Berbatov | Fulham player

[kouroux]

I'm not sure playing Berbatov provides extra "chemistry". I'm not saying HE is a bad player either, but his inclusion always slows our game down. We are not Barcelona, we should always play with pace, that is when we are most effective.

Incidentally, I get very frustrated when Welbeck decides to drop deep too because Rooney is already doing that most of the game. That said, Welbeck generally does find more advanced positions than Berbatov does.

I meant that for Welbeck...
In simpler words, Berbatov > Welbeck from an individual point of view but Welbeck's chemistry > Berba's chemistry and Welbeck being the future and all, SAF chooses to give him good playing time

 

[Amir]

I don't think there's anything sinister about Berbatov not being involved. He knows he's going, we know he's going, maybe Fergie feels it's not a good platform for us to play him. Maybe he's seen something in training. Welbeck was doing very well until recently and there was on reason to play Berbatov instead. He's had a drop in form and it turns out Hernandez form also isn't good. Maybe Berbatov is now a gamble worth taking. We know he blows hot and cold. If we get him on a hot streak, it could mean the title.

 

[finneh]

The last 4 games Berbatov started were:

3-2 Loss vs Blackburn
3-0 Loss vs Newcastle
2-0 Win vs Stoke
2-1 Loss vs Ajax

Combine that with the fact that he isn't effective coming off the bench and the reason he isn't getting games becomes pretty straightforward. Although I do recognise that he is being remembered with more and more fondness in every game that he doesn't play.

*Before the hindsight of the Wigan game the last league game we lost with Berbatov not starting was the City game on October 23rd.

 

[acnumber9]

The last 4 games Berbatov started were:

3-2 Loss vs Blackburn
3-0 Loss vs Newcastle
2-0 Win vs Stoke
2-1 Loss vs Ajax

Combine that with the fact that he isn't effective coming off the bench and the reason he isn't getting games becomes pretty straightforward. Although I do recognise that he is being remembered with more and more fondness in every game that he doesn't play.

*Before the hindsight of the Wigan game the last league game we lost with Berbatov not starting was the City game on October 23rd.

Because the inclusion of Berbatov was the problem in those games wasn't it? Of the 5 goals scored in those games Berbatov scored 3 and created another. He was also taken off at 1-0 in the Newcastle game. The game he started prior to those four he scored a hat trick in.

 

[Hectic]

The last 4 games Berbatov started were:

3-2 Loss vs Blackburn
3-0 Loss vs Newcastle
2-0 Win vs Stoke
2-1 Loss vs Ajax

Combine that with the fact that he isn't effective coming off the bench and the reason he isn't getting games becomes pretty straightforward. Although I do recognise that he is being remembered with more and more fondness in every game that he doesn't play.

*Before the hindsight of the Wigan game the last league game we lost with Berbatov not starting was the City game on October 23rd.

What kind of awful logic is that? He contributed with goals and assists in some of those games. 4 games, 3 goals and 1 assist. Make that 5 games, 6 goals and 1 assist.

You're highlighting his direct value and input in those games, yet bizzarly use it as a negative. Completely mental.

 

[towcester_red]

Wasnt Berbatovs fault that we let in some ridiculous goals in those games!

 

[towcester_red]

I like him, its a real shame its ending this way for him really.

 

[Plan M]

Who cares if Berb's future isn't with us, we need to win the title and he'd only help the cause just as he did last season.

I'd much rather see him up top than Hernandez or Welbeck right now. He's a more intelligent, calmer footballer and we need calm in front of goal right now.

 

[finneh]

What kind of awful logic is that? He contributed with goals and assists in some of those games. 4 games, 3 goals and 1 assist. Make that 5 games, 6 goals and 1 assist.

You're highlighting his direct value and input in those games, yet bizzarly use it as a negative. Completely mental.

Am I too assume that you feel it is a coincidence that when he starts we generally do worse as a team (1.6 points a game vs 2.54 points per game)?

 

[sammsky1]

This is exactly how I feel. I just feel so sorry for him that I'm actually annoyed with Fergie

Me too, unless of course they have had a huge personal bust up.

