.

I just know I wouldn't fancy us facing them this year, especially not with our shaky defense and often non existent midfield.
 
Escobar said:
Bayern always had a reputation to buy up the League and in fairness, they did. They splash so much more money than any other club so it is hard to keep up with. The german league doesnt have other teams as strong as in England or so
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They just did what every other club does. They just were on top of the chain. Isn't it very normal that a top clubs buys players from the clubs below - and that this clubs buy from the ones below - the smaller clubs in the Bundesliga from the ones of the second Bundesliga and so on. And it is normal that a player from a rank 4 or 5 clubs might be keen playing for the rank one club including the rise in money and reputation. And it is usually to the benefit of both clubs. Schalke e.g. needed that money for Neuer desperately.

Bayern in recent years was always the leading one in the league - but due to less money for TV etc. for the Bundesliga they used a lot money for being able to compete in Europe. So the margin between Bayern and the others has not been that big and Bayern won the championship often - but always had very good competition for it. It was never a one-man-show.
 
Bayern spend money that they make though. I think they're an excellent club.
 
Can someone please post a formation of the typical way they've been lining up this season? Has it been two holding players? How has Martinez settled? Is Schweini playing higher since his signing?
 
relx said:
Dante is a very good signing
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Who is the organiser in the backline? I keep seeing line ups including the likes of Badstuber, and he's never really impressed me. It doesn't strike me that Bayern have a big hitting centre back. How come their defensive stats are so good? Are the midfield getting through lots of work? Is it just that they retain the ball so well?
 
They amended the only thing that has been holding them back;their squad strength. The quality has always been in the first 11, they've got to the CL finals twice over the last 3 years. Their first 11, IMO is (if only slightly) superior to every other team apart from Barca, and that includes Madrid.
I'm absolutely amazed they are 10/1 to win the CL while Madrid are like 3/1. They should be second favourites I think. In the CL, more often than not, the midfield wins you games and they have the second best midfield in Europe, one that makes a player like Gomez look like a world beater. These days they can afford to have the likes of Gomez, Robben and Martinez out of the first 11, and for that reason they will win the league at a canter this season IMO.
 
Feed Me said:
So what's the secret behind their successes thus far this season?

Started well last season but ultimately fizzled out in the most disappointing fashion.

Will they be able to sustain their level this season?
Click to expand...

Good question.

I'll argue they were close last year, and only the defeat to Borussia sealed their fate. They started out really well, but they suffered a bunch of injuries / loss of form to key players (robben, ribery, gomez, muller, schweini). Neuer made some howlers. Bayern was stretched thin in the CL, whereas ultimately, Borussia's early exit from the CL last year, ensured that Klopp's team's had no European distractions.


I reckon the purchases of Mandzukic, Shaqiri, Martinez, Dante, Pizarro have strenghtened the squad quite a bit, and they will win the Bundesliga this year. How they do in the CL may depend on the form of Robben and Ribery.
 
Feed Me said:
Can someone please post a formation of the typical way they've been lining up this season? Has it been two holding players? How has Martinez settled? Is Schweini playing higher since his signing?
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This is how they lined up against Hamburg:

abDEWhuabd.jpeg


This is how they lined up against Lille (away):

lille.jpg


Against Hoffenheim:
Bayern_Hoffenheim_MD7_2012_2013.jpg
 
Suedesi said:
This is how they lined up against Hamburg:

abDEWhuabd.jpeg


This is how they lined up against Lille (away):

lille.jpg


Against Hoffenheim:
Bayern_Hoffenheim_MD7_2012_2013.jpg
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Thanks for these. Fair to say that the holding midfield duo (whoever they are week to week) are doing a lot of work to protect the back line?
 
Feed Me said:
Elaborate please...

I'm a Bundesliga newb!
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NoLogo has explained everything quite well.

Bayern have simply had a magnificent start to the season - they have added good players (Shaqiri, Martinez, Dante, Mandzukic) to bolster their squad and, with that, raised the level within the team.

BUT: they had a fine start to last year's campaign and ended up winning nothing - still don't think they have wrapped up the league yet.
 
Jaap said:
NoLogo has explained everything quite well.

