"Blackface" Discussion

Pagh Wraith said:
I don't understand it, sorry. Essentially what you're saying is that you can never use make-up to make yourself look more like another person if that person is of a different ethnicity. I assume you'd be okay with using bronzer to make myself look like Cristiano Ronaldo, though.
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No I think it would be bloody weird though. You bronzing yourself is not going to add anything to the costume, especially if you look nothing like Ronaldo. If you wear a Ronaldo jersey, fbdn Yep, I can probably guess you're going as Ronaldo.

Not to mention, again, the very different historial contexts between a white person going to a party dressed as another white person, albeit slight more tanned and going as a black person.

How can people not get this point? Even if you don't agree with it, how do you not get it?
 
Pagh Wraith said:
Why would you portray anything then? What kind of a question is this? Earlier in the thread someone said "So if he dresses like yao ming, you would expect him to color his skin yellow and slant his eyes?". My answer to that would be yes. If I wanted to go as Yao Ming, then (as a non-Chinese person) of course I would have to use make up to make me look more Chinese. How else am I supposed to give the impression that I'm Yao Ming. I really don't get the outrage.
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If I, as a white man, were to dress as Yao Ming, I'd get a Yao Ming jersey, maybe a mask at most, and if I was going all out, either some stilts or a friend who would form the bottom half of the outfit with me on his shoulders. At no point would I need to change the colour of my skin or shape of my eyes.

I wanted to go as Dwight Yorke to a fancy dress party when I was about 7. My dad bought me a Yorke shirt and gave me and Andy Cole microstar to carry round with me. I was a 7 year old child with white skin and floppy hair. People understood that I was Dwight Yorke.

There is no need to change the colour of your skin, or in the case of Yao Ming the shape of your eyes, when dressing up as someone.
 
vi1lain said:
Yeah I’m not big on arguing hypothetical situations because they’re pointless.
If your hypothetical Balkan is actually an adult and decides to don white face, then he’s ignorant yes.
And being ignorant to the effects of black face represents a privilege because you aren’t exposed to the offence it can cause.

Having privilege isn’t about being rich or poor, which I guess is why you decided to hypothesise about a poor white kid.
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I'm talking about him donning black face to dress up as (Brazilian) Ronaldo though, don't know where you keep getting white face from.

I chose a Balkan orphan as it's an example of someone who would have grown up white in the 90s in a war-torn country without parents or money, or the complete opposite of 'privilege and power', as well as likely little access to the internet or other sources of American historical knowledge. The geographic and societal environment this hypothetical kid grew up in are far more relevant to his lack of privilege than just his lack of money, and I don't get why you're being obtuse about that.

Griezmann's ignorance of the significance of blackface in US and UK cultural history is not a result of him being white nor of him being rich, it's a result of the geographic and cultural environment he grew up in, where this would never have even come up, let alone be taught to him. That's not a privilege anymore than all the millions of other things were aren't aware of or taught about thousands of other cultures worldwide.
 
He's deleted it now. Does anyone have it or care to explain what he did?
 
Ajaxsuarez said:
I'm talking about him donning black face to dress up as (Brazilian) Ronaldo though, don't know where you keep getting white face from.

I chose a Balkan orphan as it's an example of someone who would have grown up white in the 90s in a war-torn country without parents or money, or the complete opposite of 'privilege and power', as well as likely little access to the internet or other sources of American historical knowledge. The geographic and societal environment this hypothetical kid grew up in are far more relevant to his lack of privilege than just his lack of money, and I don't get why you're being obtuse about that.

Griezmann's ignorance of the significance of blackface in US and UK cultural history is not a result of him being white nor of him being rich, it's a result of the geographic and cultural environment he grew up in, where this would never have even come up, let alone be taught to him. That's not a privilege anymore than all the millions of other things were aren't aware of or taught about thousands of other cultures worldwide.
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There is a cultural significance to this in France as pointed out earlier in the fecking thread.
 
africanspur said:
No I think it would be bloody weird though. You bronzing yourself is not going to add anything to the costume, especially if you look nothing like Ronaldo. If you wear a Ronaldo jersey, fbdn Yep, I can probably guess you're going as Ronaldo.

