Classist!
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It doesn't make it the right choice for the people of the UK but I think it does disprove the idea that the EU was somehow holding the UK back and by leaving, the UK is now open to the entire world given that the world was telling them to stay in. You said: "They seem to have been stymied by the way the EU negotiates and look ready to talk trade for mutual benefit with a willing equal. Rather than having to meet the demands of 28 counties many with very different ideas about what a good trade deal with them is." I'd consider their statements before the referendum to have proven that wrong and think that them wanting a deal now has nothing to do with disliking the EU. It's just them trying to make the best out of the situation. If they were so stymied by the EU, they'd have said so beforehand or at least have kept quieter about it.
Besides, they haven't neccessarily changed their minds. They just haven't decided to ignore the UK.
Still a long to go before we replace the 27 trade deals we already had in place with non-EU countries as part of the EU trade bloc.
The reason why the were pro remain is because they want as little disruption as possible. The Brexit vote wasn't good for any Western country in the short term and now they have to pool resources into dealing with the new reality, it is costing everyone a great deal of time and money. Their motivation wasn't that Britain will be doomed by Brexit it was simple self interest.
As for other countries being eager to sign trade deals with us: the narrative that they wouldn't was simply scaremongering by the Remain camp and other interested parties. Britain is now in a weak negotiating position so this is the time to strike on deals for other countries.
My own personal opinion is I can't see a way how we will be better off in the short to medium term out of the EU. I think there is a legitimate concern over workers rights and the Conservatives of the country turning the screw.
I don't think long term we are screwed necessarily, however. I believe the British people to be resourceful and innovative. The Union could break up with Scotland leaving but I am not convinced that would be bad for England on anything other than a symbolic level of perceived strength on the global stage, what does that really do for you and I anyway?
I don't think that anyone really thought Britain couldn't do deals with other countries or vice versa, just that it would take too long and wouldn't be as profitable as prexisting deals.
I agree with all that. I don't think a Leave or Remain vote would decide the future of the UK any more than other factors. I do think that this will hurt Britain slightly in the long term but it won't stop being a wealthy or powerful country.
feel you got a bit of topic here, but im not proud of alot of things my country has and is doing, and i have a degree in political history so i know lot of the shit we have done and ive marched and protest as such, but even if i hadn't i still think people have the right to worry or not worry about immigration based on their situation and the facts as they seem them, not what the country has done in the past and not what some rich arseholes are doing in our name now.
you talk about places not meeting immigrants, where exactly is this? my mum lives in a tiny village in yorkshire and that has a substantial eastern european community, and its places like that where the cost of immigration is most felt, becuase jobs are so scarce so more competition for these jobs and all the negatives that come with that massivly effects a community, rather the places like london where thier is a high demand for cheap labour
id like to move back up north too, not just rent but family and friends all up there but theirs no jobs lol
ive worked with many immigrants, ive dated a few(one who did bite me
) but its not about who they are people are worried point blank that thier isnt enough jobs in the country for them and having such high numbers of immigrants every year, not only increases the competition for job, but reduces the standard of contracts available.ive lived through situations working for companies where you start noticing the people coming in arnt english, and you get to know them you dicsuss their contracts, and you realise that the company has realized it can get away with offer worse contracts becuase thier are people out thier who will accept it.
sports direct is probably the classic example of this but companies all over the country have been taking advantage of the fact thier is a cheap labour coming into the county and they can make more money by using it.
what are British people ment to do in that situation except the competition and work for a worse contract?
i suppose you could say the government shud legislate agaisnt this, but thats a nightmare you raise the minimum wage, companies cut down staff and offer worse contracts increase automation, you ban zero hour contracts, companies offer stupid contracts like 3 hour rolling contratcs with over time.... thier is no simple answer.
bottom line comes down to if you have more workers then jobs your gonna have problems and people get scared and thats whats happening.
of course it more complicated then that you have other issues like increased automation reducing the amount of people it takes to run a society,the disappearing of traditional jobs, or at least the moving over seas where its cheaper to do them, the issue with people arnt helping the country by buying online, not supporting local business, demanding everything cheaper even if it costs them jobs in the long term, companies needing to use the cheap labour in order to survive.....
so it a confusing mess, but isn't true that the high immigration is solely a good thing it has many positives and negatives depending where you are in society, the country, the current state of the economy, your life, your own individual finances ........
