BBC Panorama on Labour anti-Semitism

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Fully Fledged said:
Are they doing one on Islamophobia in the Tory Party the week after.
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I think the Dispatches program on Channel 4 on Monday got into it, not sure in how much depth though.
 
You expect racism from the right. The left are meant to stand against such things. An utter disgrace over which Corbyn should take responsibility. He already needed to go and hopefully this will be the straw that .....
 
Wibble said:
You expect racism from the right. The left are meant to stand against such things. An utter disgrace over which Corbyn should take responsibility. He already needed to go and hopefully this will be the straw that .....
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Really? Because from what I can see it’s being universally laughed off as a very poorly executed hatchet job. There are even videos doing the rounds with unedited interviews that don’t show the doc in a particularly pleasant light.
 
Can someone explain to me why people think Labour is anti-Semitic?

I tried reading up about this subject and from what I’ve read it’s mainly about criticising Israel’s treatment of Palestine.
 
Rolandofgilead said:
Really? Because from what I can see it’s being universally laughed off as a very poorly executed hatchet job. There are even videos doing the rounds with unedited interviews that don’t show the doc in a particularly pleasant light.
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There as been an issue with this for a long time - this is hardly the first time it has been mentioned. You suspect the Palastinian issue has only made it worse since Corbyn is very anti Israel/pro Palestine and the party's stance has changed quite a bit since Corbyn came to power.
 
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Josep Dowling said:
Can someone explain to me why people think Labour is anti-Semitic?

I tried reading up about this subject and from what I’ve read it’s mainly about criticising Israel’s treatment of Palestine.
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It’s a combination of Corbyn and friends’ willingness to stand alongside or tolerate antisemites who share their anti-Zionist platform, the perception that they don’t really recognize or understand the more subtle expressions of antisemitism, a somewhat conspiratorial approach to understanding the conflict in the Middle East which often reflects antisemitic tropes, and a perceived failure to deal with the issue among the wider party membership.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Can someone explain to me why people think Labour is anti-Semitic?

I tried reading up about this subject and from what I’ve read it’s mainly about criticising Israel’s treatment of Palestine.
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.There are some anti semites in the Labour Party just like there are some racists, sexists, homophobes in the party because well British is sadly all of those things. Although anti semtism has gone down in the party since Corbyn has become leader and the party has adopted measure to fight against anti semitism. Plus with remembering the labour before Corbyn had a Jewish leader in Ed.

.Corbyn due to working with the Palestine movement has meet with anti Semites.

.Corbyn support of Palestine doesn't of course go down well with Jewish people who have no issue with the actions of Israel. Or see criticism as a threat to the Israeli state.

.The Right see it as a way to attack both the labour leadership and the membership.

.The media has ramped it massively to the point where it seems like there is a crisis and that there is threat to British Jews from the Labour Party. Which is laughably but some actually beileve this. The documentary this thread is about had edited quotes from Labour staff and fail to grill the former general secretary on why he did nothing about anti semtism in the party for 3 years.
 
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Sweet Square said:
.There are some anti semites in the Labour Party just like there are some racists, sexists, homophobes in the party because well British is sadly all of those things. Although anti semtism has gone down in the party since Corbyn has become leader and the party has adopted measure to fight against anti semitism. Plus with remembering the labour before Corbyn had a Jewish leader in Ed.

.Corbyn due to working with the Palestine movement has meet with anti Semites.

.Corbyn support of Palestine doesn't of course go down well with Jewish people who have no issue with the actions of Israel. Or see criticism as a threat to the Israeli state.

.The Right see it as a way to attack both the labour leadership and the membership.

.The media has ramped it massively to the point where it seems like there is a crisis and that there is threat to British Jews from the Labour Party. Which is laughably but some actually beileve this. The documentary this thread is about had edited quotes from Labour staff and fail to grill the former general secretary on why he did nothing about anti semtism in the party for 3 years.
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I love how you trot this out without a single acknowledgement of how Jews themselves see it.
 
nickm said:
I love how you trot this out without a single acknowledgement of how Jews themselves see it.
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This is just a meaningless post. Unless your referring this this part of my post(Which maybe you read wrongly ?). I of course wasn't talking about all British Jews.

