Yes he wants out of the EU and a GE - they'll be out of the EU but he won't get his GE (even though he'd never win it)
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Yes he wants out of the EU and a GE - they'll be out of the EU but he won't get his GE (even though he'd never win it)
Probably not.
I know we discussed yesterday whether this vote was pointless or not, but given the actual wording of what has been put in front of MPs it absolutely is. The whole day is just (another) waste of time. Especially given amendments that have been pulled which might have actually been relevant.
Something that i only found out today is that we cant rescind Art.50 and then reinstate it later..
Its a good thing if we actually do rescind it, but this probably means it will never be an attractive option for many MPs.
Its a good thing if we actually do rescind it, but this probably means it will never be an attractive option for many MPs.
Parlaiments rather than governments fault for once. Both votes should have been today.
When will we get the indicative votes? Next Monday perhaps? 3 days before the deadline
It's unbelievable that basically after 3 years the UK are no further forward and there is really only one week to decide.
Yes, I'm suggesting May offers him a GE for votes for her deal. It is after all just the WA which is just a temporary arrangement. Corbyn, if he won the GE, would have carte blanc to put all of his ideas forward (whatever they are) in the future relationship negotiations. It could be tempting.
yeah we can, A50 just says that a member state can leave by giving the EU a written letter saying the state is leaving. it doesn't have much else to it
I think it's become apparent that May's play here is: vote against No deal >fail to get extension (never seek one) > return to Parliament with another vote on her deal closer to the deadline.
I think that's a great idea, but I'm not sure her own MPs would be too happy about it.
Do you have a link for that? My understanding, though I admit this could be wrong.....
We can rescind then reinstate. However, we could not do this as a ploy or tactic to somehow gain the upper hand. That is to say, if we had intended to soon reinstate it at the time we rescind it, the we would be deemed to be gaming the system. So if the current government were to withdraw a50, the some time down the road there were a material change(election or referendum, in essence), then we could reinstate a50 as a fresh attempt.
Gove said it in Parliament today, but I don't think it's worth taking particularly seriously.
I think if this offer was made Corbyn would be tempted by it for the reasons you say, its a win win for him. But May would never offer it because of who he is. The idea of a Corbyn-led, socialist government in the UK will fill her with genuine horror. It might be different if she was facing off against a Blairite, where she might say, OK the Tories will lose power but we can regroup and get our shit together and then come back stronger for it, its not like the world is going to come to an end because we arent in power. With Corbyn, she probably think the world actually will end if they get in. For a conviction politician on the right, a Corbyn government is an actual clear and present danger for the country and I have no doubt she and her wealthy friends are far more scared about that prospect than they are about a no deal Brexit.
(sorry about the slow response)
Honestly, no. I want us to remain, anything else is just plain stupid. Whichever way you try to cut it. Membership costs us a relatively small amount and brings many benefits. We have always been 'sovereign'.
My 2nd choice would be a full fat no deal brexit. Because I'm frankly sick of morons getting on t.v. and radio to say nothing more insightful than 'JUST LEAVE'. It's getting to the stage where I just want them to really get to grips with how much damage they are going to cause.
Bercow is probably the most effective opposition in the country right now.
To a large extent it’s May’s own fault though. She never made any real attempt to build a consensus around how to respond to a narrow 52:48 vote in which the precise meaning of “not remaining” was never spelled out. Combined with the unnecessary election of 2017, that meant she was at the mercy of people who’s instinct is to say no to everything (ERG, DUP). The ERG types have been causing headaches since the late 80s so it should not have been a surprise that people like Bill Cash would be utterly intransigent and unreasonable.
Well in that case, it's fairly safe to assume it to be, at the very least, not the whole story.
I doubt May would offer him a GE unless she is confident that he wouldn't win. The likelihood is that he'd lose anyway but would she take that risk. On the other hand it would kill off Corbyn for good if he lost.
The problem with all this is that both sides are still playing party politics and not one of them care about the interests of the country.
Yes I'd assume that she will encourage everyone to vote against 'no deal' tonight and also against the extension tomorrow.
She can then say that those two options have been ruled out, and give the commons a final vote, right on the deadline - a straight choice between her deal and unilateral revocation of A50.
Would he hilarious just to see the reactions of the Brexiteers. It would also have the potential to permanently destroy the Conservative Party... perhaps there might be some ancillary benefits to Brexit afterall.
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That would be a fascinating conclusion to this sorry affair. Inasmuch as this thing will ever be "concluded", you just know whatever happens the fallout from this will reverberate for years to come.
