For having an opinion? I'm stating my view of the situation. Just because you disagree with somebody does not mean they should be banned. If you read my posts carefully you'll see that nothing that I say is racist, quite the opposite IMO. Having a relaxed attitude towards racial differences is not racist.
"Blackface" Discussion
- Thread starter Mister_Stubbs
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
For having an opinion? I'm stating my view of the situation. Just because you disagree with somebody does not mean they should be banned. If you read my posts carefully you'll see that nothing that I say is racist, quite the opposite IMO. Having a relaxed attitude towards racial differences is not racist.
No, but if you shoot someone and they die, even accidentally, its a murder. If you have sex with someone and they say stop and you didnt hear them, its still rape.
Long and short, if you think someone is going to be offended unless youre a cnut you shouldnt do it. If you do and you offend someone then apologise, its called being civil.
You know it makes sense
I have never seen a black person in person growing up, neither do the vast, vast majority of my own countrymen, yet Vietnam, as do most Asian countries, are fecking racist towards people with darker skin colour.
The argument that 'we didn't have them here, so we couldnt be racist' cannot be any further from the truth.
For all the comments on here this one is actually pretty good and fair. Not saying I would ever go for such a costume. I just like to play devil's advocate! Too often the world is full of over sensitive pounces and it really just makes for a negative environment where someone's reputation is attacked at any given opportunity for a minor indiscretion.
This is why I'm on the anti PC brigade. Of course there needs to be some boundaries, but generally speaking those should be obvious not debatable.
Yep.
I was also that “black friend” at one point in time.
I let white people call me a nigga, allowed them to touch my hair as if I was an animal, held my tongue when they looked at me almost for “permission” when something racist was occurring and needed my approval.
What people don’t understand when they’re using that black friend defence is, your black friend could be under a lot of pressure to perform as though this doesn’t phase them because the other option could potentially alienate them. Especially if they don’t have other black friends to confide in.
Secondly, not all black people like other black people.
I know right? It’s as if we’re each human with thoughts and opinions, and not this one collective hive purely because we’re black.
Finally, if you really wanted to find out what black people thought of whatever issue it is, you should engage the discussion with multiple black people - that way you’ll get a much clearer representation.
Nobody does market research by asking 1 person.
Court jester playing devil's advocate with a hint of satire and exaggerated expressionism not quite doing it for you?
Hmm, maybe I went too far...!
“The world is full of over sensitive pounces” is it really?
We’re asking people to stop expressing as if black people and our features are a costume or a caricature that should be laughed that
How is that over sensitive?
Your point is very valid, some people piss me off by what they perceive is reasonable e.g.white people saying the n word. I do think the world needs to move on and either everyone uses it or in better reality everyone doesn't.
Saying it's OK one way and not the other is a form of racism, which even if it's a form of rebelling against abuse is still a device that segregates.
I guess it's like a more extreme version of the kneeling during national anthem. To me that is a reasonable point in time protest to gain voice. The n word no longer does this, but still causes division where some white guys want to fit in and feel like they can't when at a base level a common word used almost for inclusion between black guys can indirectly exclude a white guy.
But anyway I digress, I was going to say the black friend defence can sometimes just be to make the point, look I come from a good place, I'm clearly not racist and is often because any opinion from a white person seems surrounding race seems to be deemed racist if it goes against the status quo. The good is rarely seen in the point and the simple attack is instead made.
Goes back to my whole PC brigade. The PC movement has at times removed free opinion and voice and its wrong in many places even if well intentioned.
You don't realize it but without saying anything insulting you expose the entire problem. Think about those two questions:
What exactly is amusing about a black skin? How a black person should experience those laughters?
See this is where I disagree. In an inclusive environment if I want to dress as Barack Obama or you as Prince William, it will take a decent amount of makeup to make it happen and why not. In an inclusive environment there would be a certain level of impressiveness in a costume to completely change image.
There is no malice, no racism, no caricature. And I think that's where battle grounds should be drawn. Beyond this any attempt to generalise with negative connotations should be vilified, but pure impressionism is that really so bad?
To be fair maybe I'm wanting the world to be further on than it is, but that's part of my view where reducing racial tension from such exclusive incidents would be a positive step.
Because another way of looking at it is, an I not good enough for you to dress as a black man?
Again just playing devil's advocate and I wouldn't dream of wearing that outfit as it's just not my style, but a case for it to be acceptable for the greater good can only be a good thing.
White people dont get to call people niggas, there is no debate to be had about that.
If you feel left out, tough titty - now you know what discrimination on the very smallest scale feels like.
Your perfect world doesn’t have the history of where white people have ridiculed black people because of our skin, reduced our features to that of animals, and made out that we are ugly purely because of how we look, across centuries right?
Right, that’s why your argument falls flat, and your case for a perfect world isn’t going to happen.
The world isn’t perfect, history tells a story.
Don’t wear my skin like it’s a costume, it’s not.
You can be Obama without painting your skin.
And if you can’t, then your costume wasn’t good enough to begin with.
Why should I feel discriminated on any scale. I dont feel any need to say it, but the principle applies. Why do you personally have any right to say it? Were you a slave? I highly doubt it, so therefore by saying it you are just part of a problem, I. E. Supporting racial segregation . Just saying...!
Do you really want me to discuss why black people use the word nigga, why white people don’t get to use it, and the reasons for both?
I kept my response simple and easy because it’s 8am but your attempts to play devils advocate only have you come across very ignorant and uninformed on the matter.
But you do realise you are essentially saying racism from history is justification for separatist views. You realise that's just transferred racism.
No I’m saying learn from your past if you want to make a change for the future.