Not to mention, again, the very different historial contexts between a white person going to a party dressed as another white person, albeit slight more tanned and going as a black person.

How can people not get this point? Even if you don't agree with it, how do you not get it?
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I know, it's quite alarming that people can't see or even recognise the ignorance shown.
 
I don't see any problem in what Griezmann did.Many times in the Magic kings parade someone has to paint the face in black to represent Baltasar,the black King(he's the favorite and most demanded King in the public draw) and I never heard comments about racism.
 
carvajal said:
I don't see any problem in what Griezmann did.Many times in the Magic kings parade someone has to paint the face in black to represent Baltasar,the black King(he's the favorite and most demanded King in the public draw) and I never heard comments about racism.
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They literally stopped doing it in madrid two years ago
 
POF said:
I apologise for the apparent stupidty of this question because I do struggle to understand. If you are not offended by it, how do you deem it offensive?

I'm not trying to be funny here. Just genuinely curious.
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Nope it's a perfectly reasonable question.

Firstly, I never said that I deem it offensive.

Secondly, as others have noted, it would be exhausting to bother yourself about every single thing that comes up in daily life.

After the Brexit vote, I had someone come up to me on the street in Brighton to tell me to 'go back where I came from'. A few weeks later, during working at St Thomas (where I'm a doctor), I had a patient ask me on a very matter of fact way, that I would be leaving soon wouldn't I? I asked him what he meant and he told me that was what he voted for.

I also don't get offended by that stuff. There simply is no point going around life crying about every little insult, every slight, every comment. Those comments are objectively offensive though would you not agree?
 
Lord SInister said:
Yes agree he should release a statement saying he is sorry if anyone found it offensive, but some people in this thread and social media are acting as if he has committed some crime and deserves to be called an idiot or bigot.
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Agree as well. I don't know the player well enough to weigh in on whether he's actually racist or not, who can? Most can agree he's a bit thick for doing what he did but I also thought the Spanish NT in Basketball were similarly thick when they took a bizarre photo ahead of the Beijing Olympics

spanishbasketballteam.jpg
 
africanspur said:
If I'm going to a party as batman or superman, the fact they're white does not make the character. I can go in a cape with my pants on top of my trousers with a big S on my shirt and it be very obvious that I'm going as superman. I don't need to whiten my face to make it obvious. Nor do you need to blacken your face to make it obvious you're going as a harlem globetrotter.
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The historical context argument is a valid one, but this one isn't. Why do all of Donald Trump impersonators paint their faces orange? After all, wouldn't the fact that they are wearing his ridiculous hair and imitating his voice and gestures be enough to convincingly portray him? If a black guy (for some reason) wanted to dress up as Tom Hanks, don't you think he should be painting his face white? If I wanted to dress up as Denzel Washington, shouldn't I least make the effort to paint my face darker?
 
Ajaxsuarez said:
I'm talking about him donning black face to dress up as (Brazilian) Ronaldo though, don't know where you keep getting white face from.

I chose a Balkan orphan as it's an example of someone who would have grown up white in the 90s in a war-torn country without parents or money, or the complete opposite of 'privilege and power', as well as likely little access to the internet or other sources of American historical knowledge. The geographic and societal environment this hypothetical kid grew up in are far more relevant to his lack of privilege than just his lack of money, and I don't get why you're being obtuse about that.

Griezmann's ignorance of the significance of blackface in US and UK cultural history is not a result of him being white nor of him being rich, it's a result of the geographic and cultural environment he grew up in, where this would never have even come up, let alone be taught to him. That's not a privilege anymore than all the millions of other things were aren't aware of or taught about thousands of other cultures worldwide.
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You’re under the impression that the term Privilege that the poster used was in context of being rich and having money.
It’s not.

I don’t have an issue with Griezmann blacking up because he’s rich, nor would I pardon him if he was poor.
Black face is something which has spanned cultures, countries and over a century in time.