I don't see merit in the 'Welbeck/Hernandez' is the future so they must play' logic. They have all of the next 2 seasons to prove they are worthy long term assets for the club. Berbatov would undoubtedly have added options to our team from the bench. Yes, we have been on an amazing run, but that does not preclude his not being involved, just because the club has decided it will sell him this summer.

We will know on the final day of the season .... if he is allowed to say farewell to the fans, either through one final appearance on jet walking around the pitch. Remember back to 2006, despite his amazing services to the club, SAF even denied that privilege to an an undoubted legend, RvN. Ruud and SAF fell out and RvN was sent home on the final day at lunchtime.

I don't have a problem with this policy per se, SAF is right to manage the club in anyway he sees fit, the manager has to be right and be supported at all costs, until you remove him. And if there has been a fall out, the SAF has to assert his authority. Thats fine with me.

Even if Berbatov has gotten fed up with his lack of opportunities this seasons (he has every right to be) and so vented that frustration out within the club, perhaps in front of everybody at Carrington, and that is why SAF has 'frozen him out', I don't think Berbatov's complaints are unmerited and not unfounded.

But if there has not been a fallout, then its a shame all around, a messy one and it makes me feel sad and uncomfortable.

The BerbaHaters can now bask in glory. Enjoy. But whilst enjoying seeing Welbeck develop this year, I have missed Berbatovs elegance, poise and talent all season long. We all bang on for muppet transfers, and then we get one, a genuine footballing talent and the fans are on his back from day 1. Hope he gets a move to Bayern or another elite CL team. He will do very well if serviced properly.

 

[EricaNo7]

As of today, I don't think there is a single aspect of football in which Welbeck can be better than Berbatov except pace.Keeping the ball, Berba is better, linking up Berba is better, shooting Berba is better, scoring Berba is better.
Welbeck is without a doubt the future but the Bulgarian is currently a better player.Hopefully by the end of the season, the decision to not play him at all will not cost the team in some way

This is exactly my concern .

 

[Hectic]

Am I too assume that you feel it is a coincidence that when he starts we generally do worse as a team (1.6 points a game vs 2.54 points per game)?

Assume what you like. All I'm saying it talking about four games, where Berbatov scored 3 goals and assisted one, isn't the greatest of evidence on why he shouldn't be playing.

 

[Hectic]

Also the fact that Welbeck and Hernandez do have futures here, and Berbatov doesn't, should mean it surely doesn't matter about getting them playing time. We know he won't be here next season, so it's not like they are going to be massively hindered by his inclusion over them. I'd rather we acknowledge both of those players are the future, and use Berbatov as much as possible while we have him left, and while we need him.

 

[Adzzz]

Assume what you like. All I'm saying it talking about four games, where Berbatov scored 3 goals and assisted one, isn't the greatest of evidence on why he shouldn't be playing.

Infact...it's completely the opposite of 'negative evidence'...

Now let's use him to fire ourselves to number 20.

 

[EricaNo7]

Also the fact that Welbeck and Hernandez do have futures here, and Berbatov doesn't, should mean it surely doesn't matter about getting them playing time. We know he won't be here next season, so it's not like they are going to be massively hindered by his inclusion over them. I'd rather we acknowledge both of those players are the future, and use Berbatov as much as possible while we have him left, and while we need him.

Exactly . I'd love him to go out in a blaze of glory

 

[acnumber9]

Am I too assume that you feel it is a coincidence that when he starts we generally do worse as a team (1.6 points a game vs 2.54 points per game)?

When you use stats to back up your argument you need to do it better. The fact you deliberately chose his last four starts rather than his last five shows you weren't trying to portray Berbatov in a good light.

Where did you get the stats for those point returns?

 

[mariachi-19]

Also the fact that Welbeck and Hernandez do have futures here, and Berbatov doesn't, should mean it surely doesn't matter about getting them playing time. We know he won't be here next season, so it's not like they are going to be massively hindered by his inclusion over them. I'd rather we acknowledge both of those players are the future, and use Berbatov as much as possible while we have him left, and while we need him.

