"Blackface" Discussion

[villain]

Except it's not. It's really that simple. You just saying that it is doesn't make it so unless you can show how his act was intended to discriminate or belittle, or make fun of the black race. You're smarter than this, but I know the way you engage in these conversations so a discussion between us is probably pointless.

He said that he was paying homage to the Harlem Globetrotters right?

At the height of the Harlem Globetroters fame, none of them had a big Afro - so who is he pretending to be?
He’s not even wearing a replica jersey, just one from a costume store presumably.
Secondly, not all of the Harlem Globetrotters were black - so he didn’t even need to paint his skin.

If he was emulating a specific Harlem Globetrotter then I would question why he isn’t wearing that specific persons jersey, and why he felt the need to wear a comical Afro, that’s before we discuss him blacking up.

In the end, what we have is him wearing a stereotypical costume that doesn’t depict any particular individual and only caricatures black peoples features.

It’s not accurate at all.

 

[carvajal]

He said that he was paying homage to the Harlem Globetrotters right?

At the height of the Harlem Globetroters fame, none of them had a big Afro - so who is he pretending to be?
He’s not even wearing a replica jersey, just one from a costume store presumably.
Secondly, not all of the Harlem Globetrotters were black - so he didn’t even need to paint his skin.

If he was emulating a specific Harlem Globetrotter then I would question why he isn’t wearing that specific persons jersey, and why he felt the need to wear a comical Afro, that’s before we discuss him blacking up.

In the end, what we have is him wearing a stereotypical costume that doesn’t depict any particular individual and only caricatures black peoples features.

It’s not accurate at all.

He simply bought a cheap costume. I think he didn´t analyze the consequences of colonialism and the stereotype

Spoiler

Some guys with the same

Spoiler

 

[villain]

He simply bought a cheap custom

Spoiler

Some guys with the same

Spoiler

Precisely.
I’m sure we can all recognise the fact that the first picture is for the Harlem globetrotters, and the guys skin is still as white as ever.
Blackface isn’t necessary.

The second picture is a little more dubious, it looks like some have attempted to blacken their skin.

 

[Silva]

Because it has the potential to offend people. Which isn't inherently racist. Offense is not limited to issues of racism, and you know that.

Not only is this is bizarre argument, but it also goes against your argument against calling people in blackface make up racist. Why should I refrain from calling them racist if the potential to offend is fine?

 

[Stookie]

Some people don't ignore history. Sorry if this offends you.

 

[SteveJ]

I wouldn't assume to set the rules of engagement, as that has a long & inglorious history. And not least when the central issue has been diverted into handily-placed side-alleys like 'Was it racist when Robot Downey Sr bombed Pearl Harbour?!?'

 

[afrocentricity]

Except it's not. It's really that simple. You just saying that it is doesn't make it so unless you can show how his act was intended to discriminate or belittle, or make fun of the black race. You're smarter than this, but I know the way you engage in these conversations so a discussion between us is probably pointless.

No Zarlak, your smarter than this. You're here fighting over a definition when it's been put to you and everybody else that minorities on the whole don't like being made to feel like their features are all that matters. You may not be able to relate but it is what it is.

I really don't understand the point of arguing about whether blacking up, slanting your eyes, wearing a huge nose, or playing up any other racial feature or stereotype fits the dictionary definition of racism when people have told you that they don't like it.

Just comes across as arguing for the sake of it. Would you do it? If not then why? If you would then....

If there's a proposal to change the dictionary definition are you going to fight it? Or are you going to accept it just because? Just use your head and your heart...

 

[Zarlak]

I’m not giving it more gravitas by calling it racist.
It has a history that is steeped in racism, that can’t be forgotten.

If it’s insensitive or inappropriate then why?
You can’t answer those questions without having a conversation about race and the representation of black people especially in media.

You have this fixated and binary definition of racism that you believe certain things must fulfil in order for it to be deemed racist.
Society doesn’t work like that, and all that does is draw the conversation away from race and only implies that racism can only be experienced when it’s defined in a dictionary.