Even if you somehow didn’t have a single clue about the fact that it’s offensive, doesn’t mean that blacking up isn’t offensive.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
The historical context argument is a valid one, but this one isn't. Why do all of Donald Trump impersonators paint their faces orange? After all, wouldn't the fact that they are wearing his ridiculous hair and imitating his voice and gestures be enough to convincingly portray him? If a black guy (for some reason) wanted to dress up as Tom Hanks, don't you think he should be painting his face white? If I wanted to dress up as Denzel Washington, shouldn't I least make the effort to paint my face darker?
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You do realize that they are ridiculing him.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
The historical context argument is a valid one, but this one isn't. Why do all of Donald Trump impersonators paint their faces orange? After all, wouldn't the fact that they are wearing his ridiculous hair and imitating his voice and gestures be enough to convincingly portray him? If a black guy (for some reason) wanted to dress up as Tom Hanks, don't you think he should be painting his face white? If I wanted to dress up as Denzel Washington, shouldn't I least make the effort to paint my face darker?
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Historical context is the reason for blackface being deemed offensive. Historical context (or lack thereof) is the reason for whiteface/going orange to portray the Cheeto Benito is not deemed offensive. It really is that simple, and I'm baffled that you seem to have a problem understanding this.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
The historical context argument is a valid one, but this one isn't. Why do all of Donald Trump impersonators paint their faces orange? After all, wouldn't the fact that they are wearing his ridiculous hair and imitating his voice and gestures be enough to convincingly portray him? If a black guy (for some reason) wanted to dress up as Tom Hanks, don't you think he should be painting his face white? If I wanted to dress up as Denzel Washington, shouldn't I least make the effort to paint my face darker?
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I didn't think your posts could get any worse or ignorant.

But his one is the winner. Wow.
 
SammyUnited_83 said:
Oh dear.

This was from an article 3 years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...te-politicians-blacking-up-three-kings-parade
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I already read It before but I still don't see why is racist. If the king is black then its fine,if the king is a white person painted It Will be fine too.
If I could be king I would love to be Baltasar and I would paint myself.
Basically to represent him better.
I think It would be more racist a public draw specifying that the black king has to be a black person,or viceversa.
 
Halftrack said:
He's doing a fine job of illustrating the problems with the current newbie system.
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To be fair, I hope his posts highlight just how ridiculous it is for people to actually defend the act of blacking up.
He’s arguing the same things, just far more extreme and ignorant.
 
SammyUnited_83 said:
There is a cultural significance to this in France as pointed out earlier in the fecking thread.
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genuinely skipped pages 6-13 or something so I'll go look for that. The reason I skipped those pages is that I'm just disputing the quote in that one comment more than anything else.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
The historical context argument is a valid one, but this one isn't. Why do all of Donald Trump impersonators paint their faces orange? After all, wouldn't the fact that they are wearing his ridiculous hair and imitating his voice and gestures be enough to convincingly portray him? If a black guy (for some reason) wanted to dress up as Tom Hanks, don't you think he should be painting his face white? If I wanted to dress up as Denzel Washington, shouldn't I least make the effort to paint my face darker?
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Trumps orange tinge is an entirely artificial one. It is a fake tan and quite clearly not his natural skin colour. This again is not equivalent to painting yourself as someone's natural skin colour.

I actually agree with you. It doesn't add to the act, it's quite obvious who you're impersonating si why bother adding that? Though again, a white person putting on orange fake tan is not the same as a white person putting on black face. It is not equivalent.

No I don't think they should be painting their faces white, nor should you paint yourself black. It is superfluous and just silly.
 
vi1lain said:
You’re under the impression that the term Privilege that the poster used was in context of being rich and having money.
It’s not.

I don’t have an issue with Griezmann blacking up because he’s rich, nor would I pardon him if he was poor.
Black face is something which has spanned cultures, countries and over a century in time.

Even if you somehow didn’t have a single clue about the fact that it’s offensive, doesn’t mean that blacking up isn’t offensive.
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wtf I've literally said how the money aspect is irrelevant to the point I'm making, yet that's what you for some reason seem to focus on? Or are you arguing that growing up an orphan in a war-torn country still has those other forms of privilege?