Bayern have simply had a magnificent start to the season - they have added good players (Shaqiri, Martinez, Dante, Mandzukic) to bolster their squad and, with that, raised the level within the team.

BUT: they had a fine start to last year's campaign and ended up winning nothing - still don't think they have wrapped up the league yet.
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Last point is one that I'm interested in.

Surely the additional squad depth will help them this time? And the fact that Dortmund has the CL distraction this time round?
 
Escobar said:
Bayern always had a reputation to buy up the League and in fairness, they did. They splash so much more money than any other club so it is hard to keep up with. The german league doesnt have other teams as strong as in England or so
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That's a bit of a blanket statement, but Schalke and Dortmund are doing better than Arsenal and ManC in their respective groups.
 
You can't rate them because they are doing well in bundesliga, since quality of bundesliga isn't the highest.

I personally rate them because they are doing well every year in champions league, but even for that one of the main reasons is also down to lack of quality in bundesliga, they can easily rest their best player in almost every game and can play their best team in champions league because most of their tittle challengers in bundesliga(except dortmund) are mediocre teams. Almost every year one of the teams that is challenging them for the tittle, fought against relegation in previous season.
You have players like Kiessling, Mame Biram Diouf being one of top scorers in league.

Other reason for them doing well in champions league is their strong first XI, almost every year that is their strongest weapon, and when you can play your strongest XI in almost every game in champions league, of course you will do good. Yet, looking through their whole squad, it had no depth at all in last few years. This year they strengthened their bench too, they bought some players, but still they don't have squad that good as ours, or City's, but it's good enough to win them easily Bundesliga IMO, and probably do well again in CL.
 
Amar__ said:
You can't rate them because they are doing well in bundesliga, since quality of bundesliga isn't the highest.
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German teams are unbeaten in 14 games in the CL and Euro League this year - and there are a lot of teams with high quality.

The Diouf argument doesn't work - Dzeko has shown that he can score goals for fun in the Premier League and there surely have been other examples.

@ Feed Me

Bayern's bigger squad might help them this time around, good point - Dortmund, on the other hand, also have a larger squad than last season and gained valuable experience in the Champions League last year.

I might have this opinion because I don't like Bayern and hope they will go another season without winning the domestic title.
 
Jaap said:
German teams are unbeaten in 14 games in the CL and Euro League this year - and there are a lot of teams with high quality.

The Diouf argument doesn't work - Dzeko has shown that he can score goals for fun in the Premier League and there surely have been other examples.
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Euro league isn't really good argument also, while I agree that they are doing very well in champions league this year, but let's wait a bit, it's just one year, and it's just a group phase.

And you can't compare Dzeko to Diouf or Kiessling, he is far more quality player then both those, he is proven in champions league, europa league, and playing for his national team.
 
Amar__ said:
You can't rate them because they are doing well in bundesliga, since quality of bundesliga isn't the highest.

...

You have players like Kiessling, Mame Biram Diouf being one of top scorers in league.
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I don't agree at all about the lack of quality in the Bundesliga - on the pitch there's little to separate it from La Liga or the Premier League, it's just a long way behind the Premier League commercially and can't compete with the glamour of Madrid/Barca. It's getting there though, IMO.

Regardless of that the Diouf argument is very strange. Last year we had Holt, Yakubu and Dempsey in the top 8 scorers; the year before we had Kuyt, DJ Campbell and Andy Carroll. Then there's the likes of Kevin Davies, Agbonlahor, Benjani, Doyle, Harewood, Henri Camara, Crouch, Forssell and Andy Johnson amongst others in the last decade that have made it into the top 10...every league has mediocre players scoring an impressive amount of goals.
 
Brwned said:
I don't agree at all about the lack of quality in the Bundesliga - on the pitch there's little to separate it from La Liga or the Premier League, it's just a long way behind the Premier League commercially and can't compete with the glamour of Madrid/Barca. It's getting there though, IMO.