Sweet Square said:
.

.Corbyn support of Palestine doesn't of course go down well with Jewish people who have no issue with the actions of Israel. Or see criticism as a threat to the Israeli state.
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There are of course quite a lot of British Jews who do have issues with the policies of Israel(Aalthough these numbers aren't that great either).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...finds-widespread-unease-with-israels-policies


Secondly there isn't one British Jewish view on well on anything let alone on the Labour Party.

When there are claims of racism put forward by anyone I tend to want to see what these are claims no matter who is making them. And yes there has been of course anti semtism in the Labour Party because as I've said before there is anti semtism in British society but again anti semitism has gone down in the party since Corbyn become leader and the party has put in new measures to fight anti semitism. If there are people who still think Labour Party poses a threat to Jewish people then sorry I think these people are at best, very very misguided and stupid.
 
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Josep Dowling said:
Can someone explain to me why people think Labour is anti-Semitic?

I tried reading up about this subject and from what I’ve read it’s mainly about criticising Israel’s treatment of Palestine.
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If you wait, the EHRC will be able to tell you. Embarrassingly, they are investigating whether this venerable anti racist party is in fact racist.
 
nickm said:
If you wait, the EHRC will be able to tell you. Embarrassingly, they are investigating whether this venerable anti racist party is in fact racist.
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Honest question, why is it embarrassing?

There is clearly something there, and Corbyn really doesn't paint himself in a great light. So why shouldn't they be investigated?

It's confusing how people don't see that even if the programme could be a hatchet job, that the answer is not claiming conspiracy but simply proving it wrong. Does ever just shouting "bias!!!" work?
 
Redlambs said:
Honest question, why is it embarrassing?

There is clearly something there, and Corbyn really doesn't paint himself in a great light. So why shouldn't they be investigated?

It's confusing how people don't see that even if the programme could be a hatchet job, that the answer is not claiming conspiracy but simply proving it wrong. Does ever just shouting "bias!!!" work?
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What I mean is Labour should be embarrassed.
 
Sweet Square said:
This is just a meaningless post. Unless your referring this this part of my post(Which maybe you read wrongly ?). I of course wasn't talking about all British Jews.
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Your post was a rejection of claims of antisemitism which ignored all the claims of antisemitism made by the affected group. Talk about missing the main event. My post pointed that out.
 
nickm said:
Your post was a rejection of claims of antisemitism which ignored all the claims of antisemitism made by the affected group. Talk about missing the main event. My post pointed that out.
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It wasn't.

Cheers for wasting both our time.
 
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Amazing how not supporting Israel in the conflict against Palestine gets you a documentary that's designed to turn people against you on publicly-funded television these days.
 
nickm said:
I’m afraid your party does not get the benefit of the doubt on this. Hence the echr investigation.
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Literally nothing to do with the claims your making against my post but ok whatever.
 
yeah, your post was basically that accusations
Sweet Square said:
.There are some anti semites in the Labour Party just like there are some racists, sexists, homophobes in the party because well British is sadly all of those things. Although anti semtism has gone down in the party since Corbyn has become leader and the party has adopted measure to fight against anti semitism. Plus with remembering the labour before Corbyn had a Jewish leader in Ed.
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Is it really true that Labour was more anti-semitic when it had a Jewish leader?
 
Ekkie Thump said:
yeah, your post was basically that accusations
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Nick said my post was a rejection of the claims of anti semtism

My post

Sweet Square said:
.There are some anti semites in the Labour Party just like there are some racists, sexists, homophobes in the party because well British is sadly all of those things. Although anti semtism has gone down in the party since Corbyn has become leader and the party has adopted measure to fight against anti semitism. Plus with remembering the labour before Corbyn had a Jewish leader in Ed.

.Corbyn due to working with the Palestine movement has meet with anti Semites.
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I've never rejected that the accusations or worries of there being anti semtism in the Labour Party. What I've rejected is the idea that the Labour Party is institutional anti semtisc and is somehow a danger to British Jews.

We've got to the bizzare point where I seen Noam Chomsky getting accused of being a anti Semite because he thinks the scandal is just a way to attack Corbyn and a left Labour Party.