Black face isn't something that has spanned all cultures and countries ever at all, and those people from those countries and cultures not being aware of it isn't a sign of privilege.

And again just to reiterate, I never implied that privilege was linked to money, simply added the 'on the streets' part to make it clear there wasn't a single form of privilege that might be pointed to.
 
Lord SInister said:
Yes agree he should release a statement saying he is sorry if anyone found it offensive, but some people in this thread and social media are acting as if he has committed some crime and deserves to be called an idiot or bigot.
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I haven't read the entire thread so may well have missed it but so far, I haven't seen anyone here acting as if griezmann has committed a crime or deserves to be called a bigot?

I'm sure there are more than a few on social media but then again, that platform seems to attract people insistent on making hyperbolic out there statements to get attention.
 
Alex99 said:
They literally stopped doing it in madrid two years ago
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There are many cities still doing It.Madrid has a extreme left government that loves this stuff so politically correct.They also decided that the kings had to be queens.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
The historical context argument is a valid one, but this one isn't. Why do all of Donald Trump impersonators paint their faces orange? After all, wouldn't the fact that they are wearing his ridiculous hair and imitating his voice and gestures be enough to convincingly portray him? If a black guy (for some reason) wanted to dress up as Tom Hanks, don't you think he should be painting his face white? If I wanted to dress up as Denzel Washington, shouldn't I least make the effort to paint my face darker?
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Donald Trump doesn't have orange skin. People making themselves look orange when dressing as Donald Trump are doing so because he makes himself look orange with whatever fake tan/make-up he wears in many of his public appearances. He, himself, makes a conscious choice to look that way. The same is not true for people of colour.

If a black person wanted to dress as Tom Hanks then they would likely choose one of his many famous characters and dress as them. For example, if they were to do Castaway they could wear some worn clothes, a fake wig and beard that makes their hair look unkempt, and carry a ball with a face drawn on it. If they wanted to do Forrest Gump, a pale suit, a checked shirt and a box of chocolates would do the trick.

Likewise, if a white person wanted do dress as Denzel Washington (and I'd question why), they could go as his character from Flight and dress as a pilot, but carry a bottle of booze disguised in a brown paper bag.

In either scenario there is no need for anyone to change the colour of their skin. When you are dressing up as someone else you are doing so because of who they are and what they've done.

The Harlem Globetrotters were basketball players known for being very entertaining basketball players so a costume should focus on basketball.

Donald Trump is a celebrity-turned-politician that is known for, among other things, his dodgy hair, his strange mannerisms, and wearing whatever it is he wears on his face that makes him look orange.

Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington are actors, known for acting, so it would make sense to choose an iconic role and go from there.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
I don't understand it, sorry. Essentially what you're saying is that you can never use make-up to make yourself look more like another person if that person is of a different ethnicity. I assume you'd be okay with using bronzer to make myself look like Cristiano Ronaldo, though.
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You can do what you want, of course, but in the 21st century many people will call you out on it straight away. I'm surprised you're so unaware of this.
 
What's this about 'anglo-saxon' cultural norms as well?

As I said before, have France and Spain been transported into a racially equal utopia?

I've seen this kind of stuff before. From Arabs, Asians, south Americans. Oh we don't have that here, we're not racist. Complete rubbish.
 
Ajaxsuarez said:
wtf I've literally said how the money aspect is irrelevant to the point I'm making, yet that's what you for some reason seem to focus on? Or are you arguing that growing up an orphan in a war-torn country still has those other forms of privilege?

Black face isn't something that has spanned all cultures and countries ever at all, and those people from those countries and cultures not being aware of it isn't a sign of privilege.

And again just to reiterate, I never implied that privilege was linked to money, simply added the 'on the streets' part to make it clear there wasn't a single form of privilege that might be pointed to.
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This is why it’s pointless to argue about hypotheticals.
I didn’t focus on money, I simply said that irrespective of how much money you have - don’t wear black face.
It’s really that simple.