I can't answer why he did it, nor would I try to begin to do so because I have no idea and I wouldn't do it myself. I agree with you that it's insensitive and inappropriate.

What Griezeman did is not the same as what has a history that is steeped in racism which is painting yourself black in order to mock the black race and to belittle them, present them as amusing etc and unless we draw that distinction then the whole conversation is pointless. It's a false equivalency that because A was something, that B is A and it's just not true. I can't stress enough that that doesn't mean I'm saying it's okay, because I believe that he did was wrong. I think it's obvious that if you do B, people will link it to A. But that doesn't actually make it A and that's an important distinction. It's therefore insensitive, inappropriate and to some people potentially offensive whether they're right to be offended or not is not really important, the potential for it to be the case makes it inappropriate and insensitive, but not racist unless his intention was to mock, belittle, discriminate, or in any negative way present black people in a poor light.

 

[Silva]

For the record, it seems to be mostly white people who find blackface acceptable.

 

[Zarlak]

Not only is this is bizarre argument, but it also goes against your argument against calling people in blackface make up racist. Why should I refrain from calling them racist if the potential to offend is fine?

It really doesn't go against anything. You don't have to refrain from calling them racist, but if you do then it's reasonable for somebody to have a discussion with you about whether it's true or not. I also didn't say the potential to offend is fine, I said that I'd refrain from doing it because it would offend, not that it was okay to do so.

 

[MadMike]

It's defo more a US thing. Is it legitimate to sing along to Straight Outta Compton? Can't really think of any other reason a white person might need to use the word, barring the obvious.

I was a bit a Biggie Smalls fan in my youth days in the 90s. Not sure how you can appreciate rap music without singing along. I've never been in the awkward position of having to karaoke rap music in front of people I don't know very well, so never had to face a moral dilemma there. Wouldn't sing out loud on the streets mind you

 

[carvajal]

Precisely.
I’m sure we can all recognise the fact that the first picture is for the Harlem globetrotters, and the guys skin is still as white as ever.
Blackface isn’t necessary.

The second picture is a little more dubious, it looks like some have attempted to blacken their skin.

and you see in the second some intention of mockery or contempt?

 

[fishfingers15]

Nope.

Painting your skin black is racist.
Regardless of what part of the world you are in, regardless of your perceived notion that your country didn’t partake in minstrel shows, therefore it’s acceptable for you - nope.
Blacking up is racist, and there’s no justification for it.

Now, if you weren’t aware of this at the time - like everyone is giving Griezmann the benefit of doubt - then nobody is going to call you a racist.

However, after being informed of the historical aspects of blackface, and it’s modern adaptations - if you choose to black up while aware of all of this, then you are complicit in racism yes.
You are willingly partaking in a racist act.

Personally, I did not know about the significance of blackfacing. My first introduction to this subject was right here on Caf because of a Dutch festival and the controversy around it. But I did read up on the history after that incident and how blackfacing was a big issue and a cultural appropriation and I could understand the significance behind it. I also think people like Greizmann, because of their popularity and celebrity status have a moral obligation to avoid this kind of mishap, especially with a global audience and following.

But for hypothetical argument here, if there is some other culture in the world who do paint their face black (I can't think of a single reason that they are doing it right now for fun or for tradition, but in case they are), wouldn't it be harsh for you to tell them that it is racist of them to do so because of the racial history associated with it in other parts of the world? I'm not playing devil's advocate just for the sake of it, but I'm also troubled by 'here, I know it's racist in my culture and if you do it then you are a complicit racist even though you don't mean it' stance.

You don't have to reply to hypothetical arguments if it does test your patience.

There might be an undiscovered tribe in the antarctic that blacks up for perfectly legitimate reasons, so blackface isn't racist, or something.

I think the question here is, if an undiscovered tribe in Antartic does this, would they be asked to stop doing it because it is offensive to others. Maybe I shouldn't give so much importance to hypothetical arguments anyway.

 

[afrocentricity]

I was a bit a Biggie Smalls fan in my youth days in the 90s. Not sure how you can appreciate rap music without singing along. I've never been in the awkward position of having to karaoke rap music in front of people I don't know very well, so never had to face a moral dilemma there. Wouldn't sing out loud in the streets mind you

Hey if I can rap along and omit certain words that I'm not fond of I'm sure anyone else can....