Ekkie Thump said:
Is it really true that Labour was more anti-semitic when it had a Jewish leader?
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https://evolvepolitics.com/yougov-p...amatically-since-jeremy-corbyn-became-leader/
 
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Sweet Square said:
Nick said my post was a rejection of the claims of anti semtism

My post



I've never rejected that the accusations or worries of there being anti semtism in the Labour Party. What I've rejected is the idea that the Labour Party is institutional anti semtisc and is somehow a danger to British Jews.

We've got to the bizzare point where I seen Noam Chomsky getting accused of being a anti Semite because he thinks the scandal is just a way to attack Corbyn and a left Labour Party.






https://evolvepolitics.com/yougov-p...amatically-since-jeremy-corbyn-became-leader/
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To finish the part of my post that I thought I'd deleted - "Yeah, your post was basically that accusations of anti-semitism have been overblown, which I somewhat agree with. I'm not convinced anti-semitism in the party's gone down under Corbyn's leadership though."

That poll is also less than convincing since there's a great deal of difference between a party member and a party supporter. It strikes me as pretty likely that Corbyn's stance on Israel combined his successful efforts to broaden the membership is likely to have resulted in far more outspoken, widespread opposition to Israel among the rank and file. Along with that almost inevitably comes a much smaller but still substantial number of people willing to widen this antipathy to Jews in general.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
To finish the part of my post that I thought I'd deleted - "Yeah, your post was basically that accusations of anti-semitism have been overblown, which I somewhat agree with. I'm not convinced anti-semitism in the party's gone down under Corbyn's leadership though."
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Oh right fair enough.

Ekkie Thump said:
That poll is also less than convincing since there's a great deal of difference between a party member and a party supporter. It strikes me as pretty likely that Corbyn's stance on Israel combined his successful efforts to broaden the membership is likely to have resulted in far more outspoken, widespread opposition to Israel among the rank and file. Along with that almost inevitably comes a much smaller but still substantial number of people willing to widen this antipathy to Jews in general.
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All we can go off is the polling we've got and until there is large polling on members we won't know anything for sure. Also what would a substantial number for a political party with a membership of half a million be ? Of course one anti Semite is too many but it's impossible for a large political to know everything about its membership. (Plus Labour has adopted measures to fight anti semtism in the party).

If discussion was actually about trying to make Labour as anti racist as possible(Very difficult task)then great. But what is happened now has nothing to do with anti racism.
 
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I just watched this.

It is one of the funniest and yet infuriating things I have ever watched. Nobody with a brain cell can possibly take it as anything more than a poorly attempted hatchet job.

Yes BBC there might actually be an issue within the party, but cherry picking parts of emails without adding context, not naming any names except one member that was banished and of course, KenLivingstone. Taking the mural completely out of context (were the Jewish because they had big noses? If so, who is the racist considering the artist said it depicted the Rothschild and elite bankers dining out from working classes, yes, I’m aware the Rothschilds are Jewish, but I dislike and disagree with Trump it doesn’t mean I hate Americans) and generally insulting everybody’s intelligence by adding no evidence at all.

Pointless hatchet job.
 
Rolandofgilead said:
Yes BBC there might actually be an issue within the party, but cherry picking parts of emails without adding context, not naming any names except one member that was banished and of course, KenLivingstone. Taking the mural completely out of context (were the Jewish because they had big noses? If so, who is the racist considering the artist said it depicted the Rothschild and elite bankers dining out from working classes, yes, I’m aware the Rothschilds are Jewish, but I dislike and disagree with Trump it doesn’t mean I hate Americans) and generally insulting everybody’s intelligence by adding no evidence at all.

Pointless hatchet job.
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The mural is totally antisemitic, it plays into many conspiracy theories about the Jews, ones that inspire Nazis and fascists. It even features the all seeing eye and references the new world order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
 
Classical Mechanic said:
The mural is totally antisemitic, it plays into many conspiracy theories about the Jews, ones that inspire Nazis and fascists. It even features the all seeing eye and references the new world order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
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No it isn't and I'll tell you why. The Warburgs and Rothschilds are jewish, the others are not. It is because they are all banking magnates and not all jews or any particular culture, race or belief. The pyramid is a Freemasonry symbol and not of the 'Illuminati'. They are playing Monopoly not reading the Torah.