lol i can't actually say im that familiar with the ins and outs of the nhs, i havn't really had a dr since i left uni i havn't needed one... *touches wood*
i take your point here, but i guess its generally like people starting a new job, you go to a new job you want to impress your generally keener then people who have been doing the job a while....... i guess it the same with immigration you go to a new country you need to make your way there so you put in maximum effort. though iv'e defiantly met exceptions to this.
you make it sound like meeting your hero and it terns out their just a floored person like everyone else, sorry mate but most places you go people are just people good bad and all the in between.
we all deserve better politicians, thats why i think it a shame whats happening to corbyn, don't get me wrong their is a lot of his views i don't agree with, and think at times he is too idealistic, but the guy seems like a genuine person, in politics to make a difference and to discuss his ideas, thats what all politicians should be like, weather thier right wing left wing, liberal.... they should all be in it to discuss their views and come to agreements whats best for the country, not treat it like a boys club a normal career away of getting power......
we all deserve better but how we get it? no idea!
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It all comes down to immigration, no point in pretending it was anything else, and many of those least affected by migration voted out, because they are racists and xenaphobes
who exactly are the people not affected by migration, you go round any town viligae in the country and you meet people from all over the world.
so ask who is gonna be more affectected towns up north desperate for jobs where even a small rize in the population has massive effects or a place like london with massive appitite for cheap labour.
again why poorer people from poorer areas voted out. i know everyone would love to right it off as poor people are thick and ignorant so voted out, but it isnt that straight forward.
Put yourself in the shoes millions of people in this country are living in, your somone desperate for a job, you see more and more people coming from diffrent countries compete for the same jobs as you, at the same time you see the contracts companies offer getting worse to the level its harder and harder to support yourself and your family, you saying you wouldn't be scared, you wouldn't take the opportunity to try and get immigration cut if it was offered to you?
but i do think it diffrent to pensioners, they don't talk about immigration like younger poorer people who voted, yes it comes up, but so does sovernty, how eurorpe has bloomed and this isn't what they signed up for........
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Not really though as those comments were based on the projected probable outcome of the UK remaining in the EU and what price leading the vote with negative comments about the EU if the UK eventually remained inside it, as it was strongly predicted that it would, up until 2:00 am of the day of the actual vote..
To be honest I think the Status Quo gets the benefit of the doubt until its challenged. No one within a system ever wants real change to the system there is always inertia and a risk to change. Once the change has happened that bias disappears.
Lets take an example in this debate in this thread.
I had said earlier that Germany and France would effectively decide the response from the EU post a Brexit vote. I was called a conspiracy theorist for suggesting this. That I had something against Germany or that I didn't understand how the EU works etc.
The first thing that happened post the unexpected Brexit vote was the French and Germans went into a huddle to decide a common approach which the founding members were invited to a meeting to back. Newer members are not happy about the way Germany and France have tried to handle it without them.
They currently hide the fault line behind triggering article 50 but what happens post the UK triggering that clause. The EU and all its member states have to decide how many jobs they want to lose in order to give the EU a win against the UK. If the EU progresses with a self serving agenda they play straight into the hands of anti EU sentiment by deliberately sacrificing jobs to punish the UK for leaving. What is the EU for if the only way it can survive is if it sacrifices portions of its own members industries because it has no other way to show the benefit the organisation?
Pre the vote it was all brotherly love and the EU would be as one in punishing the UK, post Brexit the longer the UK plays this out the more pressure from within the EU to settle amicably grows as the self interest of industries inside the EU comes forward.
Or you can believe that all countries believe everything they say when they say them and it is never changed by circumstances or political expedience.
I really don't see it like that. I definitely think politicians all over the world would lie but when they're backed up by the majority of economists, financial experts and business leaders, I'd imagine they're saying what they're saying with their own countries best interests at heart at the very least.
Wrt the internal pressure, the UK may actually break up in the time it takes to negotiate. None of the EU member states are planning on holding a referndum and most states show an increase in support for the EU. The longer the UK plays it out, the longer the uncertainty hurts the economy (both EU and UK but more so the UK as they are more affected by this than the EU).
We have a net gain of around 300000 people a year, or 0.5% a year, most of those will end up in London.
Northern towns were loosing population to bigger cities, migrants moving in actualy saved these towns, only a good thing.