 

[Silva]

I think the question here is, if an undiscovered tribe in Antartic does this, would they be asked to stop doing it because it is offensive to others. Maybe I shouldn't give so much importance to hypothetical arguments anyway.

Obviously the answer is no. The point of that post was to highlight the absurdity of "blacking up as culture devoid of racism" posts.

 

[villain]

I can't answer why he did it, nor would I try to begin to do so because I have no idea and I wouldn't do it myself. I agree with you that it's insensitive and inappropriate.

What Griezeman did is not the same as what has a history that is steeped in racism which is painting yourself black in order to mock the black race and to belittle them, present them as amusing etc and unless we draw that distinction then the whole conversation is pointless. It's a false equivalency that because A was something, that B is A and it's just not true. I can't stress enough that that doesn't mean I'm saying it's okay, because I believe that he did was wrong. I think it's obvious that if you do B, people will link it to A. But that doesn't actually make it A and that's an important distinction. It's therefore insensitive, inappropriate and to some people potentially offensive whether they're right to be offended or not is not really important, the potential for it to be the case makes it inappropriate and insensitive, but not racist unless his intention was to mock, belittle, discriminate, or in any negative way present black people in a poor light.

What he did was black up.

Blacking up has a history steeped in racism.

What’s the difference here?
Because he was unaware?
That only means that he himself was ignorant and not racist - but the act itself is just that.

and you see in the second some intention of mockery or contempt?

Yes.
The costume is fine by itself because it serves it’s propose alerting people to know who you’re supposed to be.

They didn’t make the costume look better by attempting to paint their skin black (they used an actual black material too, no effort to actually emulate how black skin actually looks)

 

[entropy]

the use of this word has become an inflation, this thread shows.

This thread also shows that people can’t be arsed to google and pay more attention to the historic context of the arguments being made.

 

[Eckers99]

Another car crash of a thread, with roughly the same number of people who didn't see the problem with racial steroptyping of Lukaku now not only feigning ignorance about blackface but actively condoning it. Even when the facts are presented and plenty of people say they find it personally offensive.

Join us next week, as 40% of the Caf shrugs as Adam Lallana pulls his eyes into narrow slits and drunkenly bellows, " Me so velly sure mister Phirrip Coutinho wirr stay! You wan' chip and cuwwy?"

Comments include, "It's just typical Christmas Party banter. I guarantee that nobody is really offended by it. I should know, I'm white and from Kent." and "When did making a light-hearted tribute to the Chinese become an issue? It's intended to be affectionate."

*Sigh*

 

[villain]

Personally, I did not know about the significance of blackfacing. My first introduction to this subject was right here on Caf because of a Dutch festival and the controversy around it. But I did read up on the history after that incident and how blackfacing was a big issue and a cultural appropriation and I could understand the significance behind it. I also think people like Greizmann, because of their popularity and celebrity status have a moral obligation to avoid this kind of mishap, especially with a global audience and following.

But for hypothetical argument here, if there is some other culture in the world who do paint their face black (I can't think of a single reason that they are doing it right now for fun or for tradition, but in case they are), wouldn't it be harsh for you to tell them that it is racist of them to do so because of the racial history associated with it in other parts of the world? I'm not playing devil's advocate just for the sake of it, but I'm also troubled by 'here, I know it's racist in my culture and if you do it then you are a complicit racist even though you don't mean it' stance.

You don't have to reply to hypothetical arguments if it does test your patience.



I think the question here is, if an undiscovered tribe in Antartic does this, would they be asked to stop doing it because it is offensive to others. Maybe I shouldn't give so much importance to hypothetical arguments anyway.

I don’t debate hypothetical situations, and I don’t believe there is such culture.

If there is I’d like to understand the reasons behind it.
I know there are some cultures in the south Asian Pacific that partake in some questionable cultures, but they were forced upon them during colonialism

 

[Silva]

Barely anyone was accusing others of racism in the 1600s. There must conspiracy making white folk look racist these days.