I'm a Labour Party member and I've been searching for Anti-Semitism within the party for a couple of years and if anyone in the labour party had wanted to satisfy my search I'm certain they'd have given me a time and a meeting place by now.
 
oates said:
No it isn't and I'll tell you why. The Warburgs and Rothschilds are jewish, the others are not. It is because they are all banking magnates and not all jews or any particular culture, race or belief. The pyramid is a Freemasonry symbol and not of the 'Illuminati'. They are playing Monopoly not reading the Torah.

I'm a Labour Party member and I've been searching for Anti-Semitism within the party for a couple of years and if anyone in the labour party had wanted to satisfy my search I'm certain they'd have given me a time and a meeting place by now.
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Sorry Oates but even the artists explanation as to why it wasn't antisemitic proved that it was antisemitic. He claims that its Jewish and Anglo bankers controlling the world at the expense of the working classes etc. This is a key part of the Jewish conspiracy, that they've been controlling the powerful Anglo nations, the British Empire and America to their own nefarious aims.

The all seeing eye is the key symbol of the Illuminati and New World Order conspiracies, it's literally on the top of the wiki link I posted. Look it up, you'll find Nazi memes where they depict the Star of David on the pyramid. The Freemasons are also a core part of these conspiracy theories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
 
Classical Mechanic said:
The mural is totally antisemitic, it plays into many conspiracy theories about the Jews, ones that inspire Nazis and fascists. It even features the all seeing eye and references the new world order.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
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Ahh I must admit I did wonder about the eye but I dismissed it as a reference to big brother or generally orwailian. It looked to me like as I said it was a mural that depicted the wealthy monopolising whilst eating off the back of the working classes. Perhaps as it’s art it can be seen from different perspectives?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Sorry Oates but even the artists explanation as to why it wasn't antisemitic proved that it was antisemitic. He claims that its Jewish and Anglo bankers controlling the world at the expense of the working classes etc. This is a key part of the Jewish conspiracy, that they've been controlling the powerful Anglo nations, the British Empire and America to their own nefarious aims.

The all seeing eye is the key symbol of the Illuminati and New World Order conspiracies, it's literally on the top of the wiki link I posted. Look it up, you'll find Nazi memes where they depict the Star of David on the pyramid. The Freemasons are also a core part of these conspiracy theories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
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Ockerman answered the suggestion that it was racist in 2012

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mere-one-mural-east-london-politics-antisemitism-392209

"I came to paint a mural that depicted the elite banker cartel known as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Morgans, the ruling class elite few, the Wizards of Oz. They would be playing a board game of monopoly on the backs of the working class. The symbol of the Free Mason Pyramid rises behind this group and behind that is a polluted world of coal burning and nuclear reactors. I was creating this piece to inspire critical thought and spark conversation."

Just because the picture includes an element discussing the New World Order doesn't mean the mural is anti-semitic.
 
Rolandofgilead said:
Ahh I must admit I did wonder about the eye but I dismissed it as a reference to big brother or generally orwailian. It looked to me like as I said it was a mural that depicted the wealthy monopolising whilst eating off the back of the working classes. Perhaps as it’s art it can be seen from different perspectives?
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It's that easy to be taken in.
 
oates said:
Ockerman answered the suggestion that it was racist in 2012

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mere-one-mural-east-london-politics-antisemitism-392209

"I came to paint a mural that depicted the elite banker cartel known as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Morgans, the ruling class elite few, the Wizards of Oz. They would be playing a board game of monopoly on the backs of the working class. The symbol of the Free Mason Pyramid rises behind this group and behind that is a polluted world of coal burning and nuclear reactors. I was creating this piece to inspire critical thought and spark conversation."

Just because the picture includes an element discussing the New World Order doesn't mean the mural is anti-semitic.
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Again, you're just posting proof that this is antisemitic. You're being wilfully ignorant to it I feel. Its layered in antisemitic tropes and even Corbyn held his hands up to it once called out on it.

What do you make of the accusations that the hook nosed bankers resembled the depiction of Jews in Nazi propaganda?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Stürmer
 
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