And yes it has spanned cultures countries and over a century, it’s all over the Americas, large parts of Europe, which directly at the start of the century large parts of the 3rd world were still under colonial rule so it even seeped into parts of Africa and Asia as well.
If you didn’t know or weren’t aware of this doesn’t take away from this fact either.

There’s nothing further to talk about here.
In 2017 there’s no reason why anyone can think of a justifiable reason to black up.
 
carvajal said:
There are many cities still doing It.Madrid has a extreme left government that loves this stuff so politically correct.They also decided that the kings had to be queens.
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You said no one cared, which is blatantly untrue. As for the last bit, this year's and next year's parade are not only called "Kings Parade" but everything about them heavily references kings.
 
Imagine that a black person wins the draw to be white(not so easy because there are not so much black population),and he paints his face ,using as well a white beard. Would It be racism?.
Or if in a party I pretend to be scandinavian,with a pale face and blond hair.
Treating these things in a different way is what should be considered racism
 
He is far from racist imo, just turned out to be a bit thick and without checking the background which he should have.

Well, if nothing, more people will/are aware of it after this.
 
vi1lain said:
This is why it’s pointless to argue about hypotheticals.
I didn’t focus on money, I simply said that irrespective of how much money you have - don’t wear black face.
It’s really that simple.

And yes it has spanned cultures countries and over a century, it’s all over the Americas, large parts of Europe, which directly at the start of the century large parts of the 3rd world were still under colonial rule so it even seeped into parts of Africa and Asia as well.
If you didn’t know or weren’t aware of this doesn’t take away from this fact either.

There’s nothing further to talk about here.
In 2017 there’s no reason why anyone can think of a justifiable reason to black up.
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Yes, Europe played a massive part in slave trade and colonialism, and I'm not denying that nor would I ever dream to.

Being aware of colonialism does not equal awareness of blackface being deemed racist. (and what would colonialism, African slave trade, or black face have to do with a kid in the Balkan anyway?)

I'm not arguing that black face is justifiable though, I've said repeatedly in my comments that I deem it at the least unnecessary, on the whole stupid, and at the most completely racist and offensive.

I'm arguing that ignorance of black face being offensive or ignorance of the racist connotations behind it historically in the US and UK are not emblematic of any sort privilege nor power outside of those countries' sphere of influence.
 
carvajal said:
Imagine that a black person wins the draw to be white(not so easy because there are not so much black population),and he paints his face ,using as well a white beard. Would It be racism?.
Or if in a party I pretend to be scandinavian,with a pale face and blond hair.
Treating these things in a different way is what should be considered racism
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Win the draw to be white? What?

In what party are you going dressed as a Scandinavian exactly? Perhaps someone else could go as a true African, with black face, tribal costume and spear too? Just to really make the costume even more authentic.

Do you genuinely think a Spaniard dressing up as a 'Scandinavian' and apparently painting his face white (for whatever reason) is the same as going as a random African and painting yourself black?
 
Alex99 said:
You said no one cared, which is blatantly untrue. As for the last bit, this year's and next year's parade are not only called "Kings Parade" but everything about them heavily references kings.
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I don't know anybody Who ever cared about that.The petition is not exactly massive.
What should do the small towns without inmigrants? Use a mask?
 
Lord SInister said:
Yes agree he should release a statement saying he is sorry if anyone found it offensive, but some people in this thread and social media are acting as if he has committed some crime and deserves to be called an idiot or bigot.
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I mean, he is definitely an idiot
 
Why do some people feel the need to be offended on other people's behalf? How many black people were upset by his actions?
If a black person wore fancy dress as say Tom Hanks and dressed in all the gear and whitened his face, I wouldn't think many white people would feel offended.
If some black people were genuinely offended by Griezmann, then it obviously wasn't a good move by him, but I do feel that some people overreact.
 
carvajal said:
Imagine that a black person wins the draw to be white(not so easy because there are not so much black population),and he paints his face ,using as well a white beard. Would It be racism?.
Or if in a party I pretend to be scandinavian,with a pale face and blond hair.
Treating these things in a different way is what should be considered racism
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Have you read anything in this thread?

FFS, go and educate yourself on the topic and then contribute to it.
 
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