Zero hour contracts could be banned or better regulated by the UK government, its not the EUs fault they exist
We were called the sick man of Europe in the 70s, we had to be bailed out by the IMF , thats what the pensioners want to return to?
Well for one thing I've realized how many people I know are actually gullible idiots who voted for the political equivalent of a bag of magic beans. Unfortunately they paid for it with the cow that was keeping us all in milk.
or maybe I hit a nerve. I still can't understand why a former colony and a small island like Malta is obliged to keep so many refugee seekers when it doesn't enjoy the benefits of war mongering done by Northern countries. Under the current rules all immigrants have to apply in their first port of call. That means that if 100,000 immigrants left Libya today and came to Malta we're obliged to keep them here and make sure they don't go North. It almost tragic because when the US, France, England and co bombed Libya (something both Italy and ourselves begged you not to do because we knew the region and knew the disaster you would leave if you do that) all we got was a thank you note for sheltering your expats and a good luck for the future. Once immigrants started flowing in, France threatened to close the borders with Italy and England made it bloody obvious that its not their concern. Surely they do acknowledge that whenever you make millions out of war (directly and indirectly) refugees will have to flee.
Luckily rules will soon change to a fairer situation were immigrants will be resettled according to one GDP and space. Guess who opt out of that?
If jobs are so scarce there then why they do not move elsewhere? Why not move to London or go study? London is so full of opportunities and the experience you get there you won't get it anywhere. Some jobs are also scarce and provide a quick route to promotions thats actually stupid not to go into them. I kick myself for not going into the health when I could.
I think that Britain's biggest plague is its generous handouts. It not only attract an immigrant minority who
That's something the EU has nothing to do with. Its up to the government to create jobs. The EU does help by giving up money for disadvantaged areas. I wonder what will happen now once the EU pulls out and these areas will be left to the Tory's mercy.
ive worked with many immigrants, ive dated a few(one who did bite me
ive lived through situations working for companies where you start noticing the people coming in arnt english, and you get to know them you dicsuss their contracts, and you realise that the company has realized it can get away with offer worse contracts becuase thier are people out thier who will accept it.
sports direct is probably the classic example of this but companies all over the country have been taking advantage of the fact thier is a cheap labour coming into the county and they can make more money by using it.
what are British people ment to do in that situation except the competition and work for a worse contract?
i suppose you could say the government shud legislate agaisnt this, but thats a nightmare you raise the minimum wage, companies cut down staff and offer worse contracts increase automation, you ban zero hour contracts, companies offer stupid contracts like 3 hour rolling contratcs with over time.... thier is no simple answer.
bottom line comes down to if you have more workers then jobs your gonna have problems and people get scared and thats whats happening.
of course it more complicated then that you have other issues like increased automation reducing the amount of people it takes to run a society,the disappearing of traditional jobs, or at least the moving over seas where its cheaper to do them, the issue with people arnt helping the country by buying online, not supporting local business, demanding everything cheaper even if it costs them jobs in the long term, companies needing to use the cheap labour in order to survive.....
so it a confusing mess, but isn't true that the high immigration is solely a good thing it has many positives and negatives depending where you are in society, the country, the current state of the economy, your life, your own individual finances ........
Once again that is up to the government to tackle. In Malta precarious work is being tackled by blacklisting such companies from ever applying for tenders with the government. Its not the solution but its a start. In Britain companies are allowed to issue vacancies in a foreign language which got me fuming (I wasn't interested in that job and I spoke that language). Its up to the government to stop that. TBF with the world getting globalized and the arrival of automation, low skilled workers were always going to get the shorter end of the stick. This thing occurs not only in the EU but elsewhere. Hence why its up to the government to help people in improving themselves and its up to the people to actually want that. Tiny Malta give all its people free tertiary education and they assist them further by giving them some pocket money. Surely Britain can do the same
You cant expect to have full unrestricted access to the single market and not accept these customers in your home. Its like saying we want your money and your rights but don't dare entering my shop you filthy thing. It doesn't work like that. There again, when you consider what happened with the asylum seekers then you cant blame countries like the UK and the USA to think that they can get with almost anything.
I think that the NHS should return to its roots, ie curing people. Its became more of a 5 star hotel service with people calling you sir/ms but ultimately its so bureaucratic that it take you ages to actually get cured. In Malta you brace yourself for an entire day in the waiting room. However at the end of the day you will meet a doctor, a consultant, get the CT scans and MRI you need and you return home with a cure.