Regardless of that the Diouf argument is very strange. Last year we had Holt, Yakubu and Dempsey in the top 8 scorers; the year before we had Kuyt, DJ Campbell and Andy Carroll. Then there's the likes of Kevin Davies, Agbonlahor, Benjani, Doyle, Harewood, Henri Camara, Crouch, Forssell and Andy Johnson amongst others in the last decade that have made it into the top 10...every league has mediocre players scoring an impressive amount of goals.
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More generally, why do you think Bayern are looking more impressive this season fella? Do you think they'll be able to sustain their performance levels this term?
 
Brwned said:
I don't agree at all about the lack of quality in the Bundesliga - on the pitch there's little to separate it from La Liga or the Premier League, it's just a long way behind the Premier League commercially and can't compete with the glamour of Madrid/Barca. It's getting there though, IMO.

Regardless of that the Diouf argument is very strange. Last year we had Holt, Yakubu and Dempsey in the top 8 scorers; the year before we had Kuyt, DJ Campbell and Andy Carroll. Then there's the likes of Kevin Davies, Agbonlahor, Benjani, Doyle, Harewood, Henri Camara, Crouch, Forssell and Andy Johnson amongst others in the last decade that have made it into the top 10...every league has mediocre players scoring an impressive amount of goals.
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Top8 goalscorers? top10 goalscorers? I am talking more about top3, kiessling regulary ends up there, gekas as worst finisher in the world end up in fith place. Top8 for a one season goalscorers it's not even a top list, even midfielders end up in that.

Can you explain me then how things like this happen regulary in league that is supposed to be quality as PL and La liga:

-Borussia last year won the league by 8 points, this season they won 19 points from eleven games
- It's same for Frankfurt this year, they were promoted to Bundesliga this season, and are third in the league at the moment, insane.
- Hannover in season 09/10 escaped relegation for two points, next season they end up in fourth place.
- Werder end up third in 2009/10 season, and in next season end up as thirtieenth,
- Schalke that year lost tittle by five points, next year end up on fourteenth place, 6 points from relegation, season before they finished eight
-Wolfsburg in 2008/2009 won the tittle, season before they end up in fifth place, season after they finished eight

These kind of things say a lot about quality of that league from year to year, this kind of oscilation would never happen if there are at least two or three quality teams every year.

And German teams are quite poor in champions league over last 5 years or so. Apart from Bayern, some of the better results from last years were:
- Leverkusen reaching the 1/8 finals in 2011/12 season(they lost to barca 10-2 in two games)
- Schalke reaching semi's year before, we murdered them with our second team in rematch at old trafford. They reached semi by winning against inter that was shit that year, and valencia.
- Season before Stuttgart reached quarter finals
- in 2008/09 no one(except bayern who lost in quarter finals) from bundesliga reached knockout phase
- In 2007/08 only leverkusen reached the knockout round, I think Bayern didn't even play CL that year, Stuttgart end up 4th in their group behind rangers.

Based on what are you even considered matching them to Premiership and La Liga?

I agree Bundesliga is fun to watch, probably best league in the world in that aspect and I really enjoy watching them, but looking through quality of teams and players, BL is nowhere near close to premiership and la liga. And I don't think it's getting there, I would rather say quality is dropping from year to year.
 
Kießling was 8th in 2011/12 with 16 goals. In 2010/11 he was 34th. Right now he is third - but there is only 11 matches played.

Gekas two years ago had half of a season in which he scored 14 goals in half a season - and another 2 in the second part of the season only against a later relegated team. He has been crap before that - and afterwards.

Most Bundesliga teams in the recent years - it is changing in the last two - had problems to be good internationally and at the same time challenging for a high spot in the Bundesliga. When e.g. a club reached the CL spots in one year - the Bundesliga financing laws somehow do not let them make heavy investments to strengthen their squad like you want - or the clubs were to careful as player contracts are not just made for a year. So with a small bench etc. so often struggled in the league the next year - or they did not make it in Europe - or both. The financial laws in the Bundesliga - and the lesser TV money made it difficult for the Bundesliga to compete.

Based on what are you even considered matching them to Premiership and La Liga?

Current developments...

The players of the youth academies start to get into the squads and now have their first international experiences. You are right when you talk about four or five years ago - but we talk about now. Some things go pretty fast. The lesser money is not really important anymore if you do not need expensive stars anymore but live in the abundance of really great talents.

