"Blackface" Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
did you had a mohawk?
More importantly, can he play on the wing?
I'd say whatever speculative ignorance he had regarding blackface would still warrant giving him the tag idiot.
I am. Personally I'm not offended but I can understand that some are, we live in a sensitive world, it was bound to create a PR disaster for him.
Yeah, know what you mean- missed this yesterday. Shocked by the number of people defending him or pleading ignorance- not sure how people can be unaware that this is as at best inappropriate in this day and age.
The Lukaku chant thread should have given you a hint.
I didn't realise there was that many ignorant folks on here.
Are you suggesting that Griezmann has dressed up in that way to discriminate, denigrate and humiliate an entire race?
Not at all. I'm saying that, regardless of his intentions, what he did carried with it a long history of discrimination. Whether he was aware of that fact or not is beside the point, and as such it is wrong to start questioning how offended people may be by what he did, or as some are doing, trying to dictate an appropriate degree to which people are entitled to feel offended.
If I say that for me it's fine it's not for stubborness,to defend a national festival or anything like that.
I honestly never could have imagined that painting the face in black was racist,or a lack of respect.I simply treated the issue as something normal,meaning that we are all equal.Q vaya bien
I agree, it was incredibly absent minded from him and I don’t feel offended personally.
However I don’t feel we’re in a position to simply laugh these things off anymore.
It’s important to call a spade a spade, otherwise people will continue to feign ignorance as reason for doing dumb things.
Though I don't think it's THAT offensive and certainly not meant to be, it's certainly a very dumb move by Griezmann, especially in the current climate. Goes to show these guys are lucky they're good at kicking a ball.
I also agree with this, when it's serious, it needs to be mentioned. With this though, I feel like Griezmann exposed to the world his stupidity more than anything else. Players use social media to expand their brands, sell stuff and make themselves even more famous, therefore they should be really extra carefull about any content they display. Situations can change so quickly.
I mean, as an American, I cringe when bars here have Black and Tan, or Irish Carbombs on the drink menu. I wouldn't go as far as labeling ignorance as stupidity... But in this increasingly global world, there are fewer excuses for not knowing the basics.
These types of threads always are....
This thread is a car crash
People stating that non-black people shouldn't be offended (or condemning this) is a new one, showing that they have no concept of empathy or understanding.
I don't have to be Jewish to know that wearing a large nose as part of a fancy dress costume isn't going to go down well... Or to criticise the act.
People need to engage their fecking brains, it would also help if they read the thread and tried to understand why something like this may be problematic even if they initially can't see why.
I mean I would.... But I'm not a insensitive cnut.
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Excellent expression of your viewpoint. I 100% get it, and agree now. I hate when people even just mimic my accent in a 'how funny do you sound' kind of way.
I started off thinking why would you get offended, I completely get it now.
But again, being aware of colonialism doesn't mean being aware of the cultural significance of painting one's face in the US centuries later.
As someone whose ancestors are Eastern European Jews, I should expect some sort of understanding of what is and isn't alright when portraying or discussing Jewish people from say people in Vienna, where the Jewish population has been repeatedly oppressed, expelled and eventually decimated. But should the Viennese people expect a group of people in say China to be aware of, and adhere to those same standards of conduct surrounding Jewish people or history?
I realise that there's a difference in that many European countries are responsible for atrocities throughout Africa and for the slave trade that eventually lead to the racist portrayal of African-Americans in the 20th century using blackface, but at the same time in a world that didn't have the internet until 20 years ago, how can there be an expectation on the people in those European countries to somehow keep up with the cultural developments that the slave trade their countries participated in eventually led to? It's absurd to link ignorance of cultural developments on a complete other continent to privilege.
Yes there's a form of privilege that Griezmann has by being a white Frenchman compared to the masses of people affected by the colonialism of his country and its neighbours, but being ignorant of the significance of blackface in the US (and UK) is not in any way emblematic of that privilege. Though feeling that he has the right to continue painting his face black now that he has been made aware of its significance to millions of people, who might even look up to him, would probably be a whole different discussion, but I doubt he will consider doing this again.
How is it worrying that a majority of the global population might not be aware of the connotations of blackface in the US? If you've grown up being taught this from an early age, I can see that it might be hard to imagine not being aware of it, but can you imagine that if you hadn't been raised with that as an accepted truth, you can't just magically be aware of it nor place the same weight on it just because someone tells you to. Hopefully, Griezmann can learn now why it is a big deal to some people and can internalise some of that understanding in a wider sense, but I don't get why Griezmann and others in here not knowing about it, or not immediately understanding it, has to immediately be "worrying", "shocking", "stupid", or anything so dramatic and antagonistic
World gone mad today. We say that we live in democratic society in which we can say what we want. But it is on contrary. World became one touchy place where everybody is offended on something.
And i see lots of americans here angry because griezmann doesn't know their history about racism etc... why should he?
Do you know problems and history of france? Europe? Africa?
And i see lots of americans here angry because griezmann doesn't know their history about racism etc... why should he?
Do you know problems and history of france? Europe? Africa?
Fecking hell. I'm sorry you have to put up with this shit.
A kind of cultural absence of awareness is a fair defence, but only if we fail to consider the enduring worldwide popularity & influence of filmed American entertainment: numerous mocking stereotypes of non-white people have been seen by countless millions across all borders. Therefore, ignorance is a petty and often expedient excuse.
It's obviously a silly thing to do but that's all. The reaction is a bit too much. He should be free to dress up however he wants and people should be free to call it stupid, offensive, etc.