 

[JPRouve]

it shouldn't hold more power than its sheer visibility. Not more but a color on the wall. Today white, tomorrow red or black.

That's only something you can say, if you are not part of a visible minority. Otherwise you will be judged and ridiculed based on your color at some points in your life, most of the time by the majority and I let you imagine who that is.

 

[Silva]

I think most people actually do pay attention to the historic context of blackfacing since almost everybody seems to silencely agree that blackfacing in the US (and UK?) is not socially acceptable. People here point out that different cultures exist and the world doesn't just consist of the US.

Please give us an example of a culture where blackface isn't racist. The places which don't have an issue with blackface make up are the places which don't wear blackface make up.

 

[entropy]

I think most people actually do pay attention to the historic context of blackfacing since almost everybody seems to silencely agree that blackfacing in the US (and UK?) is not socially acceptable. People here point out that different cultures exist and the world doesn't just consist of the US.

Doesn’t change the fact that it was a stupid and inherently racist thing to do. Just don’t be surprised when people call you out for it. It is just stupid to feign ignorance and go out of your way to defend it.

 

[carvajal]

Yes.
The costume is fine by itself because it serves it’s propose alerting people to know who you’re supposed to be.

They didn’t make the costume look better by attempting to paint their skin black (they used an actual black material too, no effort to actually emulate how black skin actually looks)

I don´t see anything bad to be honest. Don´t you think you might be over sensitive or nitpicking?

 

[Silva]

I don´t see anything bad to be honest. Don´t you think you might be over sensitive or nitpicking?

You're a racist.

 

[afrocentricity]

I think most people actually do pay attention to the historic context of blackfacing since almost everybody seems to silencely agree that blackfacing in the US (and UK?) is not socially acceptable. People here point out that different cultures exist and the world doesn't just consist of the US.

Edit:

you know what's positive at least? Almost everyone who defends himself from being racist shows that he accepts it as something despicable. That's progress, isn't it?

Why are you still insisting that its unique to the UK and US when posters have shown you and others like you that your own countries have similar histories and similar reasons as to why blacking up would be deemed offensive.

At this point it just seems disingenuous. I can accept that loads of you were unaware, I won't accept you pushing it as ok just because the minute portion of the population you surveyed led you to believe that's the case.

 

[JPRouve]

I don´t see anything bad to be honest. Don´t you think you might be over sensitive or nitpicking?

What is the point of the blacker skin in that picture?

 

[Silva]

I don't know, go to India or other asian countries and ask them if it's offensive in their respective country to paint themselves black? I don't think it's hard to believe that not every region of the world shares this understanding.

If you can't think of an example then please refrain from using a bullshit argument.

 

[JPRouve]

Yea, what's the majority? Whites? Hispanics? Or asian? Since we're talking globally here.

Who uses blackface?

 

[entropy]

I don´t see anything bad to be honest. Don´t you think you might be over sensitive or nitpicking?

Love it. Pleasure share more of your thoughts on how PoC might be nitpicking on how someone mocks their culture. Atleast he didn’t go full blackface, right?

 

[Kopral Jono]

Imagine ignoring multiple points purely because you want to continue painting your skin as if that makes you look black.

I can’t stand wilful ignorance that’s steeped in discrimination.

Bingo. I really don't understand the need for some to preserve an outdated and racist practice like painting oneself black.

I just read the whole thread again, on top of reading a lot on Twitter about this subject, and whilst it's been enlightening I learned that it's tricky to have a moderate take on things nowadays. Typically, on one hand you will have your anti-PC brigade who'd do anything to defend their dinosaur ways and on the other you will have your PC army taking great offence on pretty much anything. This makes it hard for someone like me, who believes that too much PC can be counterproductive whilst at the same time also believes that there are things we desperately need to leave behind, to be taken seriously.

Now this is completely unrelated but did you make a quick reference somewhere in this thread that you're originally from Ghana? I just want to say that Nkrumah is widely admired in my home country (Indonesia) and his name appears regularly in high school history textbooks back home along with Nehru and Tito. Unlikely, but mention his name if you come across an Indonesian person, he or she would invariably have a bit of knowledge about Ghana!