At the same time, you have to plan for the future. Game time now allows fergie to decide whether we buy another striker or not once Berbatov leaves. It also brings in that winning mentality and knowing that they have gone through that phase. People talk about next year being the go year for City, we have Tom Cleverly, Rafael, Chris Smalling, Danny Welbeck, David De Gea, Youngy and a few others that are getting a taste of hopefully another successful run in. While a couple have been here for last years title, and Rafael in 08/09, this is really the first title run that they've been a major factor.

That is almost the future spine of our team.

 

[finneh]

Assume what you like. All I'm saying it talking about four games, where Berbatov scored 3 goals and assisted one, isn't the greatest of evidence on why he shouldn't be playing.

Well the fact that our results have been much worse when he has started vs when he hasn't is either: a) a coincidence; or b) linked. The fact that you are arguing against the latter implies that you are arguing for the former.

That being the case I'd say the biggest evidence for the latter is that he hasn't started a game in 10.

When you use stats to back up your argument you need to do it better. The fact you deliberately chose his last four starts rather than his last five shows you weren't trying to portray Berbatov in a good light.

Where did you get the stats for those point returns?

The points returns are 2 wins, 2 losses and a draw in 5 starts (1.6 a game) vs the remaining 71 points we have gained in 28 games (2.54).

The reason I discounted the Wigan game where he played very well is due to the fact that he then started 3 of the next five games, so it is obvious that he did well in that game and noone would take that away from him. We are discussing why he hasn't started in the 10 games since Stoke, not how he got to starting the last 4 games before that.

 

[Rood]

Also the fact that Welbeck and Hernandez do have futures here, and Berbatov doesn't, should mean it surely doesn't matter about getting them playing time. We know he won't be here next season, so it's not like they are going to be massively hindered by his inclusion over them. I'd rather we acknowledge both of those players are the future, and use Berbatov as much as possible while we have him left, and while we need him.

That doesn't make sense - the whole point is for Welbeck and Hernandez to develop an understanding with Rooney and the rest of the first team, the more they play the more that is likely to happen.

 

[Hectic]

Well the fact that our results have been much worse when he has started vs when he hasn't is either: a) a coincidence; or b) linked. The fact that you are arguing against the latter implies that you are arguing for the former.

That being the case I'd say the biggest evidence for the latter is that he hasn't started a game in 10.

Well, answer me this.

How can using the last 4 games for a striker, who scored 3 goals and created one, be bad? That's complete nonsense. By that logic Rooney, a striker didn't score in the last game we lost and was taken off at 65 minutes, must be shit! Of course not.

As pointed out, you purposely ignored his fifth game, which would have had 5 games, 6 goals, 1 assist. Yet somehow you are still trying to use this as evidence of Berbatov being bad. The fact you are ignoring the actual argument you yourself put forward, tells me you don't know what you're talking about. Don't make this into something else, you used his last four games as evidence of it being 'straight forward' why we aren't playing him, yet his record in those matches is excellent.

 

[Hectic]

That doesn't make sense - the whole point is for Welbeck and Hernandez to develop an understanding with Rooney and the rest of the first team, the more they play the more that is likely to happen.

In the sense that there are 5 games left, and 5 games isn't really going to hinder their developing or understanding with Rooney on a massive scale at all. If that lack of playing together for a few matches means we stand a better chance of winning the match, that's where my vote goes.

 

[acnumber9]

Well the fact that our results have been much worse when he has started vs when he hasn't is either: a) a coincidence; or b) linked. The fact that you are arguing against the latter implies that you are arguing for the former.

That being the case I'd say the biggest evidence for the latter is that he hasn't started a game in 10.

Berbatov has started 5 league games this season. In 4 of those games Rooney hasn't played with him. How are Utd results normally when our best player doesn't play?

Why did you only list his last four starts rather than his last 5?

 

[Rood]

In the sense that there are 5 games left, and 5 games isn't really going to hinder their developing or understanding with Rooney on a massive scale at all.

Well I think that is a strange way of looking at it, my point is the more they play together, the better the understanding is going to be - do you disagree with that?

