"I mean if it was considered okay 32 years ago (spoiler: it wasn't), then why is it such a problem now?"
Jesus wept.
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"Blackface" Discussion
- Thread starter Mister_Stubbs
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Jesus wept.
I would lean towards it probably being offensive to some folk yes. Probably best to avoid anything like that these days.
With something like this if someone uses blackface for fancy dress then it's totally understandable that people are offended given the history behind it. But in this day and age almost anything can offend someone, and some definitely take it too far. I watched a video from the BBC a few months back about digital blackface. Apparently it's been decided if you post GIF's of black people on social media/forums and you yourself are not black then you're probably a racist.
If that’s anything like cam cream it’s going to be a bastard to wash off. 
Serves him right.
Serves him right.
Tbf, if you think that at no point during the presumably lengthy amount of time it’d take you to smear boot polish makeup all over your body, you’d not at least once consider that it might not be such a great idea, especially in such a politically sensitive climate, then I doubt any explanation as to why it’s a bad thing would satisfy you.
It’s amazing to me that we’re still seriously discussing why blackface is inherently different from general fancy dress, or “That one Wayans Bros film from the 00s where they white up”... After years of wearing down the trolling claims that the N-word is no worse than Cracker or Honkey, the exact same argument refuses to die, just changes form.
It’s so fecking simple. Blackface, like the hook-nosed Jew trope (or the N-word) has a long and horrid history of malign influence and subjugation by parody that clearly isn’t there for “the Wayans dressing up as privilaged valley girls” or “Eddie Murphy pretending to be a stuffy businessman on SNL once”
Offense is as much about context as it is intent. If you absentmindedly told a crude “your mum” joke to a recently bereaved child, your lack of malicious intent doesnt erase their right to take offense, or the reasonable reason they did. And if you’re a normal, air breathing human being, you’d still feel bad, and likely apologise (or at best take care to not do it again) rather than stubbornly argue that you wouldn’t be upset by it, so they shouldn’t, and that your healthy happy family life has no bearing on that difference of opinion.
And for all the disingenuously argumentative Whattaboutism, there are still plenty of people blacking or browning up in today’s apparent “PC GONE MAD!!” World, far more so than minorities whitefacing. It’s not like it’s gone away. The difference these days is that it’s often used with the intention of ridiculing the person blacking up (like in say Tropic Thunder or Always Sunny) - where the joke is how stupid and offensive blacking up is to begin with, rather than how hilarious the stereotype. Its still fair game if you’re smart and thoughtful. Because context. And punching up. And obviousness.
As for this, it’s clearly so spectacularly misjudged in every conceivable way that it’s near impossible to be anything but an innocent faux pas. And I’m sure a few of his team mates will come out and defend him and that’ll be that. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be called out though. If only ‘cos letting it slide just gives license to others to excuse more malicious examples. Or to continue arguing that context doesn’t exist because they bought one of those Rasta hats with the dreds in on a beach once, and that’s basically the same. Also did you see that film White Chicks?
It’s amazing to me that we’re still seriously discussing why blackface is inherently different from general fancy dress, or “That one Wayans Bros film from the 00s where they white up”... After years of wearing down the trolling claims that the N-word is no worse than Cracker or Honkey, the exact same argument refuses to die, just changes form.
It’s so fecking simple. Blackface, like the hook-nosed Jew trope (or the N-word) has a long and horrid history of malign influence and subjugation by parody that clearly isn’t there for “the Wayans dressing up as privilaged valley girls” or “Eddie Murphy pretending to be a stuffy businessman on SNL once”
Offense is as much about context as it is intent. If you absentmindedly told a crude “your mum” joke to a recently bereaved child, your lack of malicious intent doesnt erase their right to take offense, or the reasonable reason they did. And if you’re a normal, air breathing human being, you’d still feel bad, and likely apologise (or at best take care to not do it again) rather than stubbornly argue that you wouldn’t be upset by it, so they shouldn’t, and that your healthy happy family life has no bearing on that difference of opinion.