The thing is all of this could have played out so differently if people had accepted from the beginning the solution to the Irish problem would be a border in the Irish Sea. But "No PM wants to be remembered as the person who broke up the United Kingdom." In ensuring that doesnt happen, could she end up being the PM that destroyed the Tory Party? I suspect that is an accolade she would be even less enthusiastic about.
I suspect she would rather be remembered as the PM that took the UK out of the EU without a deal than either of those things.
The thing is all of this could have played out so differently if people had accepted from the beginning the solution to the Irish problem would be a border in the Irish Sea. But "No PM wants to be remembered as the person who broke up the United Kingdom." In ensuring that doesnt happen, could she end up being the PM that destroyed the Tory Party? I suspect that is an accolade she would be even less enthusiastic about.
I suspect she would rather be remembered as the PM that took the UK out of the EU without a deal than either of those things.
Well as I said in my post above they, along with the DUP have treated her like shit. She could expect it from the opposite benches but not fro her own side.I think that's a great idea, but I'm not sure her own MPs would be too happy about it.
And ironically a hard brexit could well ultimately lead to the softer brexit conservatives leaving and splitting the party... Plus ultimately real moves for referendums in Scotland and ni (independence / reunification)
So she may well get the hat trick
Very true. Its easy to guess her goals, but much harder to figure out which course of action is most likely to achieve them.
Damian Green, the Tory former first secretary of state, is speaking now. He has tabled what is known as the Malthouse compromise amendment.
Referring to the most controversial part of the amendment, paragraph 3, he acknowledges that Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, has said this proposal (a transition without the UK having to agree to the backstop, basically) is unacceptable. But he says if the government just did everything Barnier said, it would never get anywhere.
He urges MPs to back the amendment, saying it offers a way forward.
There are no words
Referring to the most controversial part of the amendment, paragraph 3, he acknowledges that Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, has said this proposal (a transition without the UK having to agree to the backstop, basically) is unacceptable. But he says if the government just did everything Barnier said, it would never get anywhere.
He urges MPs to back the amendment, saying it offers a way forward.
There are no words
No, parliamentary votes don't work like that, they either vote for a motion or against it, they don't get to choose between two. They could vote to withdraw A50 on it's own, but as both major parties are committed to Brexit that vote would fail.
The actual 'choice' will be between May's deal and hard Brexit, but only because Brexit is already passed in law, it's the 'do nothing' default situation if every other motion fails.
So the DUP will vote against taking No-Deal off the table, but they don’t want no deal, they think the UK should threaten the EU with No-Deal. Class
The definition of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
I saw it on the Guardian live blog. Will look for links
Gove said today in response to Ken Clarke that we couldnt, according to the ECJ
what are the odds May abstains in this vote? Pretty high I reckon
It’s surely just political positioning at this point, even the Hard Brexit Tories can’t be that deluded. In other words, when the sunlit uplands filled with frolicking unicorns fail to appear, they can point out that they approved this very reasonable deal and the nasty EU refused to budge.
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Anna Soubry is bringing it home right now.
I do. And thanks for your help. I'm genuinely grateful for any clarity that anyone can add.
Love when these MPs say there will be a vote against no deal and then we will make a deal that works for Britain .Meaningless words.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...f-article-50-extension?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Fecking traitors. This shit should be illegal as hell.
Fecking traitors. This shit should be illegal as hell.
You crazy man.
My first choice is Remain. My second choice is Remain. My third choice is Remain.
But - a 52% remain vote wouldn't solve this crisis. It wouldn't move us forward. There would be mini-riots on the streets, similar to the London ones (I really believe that). The papers won't accept it. People will talk about democracy being dead. It will go on forever.
We need to find a compromise that 90% of the population can live with. I suspect that is a "UK" version of the EFTA (not membership of the EFTA, but replicating it). Even partnering with the EU on many things and negotiating some trade deals with the EU together (where it is mutually beneficial to do so)
Andrew Bridgen is a horrible little scrote.
What does " the papers won't accept it" even mean.
Let the idiots riot and they'll end up in prison with the rest of the knuckle draggers
It's a problem. Right-wing euro-sceptic governments are on the rise, here in Italy Salvini is becoming far more prominent and popular than his coalition partner from 5 Star (also right-wing, but more inclusive).
However, if the extension to Article 50 is blocked by one of the other member states, I would hope that the only position would be to revoke it.
In what way?
Just laid out the facts about a no deal brexit, the damage it would cause and called out those that will vote for it as being hell bent on an agenda with little care for consequences.