There are countless things that have formed out of racism, yet here we are trying to fix issues such as white people wanting to wear black face, and call us niggas - meanwhile institutionalised and systemic racism still affect black brown and other persons of colour on a daily basis.
Why don’t we work on dismantling those systems first, before we talk about you painting your skin and trying to call me a nigga?
Im fully aware of the reason, my challenge is how exactly does that relate to the current generation who in most cases will have no experience of slavery firsthand.
Don't get me wrong I know I'm out on a limb here, but I think anything that causes segregation has potential to exacerbate tension not relieve it. And I back any move for a fully inclusive world
Are you suggesting that a difference of POV based on history is racist? The reason a white person don't/can't use the word nigger is because it is the white people that transformed the word into a pejorative one, by themselves the words negre, negro and nigger are nothing. The reason why black people use the word between them is to lessen its power, it's done in an amusing way and that intent only works within the community. Also not all black people do it.
I am surprised that took 30 pages before someone to do the "why can't white people say the N word" discussion. That usually comes much sooner.
I think this has probably run its course, mods.
Because it has nothing to do with slavery.
The current generation of black people have no direct involvement in being slaves yet still have to live in a world that treats them differently because of their skin colour.
Studies show black people get stopped and searched up to 5x more than white people.
Jail sentences are up to 8x more than white people.
Up to 3x less likely to get a job if their name is a traditional black name
I could go on.
It seems your need for an inclusive world is only based around the material and unimportant things in life.
You seem to be under the impression that racism is over or not a common occurrence anymore.
When the world is a fairer place, we can discuss these topics.
But do you not feel that anything that goes against inclusion is just ammunition to fuel racism? A white guy impersonating a black guy is a great way to say hey we are one and only pushes racists out to the edge.
Are you going to answer my question?
Nah, it’s important for everyone to look at this discussion.
Wow
There’s always an underlying entitlement that black people need to be the ones to help fix and solve racism.
“Why can’t we call you a nigga?”
“Why can’t we paint our skin?”
But when we ask for the actual things that continue to perpetuate inequalities in society on a mass scale.
Systems that lead to longer prison sentences, less paying jobs, worse healthcare and education and housing etc.
Then suddenly, the conversation goes quiet.
Nobody wants to have that conversation because it’s much more difficult and involves actual change.
People don’t want to be confronted with the idea that actual racism is beyond the N word, and if it was truly to be fixed would result in a loss of certain predefined systemic privileges.
“Why can’t we call you a nigga?”
“Why can’t we paint our skin?”
But when we ask for the actual things that continue to perpetuate inequalities in society on a mass scale.
Systems that lead to longer prison sentences, less paying jobs, worse healthcare and education and housing etc.
Then suddenly, the conversation goes quiet.
Nobody wants to have that conversation because it’s much more difficult and involves actual change.
People don’t want to be confronted with the idea that actual racism is beyond the N word, and if it was truly to be fixed would result in a loss of certain predefined systemic privileges.
You are right about the classification of mixing races,assuming that you mean this
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistema_de_castas_colonial
Anyway I don't think that was so focused to slavery as you said or at least later(although the history books change a lot from one country to another).
You are also right about the racism,I am sure that scratching a bit we would find a really weird way of thinking,especially among older people.
However the self criticism is not our biggest virtue,and especially if it's coming from abroad.
Spain advanced a lot in LGBT issues thanks to an internal debate.Probably people Will be more sensitized in the future about this in a similar way.
In another post you ask if before painting we wonder about the fact of painting our skin.
In my case I painted myself twice in Carnival.
Being a teenager with my friends we painted to be an african tribe and more recently I darkened my face a little to be a north american Indian(very common custom).
I didn't think I was doing something wrong. I saw it as a parody, a carefree representation, which is what Carnival is based on. I have definitely worn disguises much more incorrect.
Oh I know. I didn't mean to sound as sanctimonious as I did in that post. It just shocked me that people weren't aware of it. I just figured it was one of those things that most people knew about.
nah, not really. The basis of equality IMO is we absolutely shed all these classification, which to be brutally honest is not looking feasible as differentiating on the basis of any criteria(sex, race, ethnic, language, religion, ideology, class, income and heck even which team we support) is deeply rooted in us.
Great post.
‘intention’ means feckal in this situation. It is your responsibility to be aware of historical context and connotations.
Personally, there’s not many things that annoy me more than an ignorant person who has no intention to understand cultural relevance (and structural discrimination) who’ll actively commit to something legitimately inflammatory and then fall back on that ignorance to frame it innocently.
feck off you dumb fecks
History doesn’t disappear cos you feel like you’re entitled to such a reality.
Personally, there’s not many things that annoy me more than an ignorant person who has no intention to understand cultural relevance (and structural discrimination) who’ll actively commit to something legitimately inflammatory and then fall back on that ignorance to frame it innocently.
feck off you dumb fecks
History doesn’t disappear cos you feel like you’re entitled to such a reality.
This is why it’s important to keep having these discussions.
The more people cry out “PC gone mad” and “everyone is too sensitive” gives more people reason to remain ignorant on these topics.
The time to feign ignorance when it comes to topics surrounding racism is hastiliy running out.
Yeah its probably not the thread for a proper discussion, but its also fascinating to consider how contemporary representations could have been influenced by prevailing attitudes towards race.
There's no way anyone knows historical context from every single culture on the planet. It's impossible to not be ignorant about something so you're always running the risk of offending someone out of ignorance.
Exactly
Lol you’re sensationalising my point and you know it. If you don’t know why the Civil Rights Act of 1964 had to come about, then dayum.
Why would someone in Portugal research and know why the civil rights act of 1964 came to the US?
Cos you don’t need to. As a Portuguese you’ve had your fair share of colonialism and slavery.