The problem is when the outcry reaches crazy levels where it turns into censorship and creates a hyper-sensitive climate. People should be free to make fools of themselves as long as it's not hurting anybody. I, for one, encourage it because it causes conversation and conversation almost always causes some sort of progress.
The problem is when the outcry reaches crazy levels where it turns into censorship and creates a hyper-sensitive climate. People should be free to make fools of themselves as long as it's not hurting anybody. I, for one, encourage it because it causes conversation and conversation almost always causes some sort of progress.
For valid reasons of social order and harmony, an atmosphere like the one you describe is undesirable.
Just to put this argument to bed.
What Americans are angry with AG or anyone else for not knowing their specific historical context? I see none...
There may a lot of people who don't know specific historical contexts or reasons why something maybe offensive, but once you are told, that excuse is done. If you then decide to keep arguing about it, or worse, disregard it in favour of your personal world view then you are being a cnut.
If you can't inherently feel that painting your skin, changing your features to mimic stereotypical features of another race, singing songs or making jokes about those features, features that a whole race has been persecuted/ridiculed for, may be problematic then you should probably self examine. Instead of arguing with any and everyone who doesn't see things the same way as you.
What a shambles of a thread...
How come?
Because it would inevitably lead to acts of violence.
How is it worrying that a majority of the global population might not be aware of the connotations of blackface in the US? If you've grown up being taught this from an early age said:
Freedom's a great thing, but there are limits. You say people should be free to make fools of themselves without hurting anybody, but in this case, obviously some people were offended, which by my definition means hurt.
For instance, you're not physically hurting someone by dressing up like Hitler, but surely you don't think that's an okay thing to do?
I agree that society is becoming a tad sensitive lately, but freedom has it's limits and with a good reason.
Very good post. @afrocentricity , this thread still has posters who make excellent points
I do think it's got nothing to do with football at all though. Should be movedI think fancy dress is all about getting in character. If that character is typically a different colour I can't see how it's a problem.
If a black guy wanted to be Prince William I think he'd struggle to have the same effect without while makeup.
Is that offensive, hell no!
I get there is a history, etc, where this has been misused. But guns have killed people, does that make everyone in America a murderer. Penises have caused rape, does that make every man a rapist.
I know these things are not the same, but the point holds. Just because someone used something in a way that was negative does not mean someone else using that something is also using it in a negative way.
I think being overly sensitive to such things only increases the divide. Griezmann has a known public great relationship with Pogba. It's obvious he is both not racist and if anything appreciates black culture. Why can't he share that appreciation in his own way.
I think it's actually racist to suggest otherwise.
If a black guy wanted to be Prince William I think he'd struggle to have the same effect without while makeup.
Is that offensive, hell no!
I get there is a history, etc, where this has been misused. But guns have killed people, does that make everyone in America a murderer. Penises have caused rape, does that make every man a rapist.
I know these things are not the same, but the point holds. Just because someone used something in a way that was negative does not mean someone else using that something is also using it in a negative way.
I think being overly sensitive to such things only increases the divide. Griezmann has a known public great relationship with Pogba. It's obvious he is both not racist and if anything appreciates black culture. Why can't he share that appreciation in his own way.
I think it's actually racist to suggest otherwise.
Agreed.... It's just tiresome filtering thru the bullshit to get to themVery good post. @afrocentricity , this thread still has posters who make excellent points
And on that post, I am out.
Oh. My. God.
I feel you, just read the post above yours. Kinell'Agreed.... It's just tiresome filtering thru the bullshit to get to them
Its always interesting when people say the "world is going mad" because of political correctness or consideration for other cultures' histories/ current reality. Why would you see this as a negative progression? Think about it this way (and i don't mean to bring in another hot topic but..) there are no doubt millions of men (and women) who think the current climate around sexual harassment is extreme or PC or whatever. They'd say its just simple fun or flirting or office culture. But how would you feel if you were a woman or knew women who's lives had been devastated by sexual harassment? Would you see a dirty public joke about rape or harassment as "simple fun". Would not your instinct or that of anyone who knew of your situation be to condemn that joke or at the very least be offended by it.
Its a new "balance of power" that is meant to check a well established and old one where one group was historical oppressed by another. Hence why people say there is no such thing as reverse racism. Prejudice goes both ways no doubt and many minorities have problematic views of lets say majority white people. BUT racism cant go both ways because by definition is the oppression and discrimination of one group by another due to differences in racial features. Unlike prejudice it's rooted in the context of history. and Blackface is one of the most infamous reminders of this History of Racism. Blackface has always been used in history to suggest an inferiority/ comedic nature of physical features of black people, even when it is cloaked in festivities like Black Pete in Holland or wherever. So when people who know about this history (either through learning or personal experience) see stuff like this they undoubtedly have the right to feel offended.
So Griezman may not be deliberately racist for blacking up, but blacking up is undoubtedly and historically a racist act. so is putting on yellowface and squinting your eyes or browning up and pretending to be south asian. Its ok if one apologizes as he did, because ignorance is only confirmed as stupidity once that ignorance is blindly defended.
You know a post is bad when you basically hope he's wumming, cause otherwise there's nothing redeeming about it.
In some wierd way I think I somewhat understand the point you're trying to make, but oh my, you've done a poor job wording it
My mouth was actually agape while reading it.
What’s frustrating is that his won’t even be the last post of its kind either.
Excellent post, thank you.