Bayern 2008/09 was the Klinsmann Bayern - prior to van Gaal. The only players that are still left (besides van Buyten who is not playing very often but is a good benchwarmer with 34) are Lahm, Schweinsteiger and Ribery. Van Gaal changed the system, some players left and he put some young ones in. They had a pass accuracy from about 75% prior to van Gaal - a lot individuality but no team work. With van Gaal they got a ball possession team with the second most possession and second best pass acuracy in Europe behind Barcelona. I just want to show you that you cannot compare the situation some years ago and now.

Look at Schalke. The Schalke you met 2 years ago is not the same of today. They had some of the same players they use today - you should have looked at the age of some of the players you have played against. A 19-year old Papadopoulos, a 20-year-old Matip, Uchida was 21, Draxler 17. I would not say that they would beat you today - but they would have a lot chances now - and will in the future.

Dortmund is already a step ahead of them by now.

Leverkusen last year in the CL... - you know that they asked for Messi's kit already in the break of the first leg... They tried to play with Barcelona openly... You should not... :cool:
 
Amar is definitely right when he says there aren't any teams in the Bundesliga that can constantly challenge for the title apart from Bayern.

Dortmund seems to be on a good way to get there but they are still a few level below Bayern on an economical level and have to actually challenge for trophies in Germany over a longer period then two season to be considered another big player.

To really compete with La Liga and the EPL there would need to be at least two more clubs close to Bayerns level and of course the TV deal would have to get a lot better then it is atm because that's where the PL is really light years ahead of the Bundesliga.

That being said Dortmund and Schalke could grow into this role over the next 10 years or so but of course it's a long way to go and over the last couple of decades no team really managed to grow into this role.

Non the less the Bundesliga has made immense progress over the last 5 years, a lot of rethinking in terms of squad building and player education has taken place and the effects are starting to show.

Just look at UEFA coefficient the gap to the PL has been closing drastically over the last couple of years so the Bundesliga is not that far behind anymore.
 
Blackwidow said:
Kießling was 8th in 2011/12 with 16 goals. In 2010/11 he was 34th. Right now he is third - but there is only 11 matches played.

Gekas two years ago had half of a season in which he scored 14 goals in half a season - and another 2 in the second part of the season only against a later relegated team. He has been crap before that - and afterwards.

Most Bundesliga teams in the recent years - it is changing in the last two - had problems to be good internationally and at the same time challenging for a high spot in the Bundesliga. When e.g. a club reached the CL spots in one year - the Bundesliga financing laws somehow do not let them make heavy investments to strengthen their squad like you want - or the clubs were to careful as player contracts are not just made for a year. So with a small bench etc. so often struggled in the league the next year - or they did not make it in Europe - or both. The financial laws in the Bundesliga - and the lesser TV money made it difficult for the Bundesliga to compete.
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Yeah, I know Gekas is shit, that's why I'm amazed how still he had solid record there.

I understand what are you talking, but that's their problem, lack of financial power is almost always main problem.

Blackwidow said:
Based on what are you even considered matching them to Premiership and La Liga?

Current developments...
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Yeah, I read about that, how Germans improved their football schools in last 5-10 years, and it's clear it's being paid out in recent years, but I still don't see teams that improved much, except Dortumnd. Okay, there are lot of talents there, but still those are just talents, they aren't yet world class players. For example, I look at Schalke's team, and I still see team full of young talents. Those are great talents, but they still don't make a big team, if you get what I'm trying to say.
 
Bayern were good last year. Deserved to win the CL. But they have noticably improved their squad, and critically their starting XI, considerably. Muller is on form, after a poor season last year. Kroos is a year old and improving all the time. He will be world class (if he isn't already) no doubt. Dante has really shored them up at the back. Mandzukic is a vast improvement over the infuriating Gomez. And Schweinsteiger + Martinez has to be as good as any midfield pairing in world football. God, what I wouldn't do for that pairing at OT.

Not to turn this into another 'woe is our midfield' thread. But compare Scheinsteiger, Martinez and Kroos to the best midfield trio we could put out. You know, only if you want to be depressed like....
 
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