 

[Hectic]

Well I think that is a strange way of looking at it, my point is the more they play together, the better the understanding is going to be - do you disagree with that?

Of course not, I fully agree with that. However, my concern is that there are 5 games left, is the immediate concern about winning matches and securing this league title, or assuring the partnership between Rooney and Welbeck, and Rooney and Hernandez is maintained? Especially as that's essentially 2 or 3 matches for Welbeck or Hernandez, given we won't start all three.

I find it strange to assume you'd want the other option, given they have their entire futures to forge their partnerships, whereas we have 5 games to win the league.

 

[finneh]

Berbatov has started 5 league games this season. In 4 of those games Rooney hasn't played with him. How are Utd results normally when our best player doesn't play?

Why did you only list his last four starts rather than his last 5?

Well, answer me this.

How can using the last 4 games for a striker, who scored 3 goals and created one, be bad? That's complete nonsense. By that logic Rooney, a striker didn't score in the last game we lost and was taken off at 65 minutes, must be shit! Of course not.

As pointed out, you purposely ignored his fifth game, which would have had 5 games, 6 goals, 1 assist. Yet somehow you are still trying to use this as evidence of Berbatov being bad. The fact you are ignoring the actual argument you yourself put forward, tells me you don't know what you're talking about. Don't make this into something else, you used his last four games as evidence of it being 'straight forward' why we aren't playing him, yet his record in those matches is excellent.

The points returns are 2 wins, 2 losses and a draw in 5 starts (1.6 a game) vs the remaining 71 points we have gained in 28 games (2.54).

The reason I discounted the Wigan game where he played very well is due to the fact that he then started 3 of the next five games, so it is obvious that he did well in that game and noone would take that away from him. We are discussing why he hasn't started in the 10 games since Stoke, not how he got to starting the last 4 games before that.

In reference to Rooney not playing I think that is self explanatory: Berbatov and Rooney rarely play well together. Evidenced this season by the Newcastle hammering and also evidenced by how well Berbatov did play against Wigan (where Rooney was absent).

 

[Orton]

Wasnt Berbatovs fault that we let in some ridiculous goals in those games!

Yes it was! If it wasn't for Berbatov then we wouldn't have had a central midfield pairing of Rafael and Park, and Carrick and Jones at centre back! He only scored 2 against Blackburn, not enough really when you consider he got 5 against them last year in one game....

 

[acnumber9]

The points returns are 2 wins, 2 losses and a draw in 5 starts (1.6 a game) vs the remaining 71 points we have gained in 28 games (2.54).

The reason I discounted the Wigan game where he played very well is due to the fact that he then started 3 of the next five games, so it is obvious that he did well in that game and noone would take that away from him. We are discussing why he hasn't started in the 10 games since Stoke, not how he got to starting the last 4 games before that.

In reference to Rooney not playing I think that is self explanatory: Berbatov and Rooney rarely play well together.

The Rooney reference is not a question of why they're not playing together it is to see if the correlation in points you are drawing is more influenced by him not playing than Berbatov featuring.

The reason you omitted it was obvious and has nothing to do with that laughable excuse given above. If you're trying to paint an accurate picture it can only be done with all the facts.

 

[Rood]

Of course not, I fully agree with that. However, my concern is that there are 5 games left, is the immediate concern about winning matches and securing this league title, or assuring the partnership between Rooney and Welbeck, and Rooney and Hernandez is maintained? Especially as that's essentially 2 or 3 matches for Welbeck or Hernandez, given we won't start all three.

I find it strange to assume you'd want the other option, given they have their entire futures to forge their partnerships, whereas we have 5 games to win the league.

I dont see it as an either/or question - the priority is to win each game and I believe the best way to do that is to stick with the players who went on the recent winning streak. Unfortunately for him, that doesnt include Berba.

One of the major reasons that Berba has been sidelined is that Fergie doesnt think that Berba and Rooney can play together - that is why Berba's starts have mostly come when Rooney doesnt play.
If Fergie decides to give Rooney a rest either this weekend or next, then I wouldnt be suprised to see Berba come back into the picture.