That's the thing you are better then this. You won 2 world wars, you were among the first in Europe to open to globalization (ok that didn't ended very well but oh well) and embrace human rights. When everyone was shitting their pants about Hitler you were among the first to fight him and we were there surrounded by enemies (Italy axis, Libya axis, fecking all the Med sea was axis). You reform Europe not flee away from it
Interesting Japanese takeover of ARM Holdings in the works
http://stv.tv/news/uk/1360974-tech-giant-arm-holdings-subject-to-24bn-japanese-takeover/
They could see this as a good time to buy into the UK economy. Part of the take over is a commitment to doubling the 3000+ strong workforce of highly skilled tech talent.
http://stv.tv/news/uk/1360974-tech-giant-arm-holdings-subject-to-24bn-japanese-takeover/
They could see this as a good time to buy into the UK economy. Part of the take over is a commitment to doubling the 3000+ strong workforce of highly skilled tech talent.
Im not sure why people feel the need to point out the percentage, it doesnt make 300k any smaller. Thats a huge number whichever way you look at it. If you're going to make an argument then it has to be that those people benefit the country not to pretend thats its a miniscule increase.
Which northern towns have been saved by immigration? I assume you have a specific place in mind
Please don't post positive news in this thread, its strictly for doom mongering
Looks like it will go through, there was a question if the government would see it in the British interest but the commitment to doubling the workforce seems to have swung it.
There will be mixed feelings about a blue chip British firm being taken over by a Japanese company, however.
It does fly in face of the predicted 'tech talent drain' to Berlin, at least a little bit.
300000 isn't a big number, and the % just emphasises that
I couldn't point to a specific place, but these northern towns and cities have been poor economicaly. Do you not think that a new group of people working and spending in these places would see their local economies pick up?
£ down 28% against the ¥, great time to buy
Sturgeon: I can block UK exit from Europe
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...rope/ar-BBur419?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignoutmd
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...rope/ar-BBur419?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignoutmd
It's the pace of change in specific communities that seems to have swung it.
http://www.economist.com/news/brita...nly-remain-or-did-they-explaining-brexit-vote
If we drag this out long enough people will just get on with their lives and eventually forget that a Brexit was even supposed to take place.
"On Friday, Theresa May indicated that Brexit could be delayed as she said she would not start the formal process for leaving the EU until there is a "UK approach" backed by Scotland."
Can anyone imagine what that "UK approach" would look like?
Also, let's say there is another referendum and Scotland votes for independence, do they automatically remain a EU member?!
Indeed. It will be interesting to see how they will double the workforce considering the level of talent that they are after. The early speculation is that they will have to look to Japan and India primarily. I think on the whole it is good news for the UK, specifically regarding the caliber of talent they will be retaining and bringing in.
Those stats don't surprise me. I have seen the change in demographic on the ground in North Manchester and the rise of UKIP resulting from that. I think it is entirely possible that my ward could elect a UKIP MP before long.
i think this was debated at length at the last referendum. The answer varied depending on who you asked.
Important to remember that otherEU members eg Spain don't want breakaway regions encouraged.
you say 0.5 like its a small number, its a massive number when you think thats more then the population of york, nottingham, hull, brighton.... its a massive number.
how can it be only a good thing? why do you think so many people left these towns? because thier isnt enough work to support a large population, so you start adding people to it again you end up exactly back where you started with the added bonus that a lot of immigrants are prepared to take worse contracts.
again like i said in the last post:
completely agree it isn't the EU's fault, but it isnt as simple as banning it either.
say for tomorrow you become prime minister, and you want to ban zero hour contracts how do you go about it?
firstly you have lots of industries that need that kind of casual work the entertainment industry been the main one,
Say you tackle that obstacle, then you ban zero hour contracts, company's will just do things like offer 3 hour rolling contracts with over time, which would essentially be the same thing,
so where do you go from there? you can't make people work only the number of hours of your on the contract because then you will costing people over time which a lot of people survive on. I suppose you could say companies are legally obliged to offer employees contracts of the average hours they have done over a 6 month period, but then you will just get a massive rise in fix term contracts and companies employing more people to do less hours.
the bottom line comes when you have far more workers then jobs then companies are gonna abuse that and contracts are gonna be shite.