And for all the disingenuously argumentative Whattaboutism, there are still plenty of people blacking or browning up in today’s apparent “PC GONE MAD!!” World, far more so than minorities whitefacing. It’s not like it’s gone away. The difference these days is that it’s often used with the intention of ridiculing the person blacking up (like in say Tropic Thunder or Always Sunny) - where the joke is how stupid and offensive blacking up is to begin with, rather than how hilarious the stereotype. Its still fair game if you’re smart and thoughtful. Because context. And punching up. And obviousness.
As for this, it’s clearly so spectacularly misjudged in every conceivable way that it’s near impossible to be anything but an innocent faux pas. And I’m sure a few of his team mates will come out and defend him and that’ll be that. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be called out though. If only ‘cos letting it slide just gives license to others to excuse more malicious examples. Or to continue arguing that context doesn’t exist because they bought one of those Rasta hats with the dreds in on a beach once, and that’s basically the same. Also did you see that film White Chicks?
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I never understand why when someone points out that a thing may be offensive, some posters choose to double down and start circular arguments about why they don't find said thing offensive. As is what they feel is how offense should be defined...
As personality traits go that one is so cnutish... What's wrong with having a bit of understanding/empathy, accepting the point, and moving on?
You know, like most people would....
As personality traits go that one is so cnutish... What's wrong with having a bit of understanding/empathy, accepting the point, and moving on?
You know, like most people would....
Petition to place this thread in the Classics forum so we can collectively cringe at the time a sizeable portion of the Caf decided to spend their Sunday evening trying to defend blackface for some reason.
Some folks are just so entrenched. The above personality trait sounds like Donald Trump and a number of his followers.
Calm down there! Its not like he pulled a Suarez. This is bad but isnt over the top bad.
It really gets hard to excuse ignorance especially in 2017 when theres so many tools available for research on a topic or what may or may not be offensive.
Humanity is just a comedy these days - we've disappeared up our own collective arsehole.
Quite a few studies have shown that folks who think this way are just really, really scared.
A white child below the age of say 10, painting their face black and then proceeding to dress up because they want to dress up as their idol in Lebron James or Floyd Mayweather for example shouldn’t be viewed as racist. As long as the intent is for said child to want to impersonate their idol, but the parents should then tell them that they shouldn’t be doing it as it will be viewed as offensive to people.
But for a grown man, even more so one of Griezmann’s social status and popularity to paint their face black to imitate a black person is scandalous and outrageous. He should know better, especially as he can dress up as anyone he wants. He may not have meant anything bad by it, which if that is the case then he needs to be educated as to why what he has done is wrong.
But for a grown man, even more so one of Griezmann’s social status and popularity to paint their face black to imitate a black person is scandalous and outrageous. He should know better, especially as he can dress up as anyone he wants. He may not have meant anything bad by it, which if that is the case then he needs to be educated as to why what he has done is wrong.
He should have also looked at the controversy section of the Wikipedia page for that film.
I draw my line in the sand right there. No explanation will ever convince me that me posting a gif of Terry Crews is racist. Ever.
Hold on now, what’s wrong with dressing up as a suicide bomber? So long as the outfit isn’t too convincing of course.
What he said is daft, whoever decided that I mean, not the guy posting.
Nothing is racist truly unless the intent is there. If you do something that is deemed racist but it is not intended to be malicious or you are too stupid to realise what you have done is wrong then that isn’t racist in itself. The act itself is truly wrong but not racist.
Racism is the intent to maliciously ridicule another race.
Not trying to tell you what racism is by the way Don.
I mean, aside from the NAACP publically denouncing it as racist, subsequent protests by black students, Spike Lee trying to lead a boycott, and it becoming a notoriously ridiculed touchstone for tin earned racism with numerous / think peices written about it since, no, no one made much of a fuss.