 

[Member 60376]

Has anyone factored in Scholes' return while counting the points per game? The team's ppg has gone up surely after that, "with Berba ppg is x" and "without Berba it is y" is simplistic.

 

[Hectic]

The points returns are 2 wins, 2 losses and a draw in 5 starts (1.6 a game) vs the remaining 71 points we have gained in 28 games (2.54).

The reason I discounted the Wigan game where he played very well is due to the fact that he then started 3 of the next five games, so it is obvious that he did well in that game and noone would take that away from him. We are discussing why he hasn't started in the 10 games since Stoke, not how he got to starting the last 4 games before that.

In reference to Rooney not playing I think that is self explanatory: Berbatov and Rooney rarely play well together. Evidenced this season by the Newcastle hammering and also evidenced by how well Berbatov did play against Wigan (where Rooney was absent).

So you're attributing the loss of points, entirely on to Berbatov, and dismissing all other factors and comparing that with a load of other games, despite him scoring 3 goals and assisting one those four games.

Well, I've reached a point where to argue further would be futile.

 

[acnumber9]

Points total with Rooney is an average of 2.52. Without him it is 1.83. I'm sure this has no bearing on the stats Finneh provided about Berbatov.

 

[Hectic]

Of course not, those four games (which Berbatov actually performed in) are the only factors that make up a United win or loss. It doesn't matter if we are missing players, or if he's scoring or not, or the opposition, or anything else whatsoever.

Now had Berbatov played those last four games, and had zero end product or impact, you might have some kind of point finneh. Blaming a points total on a striker, who has scored and assisted in the games in question, is really weird. Especially when you then compare that points total to the rest of the season without him.

 

[finneh]

The Rooney reference is not a question of why they're not playing together it is to see if the correlation in points you are drawing is more influenced by him not playing than Berbatov featuring.

The reason you omitted it was obvious and has nothing to do with that laughable excuse given above. If you're trying to paint an accurate picture it can only be done with all the facts.

Laughable excuse... The discussion is why he hasn't played since the Stoke game, why would the Wigan game be a factor in this? After every good performance he has had this season he has then got at least another game, example:

Leeds - he then started vs Stoke and featured in the Champions League
Aldershot - featured vs Everton/Sunderland and started 2 games in the Champions League, before starting in the CC
Wigan - the 4 aforementioned games

In my mind it seems clear the reason that he isn't playing... After every good performance this season he has had a couple of mediocre-poor ones. I know that a lot of people are very protective of Berbatov and there is no-one more disappointed than me that he hasn't been the success we all hoped. But to question why he hasn't featured since Stoke is in my mind bizarre.

Going into the Wigan game we had won the last 8 games on the trot without him anywhere near the squad, only Captain Hindsight would then decide that game was perfect to bring him back.

Edit: And no I am in no way attributing any losses directly to Berbatov.

 

[Hectic]

You are changing the goalposts finneh. Your point wasn't about how we had won the last 8 games without Berbatov, so it was unneccesary to put him back in, in fact you didn't even mention any of that in the post which started this argument.

It's really quite simple. Your point, if you scroll up, was that looking at Berbatov's last four games - where we acquired just three points - it's clear why he isn't being used.

Now, coming back to that sole point again, it doesn't make sense when you look at his input in those four matches. You've made a point, and then when that's been criticized you've gone on to different arguments.

 

[acnumber9]

Laughable excuse... The discussion is why he hasn't played since the Stoke game, why would the Wigan game be a factor in this? After every good performance he has had this season he has then got at least another game, example:

Leeds - he then started vs Stoke and featured in the Champions League
Aldershot - featured vs Everton/Sunderland and started 2 games in the Champions League, before starting in the CC
Wigan - the 4 aforementioned games

In between that he also gave 2 mediocre at best performances against Basel and Crystal Palace.

In my mind it seems clear the reason that he isn't playing... After every good performance this season he has had a couple of mediocre-poor ones. I know that a lot of people are very protective of Berbatov and there is no-one more disappointed than me that he hasn't been the success we all hoped. But to question why he hasn't featured since Stoke is in my mind bizarre.