i never said they where right or that it was even an idea i agree with. but i do find it interesting as it not something i had thought about before the referendum, but ive heard exactly the same thing from servral retired people since, that their anoid that this isn't what they voted for.
and you look at the situation and it is fasinating to look at what the EU was when we voted to join and what it has become now their is no comparison, its like giving some one permission to build a house at the bottom of your garden and over time it becomes a skyscraper, maybe that brings your village wealth, but your always gonna get people who are gonna say hey you said you where only building a house, you can't just go ahead and do that!
personally i find that interesting, and like i said that isn't really a point of view i share, but i think its beneficial to understand different points of view, if everyone spent a bit more time trying to see things from some one else perspective instead of just assuming their right we probably wouldn't be in this mess.
There is talk of following the Norway option. But would that appease those hardcore euro sceptics.
This is what I don't get when people whine on about 'taking our country back'. It's like they have completely forgotten how shit our country was pre-EU. Obviously that recovery wasn't all down to EU membership, but the 70's certainly wasn't some fecking golden age.
Brexit worse than 2008 for finance chiefs, study finds
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f28ba63a-4c0d-11e6-8172-e39ecd3b86fc.html#axzz4EkxVsJBs
According to them, the biggest help would be to "provide a strong signal about its aims for negotiations with the EU". The whole thing seems to be about politics vs economics, at least from their POV.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f28ba63a-4c0d-11e6-8172-e39ecd3b86fc.html#axzz4EkxVsJBs
According to them, the biggest help would be to "provide a strong signal about its aims for negotiations with the EU". The whole thing seems to be about politics vs economics, at least from their POV.
Ok. But why the fear and the hatred? And in this case I do need to know numbers as going from 1 to 3 people is a 200% increase
Except they are not going to one city, they are spread out all over the country
Migrants won't go where there is no work, they earn and spend money in the local community which will benefit everyone, so it is only a good thing.
Just becausr its difficult doesn't mean the government can't legislate. They haven't acted as it helps the jobless statistics. Yes competition can increase the benefits of jobs offered, but thats an unrealistic prospect, if things get too expensive the jobs will be outsourced where they can. Your brexit leaders also want free trade deals with nations with far worse wages and working conditions than the UK, we can't compete unless we also cut ours
Nope, they just don't like foreigners and they blame them for their kids struggles even though its pensioners and the old who have most the Governments money spent on them
no you havn't hit a nerve at all, like i said in the last post before and a few post i find it despicable lots of the stuff our country has done and is doing! i dam well don't think we should be bombing lybia! its terrible that Malta has to pick up the tab for that, and yeah its wrong counties nearer the troubled area have to deal with the refugee problem when it isnt there fault there country happens to be near by!
i'd like to say that their should be an international law that if you bomb countries then you have to take in refugee's from that country, but that in fairness causes massive security problems, but there does need to be some kind of legal obligation to helping country's you have bombed, not only cleaning up the mess but supporting the innocent population while the war/conflict/bombing/act of disgusting terrorism goes on.
but then again you can't blame the people of the uk for whats happening, i havn't met anyone who thinks we should bomb lybia, i personally traveled down to london to go marches agaisnt the Iraq war, and millions of people across the county protested. again this is the government causing the problem not the people, you can't even argue we should vote for the other side as labour and conservative over the past century have been as bad as each other.
but over all i stand by my original statement, we get well of topic, and i still think people have the right to worry or not worry about legal immigration based on their situation and the facts as they seem them, not what the country has done in the past and not what some rich arseholes are doing in our name now.
people do move else where, me for example, where i grew up thier was no jobs and so i went away to study and after uni moved down south to live near brighton. where thier are more jobs.... not many but more then up north.
but not everyone can do this, nor would the country want them to if everyone struggling for work suddenly moved to london, london wouldn't be able to cope.
i don't think it nessicarly hand outs that the problem, the welfare state is theroy is a great thing, but like most things in practise it becoming tricky.
i worked for a housing association for a year or so a few years back, and thier are millions of people out thier who need help and deserve it, but making sure the right people get the help is a nightmare, you have problems with the system itself, people abusing the system, the workers in the system..... honestly its pretty heart breaking, im not asahmed to say that more then once i came of the phone crying when you hear what some people are going through.
plus you say generous hand outs, and yes i agree that at times it pays more not to work, but that has alot do with simply the appaling contracts that companys are offering.