Are you absolutely sure that by “everyone” you don’t just mean your small social circle and the much less diverse and representative media you were tuned into at the time? I may be completely wrong of course, but I’m going to take a wild leap and assume you probably didn’t have an awful lot of in depth conversations with a wide range of culturally diverse groups about their thoughts on the poorly reviewed C Thomas Howell vehicle Soul Man in and around 1986?
Which is perfectly understandable. I doubt anyone did. The makers of the movie least of all.
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What and absolute pillock
It's probably just as bad as what Suarez did although obviously a lot less malicious. Either way I wasn't being serious in my statement.
In real life, he is indeed quite dim-witted. Typical blonde actually.
Seriously don't see anything majorly wrong on what he did? People really get upset over anything these days
I very much doubt Griezmann was trying to insult or offend anybody here. But he did and should apologise, as he did.
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Dont want him.
Poor performances this season, and really since the Euros. Keeps leading us on, and an utter idiot.
Love how anything thats thought as racist is lauded as 'PC/SJW garbage'. Griezmann is a big fan of hip hop and the NBA, he very well should understand the issue of blackface in american culture.
Its not like if this outfit didnt have him coloured in people couldnt tell that he was a harlem globetrotter? seriously?
Poor performances this season, and really since the Euros. Keeps leading us on, and an utter idiot.
Love how anything thats thought as racist is lauded as 'PC/SJW garbage'. Griezmann is a big fan of hip hop and the NBA, he very well should understand the issue of blackface in american culture.
Its not like if this outfit didnt have him coloured in people couldnt tell that he was a harlem globetrotter? seriously?
I get why Blackface is offensive. However, and this might shock you, a cultural peculiarity of the United States of America is not something that is universal. I'm sure you have done things that would be considered incredibly offensive by other cultures or in other countries, and your response most likely would be "get over it".
Blackface is offensive in the United States, and Canada due to geographic proximity, however, for the rest of the world, most doesn't even know what it is, let alone understand why it bothers people in the USA. A polite person once informed, would refrain from doing it, or accepting it, but that doesn't mean they will ever, or should ever be expected to be offended by it the way people in the USA are.
I don't see how Griezmann has led United on. He clearly has wanted out, the club and player were both interested in one another among other options.
As far as this faux pas, that's all it was. To make a big deal out of it is silly. There are legitimate racists out there, Antoine Griezmann is not one of them. How he didn't know better is a great question, but to spend time berating him for a poor choice is a waste of time since he's already taken his picture down and apologized for his mistake. Moving on.
As far as this faux pas, that's all it was. To make a big deal out of it is silly. There are legitimate racists out there, Antoine Griezmann is not one of them. How he didn't know better is a great question, but to spend time berating him for a poor choice is a waste of time since he's already taken his picture down and apologized for his mistake. Moving on.
In that situation I would not be mad at the kid but I would have questions for the parents.
This basically sums it up as well as anyone is going to.
I don't think Griezmann meant offense, I think he's actually a white guy who's into a fair amount of culture that originates with (or identifies really strongly with) black American culture.
I think if anything he probably thought this was gonna be like him doing the 'Hot-Line Bling' dance as his celebration and is just so naive (living in a success and wealth bubble) that he didn't realize there would even be a possibility of offense taken.
And to be fair to him, the worst blackface is when people just smear paint on their faces only - that is just so much more offensive to me. It looks so... insulting.
Whereas at least Griezmann actually gone 'full movie make up'.
ill assume youre white(or not black), now because of that you cant understand how it feels for a black man or woman (im not black but i was raised in a predominantly black neighborhood so most of my friends were black) to see this sort of shit. Its background and what it stands for is literally racism and racist stereotyping. Ive seen my mates groan at the TV just at the sight of a white person "impersonating" blacks with accents as a comedy sketch, even though they sound nothing like it. It reinforces negative stereotypes.
Or if youre irish and he, as a french man, went as a lephrechaun catholic alcoholic IRA terrorist with potatoes, you would be offended
Then the 7/10 are dumb.