Going into the Wigan game we had won the last 8 games on the trot without him anywhere near the squad, only Captain Hindsight would then decide that game was perfect to bring him back.

Edit: And no I am in no way attributing any losses directly to Berbatov.

How is a game against Blackburn three days later any more of a factor?

Except you were using those stats as a reason he hasn't played. Are you going to continue to ignore the correlation between Rooney not playing and points gained?

The reason people want to see him involved us because at the moment Welbeck and Hernadez' performances have been poor and having Berbatov available to play at least keeps those in the team on their toes. Cutting him adrift at this stage seems highly counter productive. Berbatov scores in the Stoke so why no appearances since?

 

[Shimo]

Also, going into the Wigan game both Welbeck and Chicha have not been playing that great despite the results. So to not at least have the option of Berbatov in an important away game doesn't make sense. Maybe over confidence as we used the spot possibly for Pogba in thinking it is a game we should be able to give him another run out.

At this point we should have on our bench players that can make a difference. Worry about using spots for players to get a meaningless run out later.

 

[finneh]

You are changing the goalposts finneh. Your point wasn't about how we had won the last 8 games without Berbatov, so it was unneccesary to put him back in, in fact you didn't even mention any of that in the post which started this argument.

It's really quite simple. Your point, if you scroll up, was that looking at Berbatov's last four games - where we acquired just three points - it's clear why he isn't being used.

Now, coming back to that sole point again, it doesn't make sense when you look at his input in those four matches. You've made a point, and then when that's been criticized you've gone on to different arguments.

How is a game against Blackburn three days later any more of a factor?

Except you were using those stats as a reason he hasn't played. Are you going to continue to ignore the correlation between Rooney not playing and points gained?

The reason people want to see him involved us because at the moment Welbeck and Hernadez' performances have been poor and having Berbatov available to play at least keeps those in the team on their toes. Cutting him adrift at this stage seems highly counter productive. Berbatov scores in the Stoke so why no appearances since?

My post stated the reason he isn't starting or being involved in games. If he was playing like Messi in his last few games he'd be the first name on the team sheet. If he was playing very well, he'd still be involved. He hasn't been great and his last few games were poor, as a result it seems Fergie has given up on him having any more contribution to the squad.

The game against Blackburn (in my opinion) was the first game that he wasn't great, despite his goals. This was the first of a 4 game spell where I think he was mediocre-poor, despite goals/assists. This is why I picked those out, as a reason why Fergie has decided he isn't going to be involved at all.

Only a fool would, without any evidence at all, think Fergie is now cutting off his nose to spite his face. It seems Fergie, like me, believes that Welbeck/Hernandez even in average form offer more to the team as a whole and we have a greater chance at winning the league with them rather than Berbatov.

Unless something colossal has happened behind the scenes, and there is certainly no evidence of that.

 

[acnumber9]

My post stated the reason he isn't starting or being involved in games. If he was playing like Messi in his last few games he'd be the first name on the team sheet. If he was playing very well, he'd still be involved. He hasn't been great and his last few games were poor, as a result it seems Fergie has given up on him having any more contribution to the squad.

The game against Blackburn (in my opinion) was the first game that he wasn't great, despite his goals. This was the first of a 4 game spell where I think he was mediocre-poor, despite goals/assists. This is why I picked those out, as a reason why Fergie has decided he isn't going to be involved at all.

Only a fool would, without any evidence at all, think Fergie is now cutting off his nose to spite his face. It seems Fergie, like me, believes that Welbeck/Hernandez even in average form offer more to the team as a whole and we have a greater chance at winning the league with them rather than Berbatov.

Unless something colossal has happened behind the scenes, and there is certainly no evidence of that.

You keep changing your argument. It's clear you aren't willing to give a fair representation of the facts and as such any opinion you hold on Berbatov can be dismissed. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[finneh]

You keep changing your argument. It's clear you aren't willing to give a fair representation of the facts and as such any opinion you hold on Berbatov can be dismissed. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Incredible.

 

[acnumber9]

Incredible.

Thanks.