 

[carvajal]

What is the point of the blacker skin in that picture?

simulate something they are not for a while (although they did not work too much on makeup)

 

[MoneyMay]

Some people just love to be offended.

Hey I'd genuinely be interested in a well-thought out reply if it doesn't include the following: PC, White Chicks, Tropic Thunder, Griezmann's intent wasn't to offend, white face, and the good old "I have black mates who are fine with this" excuse. So far you've failed, and it seems - judging by your reply to my post - you're looking for a way out like Guillermo Nomasdeaux. I'm here all day, so please entertain me.

 

[carvajal]

Love it. Pleasure share more of your thoughts on how PoC might be nitpicking on how someone mocks their culture. Atleast he didn’t go full blackface, right?

what means PoC?
For me they are (in the case of the google photo) some guys in a party, who painted themselves to simulate something. I do not think that their intention was to make fun of something or that they had a racist intention.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Cultures can change drastically in the span of a century, can't they? I don't know, I think this discussion is completely pointless.

Edit:

Just to clarify, I won't ever accept your definition of racism, which is the real problem of this discussion here. Call me a racist all you want, I don't care, in my part of the world, I'm not a racist. If my view doesn't matter to you, yours doesn't matter to me as well. Which is fine.

It's actually quite enlightening. It does show how ignorant some people can be.

On a side note - when you were asked what cultures find blackface acceptable. You said "I don't know" before blaming it on Asians. Now you have just said it doesn't matter in your part of the world.

 

[Stookie]

Hey I'd genuinely be interested in a well-thought out reply if it doesn't include the following: PC, White Chicks, Tropic Thunder, Griezmann's intent wasn't to offend, white face, and the good old "I have black mates who are fine with this" excuse. So far you've failed, and it seems - judging by your reply to my post - you're looking for a way out like Guillermo Nomasdeaux. I'm here all day, so please entertain me.

Tell you what, I can see your itching for an argument. You stick to being offended and I won’t. Let’s leave it at that.

 

[villain]

Bingo. I really don't understand the need for some to preserve an outdated and racist practice like painting oneself black.

I just read the whole thread again, on top of reading a lot on Twitter about this subject, and whilst it's been enlightening I learned that it's tricky to have a moderate take on things nowadays. Typically, on one hand you will have your anti-PC brigade who'd do anything to defend their dinosaur ways and on the other you will have your PC army taking great offence on pretty much anything. This makes it hard for someone like me, who believes that too much PC can be counterproductive whilst at the same time also believes that there are things we desperately need to leave behind, to be taken seriously.

Now this is completely unrelated but did you make a quick reference somewhere in this thread that you're originally from Ghana? I just want to say that Nkrumah is widely admired in my home country (Indonesia) and his name appears regularly in high school history textbooks back home along with Nehru and Tito. Unlikely, but mention his name if you come across an Indonesian person, he or she would invariably have a bit of knowledge about Ghana!

Fantastic !
Nkrumah is one of my heroes, his policies allowed my dad to go to school and eventually medical school and the rest is history.
I wouldn’t be the person I am today or the position I’m in if it wasn’t indirectly because of his policies.

On that note folks, I’m going on a date with my boo, since this topic is going around in circles again.

 

[MadMike]

Hey if I can rap along and omit certain words that I'm not fond of I'm sure anyone else can....

You omit words when you're singing? Really? Who does that? Abhorrent practice. I'd rather not sing at all if the content is risqué and I'm in a public space.

 

[MadMike]

these racist asian bitches spreading awareness about female circumcision

I don't know why but Clitoraid sounds to me like a refreshing drink, like Gatorade.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Are you speaking Dutch, or talking to Belgian black people?

Calling a black person coloured is very dated.

But if you’re having trouble between the two cultures, you can call us by our names too.




That makes no sense.

White people created the culture of segregation based on race, built systems that continue to perpetuate discrimination based on race

Yet, you want the people who have suffered under both to fix this problem by allowing white people to paint their skin?

Being the bigger person/ group/ race can only work in favour.