The guy openly loves basketball and hiphop culture, culture that is dominated by people of color. He loves it. Those guys are his fecking boyhood heroes. But yea, no no no, he's a racist. He heils the führer the moment he gets inside his house.
What he did was misguided, but with the best of intentions.
I actually doubt very many Irish would be offended by that. They'd either laugh at you because its stupid, or laugh because you're(the person playing dressup) stupid. Also, where did your friends stand on Tropic Thunder and Robert Downie Jr?
Why are you talking for the rest of the world? You not being aware doesn't automatically mean it's uncommon for others to know what it is. Are people not educated in school on the history of racial discrimination where you live? I'm not sure where you're from, but blackface was prevalent in the UK as well (even longer than in the US), so this isn't just an American thing. Even just looking at this thread, the people that have never heard of it are clearly in the minority.
I said I understand why it is offensive. However, since I have lived my entire life in Canada and the USA, that is expected. What is not expected is that something that was predominantly something done in the United States, would be widely known about in the rest of the world. He's from France. I can't speak for his education. Being that he is a professional footballer, from a country that has had compared to the US much more open and accepted racial policies for centuries, I'm going to go with, no he did not receive a higher education on American history regarding this, and no, he probably has very little reason to have ever been exposed to it culturally. So, yea, he didn't know, Black Basketball players were his heroes growing up. He did something stupid, but with honest good intent.
I'm also going to have to say, I highly, highly doubt Blackface was as prevalent, or as malicious in the UK as it was in the USA. Trying to draw a comparison there is, well, yea. One country championed the abolishment of international slavery, and the other most certainly did not.
What was going through his head?
Why is this any different to Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder?
Some people just look for ways to be offended these days. I’m bloody sick of it.
Some people just look for ways to be offended these days. I’m bloody sick of it.
Political correctness gone mad?
Regarding Griezmann that kind of act sound like someone that lack bit of common sense, since it hasn't been thing since 1930s.
But if you want something properly racist google censored 11, Looney Tunes cartoons form 1930s and 1940s banned from syndication because of racist content including 1 Bugs Bunny cartoon.
Regarding Griezmann that kind of act sound like someone that lack bit of common sense, since it hasn't been thing since 1930s.
But if you want something properly racist google censored 11, Looney Tunes cartoons form 1930s and 1940s banned from syndication because of racist content including 1 Bugs Bunny cartoon.
This ridiculous argument has already been made and debunked by numerous people throughout this thread so there's really no need to keep trying to push this word vomit as fact. Blackface isn't exclusively a North American problem – it's been brought up and litigated on multiple occasions throughout multiple countries in Europe and more specifically in Madrid back in 2015.
That's what makes this whole episode (and your argument) so moronic – the guy has built his entire brand on ideas taken from Black American culture so to suggest he should be allowed to make bank on the back of it but not suffer any repercussions for disrespecting it (whether it was intentional or not) is as dumb as people who use weird, out of place Hitler references to sound edgy on football forums.
Completely baffles me that at no point during this whole process did he seem to think, "You know what...this isn't a good idea, is it?"
Actually i've lived in Belfast for a short while and any mention of potato/paddy/lephrechaun really pissed off my republican mates, the protestants not so much
i dont think many people minded tropic thunder because the character did get ridiculed a lot for it and they made sure you knew he was a parody of a parody
Your major mistake is thinking blackface is something uniquely American. Within the last couple of years, the Dutch have moved to end a tradition where people dressed up in blackface to portray Santa's helper, Zwarte Piet. In Madrid, the city Griezmann is currently based in, they decided to stop casting white people in blackface instead of black people in a post-Christmas tradition. Then there's Franco-Belgian comic books, where they used to portray black people as dim-witted, over-the-top caricatures, complete with pitch-black skin and big lips.
Caricaturing blacks has an equally long and shameful history in Europe as it does in America.
And I'm bloody sick of whataboutism. You'd think you'd read the thread and avoid embarrassing yourself, but nope. Read back a bit, and see why Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder (or the Wayans' in White Chicks for that matter) is in no way comparable.
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