over all i think the welfare state is an amazing thing, it helped my mum keep a roof above my head when my dad left and was working two jobs that still paid so little she could hardly feed us. yes its got floors but what system hasn't!
lol i wasnt saying the north having less jobs has anything to do with the EU, i just got of topic and was making conversation sorry.
but i agree with you on your point about the torys!
i agree with you the government can do more to help the population with regulations, but like i said in my last post it isnt that straight forward a government can only do so much, if you have a problem where you have more workers then jobs, then you have a problem.
im not sure increase agree with you analogy, where actually saying we ant to buy things off you and sell you things with out having a mark tarriffs on them because we live in different countries.
but that isn't the philosophy of the EU the philosophy is free movement and free trade and they don't allow one without the offer, and if we lose free trade it damages the UK economy.
for the record here i would like to point i didn't vote in the referendum, because neither side in anyway answered my worryes, remain point blankly ignored the fact high immigration is having a negative affect on many house holds in the uk, and leave had no ideas how to deal with the loss of free trade. so i didn't vote as both sides where just sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring problems they didn't have answers for.
i agree with you on alot of points, i think alot of people expect too much from the nhs.
but to be honest it gets on my nervous that so many people criticises it, we have free health care in this country thats 'F'ing incredible mostly i think people shut the feck up and celebrate that and stop abusing it and demanding it be perfect.
well if you look back at history, we where shitting our pants thats why Chamberlin waved the pointless piece of paper while hitler steamer rolled the czech republic.
as for two world wars..... the first world war was a disgrace, it was about small border disputes, sailing rights, and ancient treaties and it cost millions and millions of people their lifes and caused many issues that lead to the second world, so im not sure i count that as a glorious moment in our or any or Europes past!
but despite saything i still think we deserve better politicans, people in it to help people rather then helping themselves, but i havn't heard anyone anywhere say how that happens :S
The referendum create a huge amount of uncertainty and your politicans needs to fix that asap. You need decisive leadership that is able to communicate their (realistic) ideas about the process and their goals. Once that’s done, these confidence indexes will bounce back. That is why dragging it out, is probably not a good idea.
they are going all over the country every year, and after a while that starts to tell, and it is telling espically in the poorer areas first.
but thats not true cos migrants are going to areas where thier are very few jobs becuase its one of the few areas housing is available, but it causeing competion for jobs to rise and the standard of contracts to drop.
and it isnt a benifit to a community if it has more people then it can provide jobs for, again see my earlier point why do you think so many people left in the first place
im not saying the goverment couldn't do more, but you could legislate till the cows come home and if you still have more workers then jobs, the comapines will abuse it and offer worse contracts.
and for record thier not my brexit leaders as i didn't vote in the referndum because both sides just buried thier head in the sand and went la la la la la not listen when some one brought up a point they didnt have an answer to.
my own political beliefs are i quite like the EU, i like the fact people from all over the world live here, i mean it was aweome when the euros are on and you walk down the road and you see flags from loads of diffrent countries, my neiybours are Portuguese, was really annoying that we lost to iceland cos it would have been an awsome party if we had faced them.
so on philosophical level i like the idea of free movement, but having said that i recognise the fact that high immigration is causing problems for areas of society , i lived through it ive worked for companies who have deilbretly starting lowering the standard of contract becuase they know they can get immigrants to do it for cheaper.
so i unfortautly think thier needs to be some kind of cap on unskilled immigrants allowed to enter a country, and think the EU leaders need to get of thier high horse a little bit and see how philosophies are effecting areas of society and how companies are abusing the system and that it isnt only the UK government that needs to make legislation to stop the abuse.
i also agree with all the points people in the remain camp made about free trade and the cost to country if we lose that.
so i didnt vote because neither side wanted to budge on thier stance, and to me that isnt acceptable when where talking about an issue as big as this with so many diffrent layers
ok i give up, don't try it and see it from anyone elses point of view other then your own.
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I think it is perfectly reasonable for certain employees to worry about the increased competition caused by opening the labor market to other countries.
Still the function of free-trade and free movement (in a single market) is to grow the economy and reduce arbitrary boundaries. Overall free trade is growing the Pie and it creates additional wealth. That is a good thing. At the same time it is true, that some people don´t benefit from it and it is the job of the government to support these people.
The bigger picture is that the traditional working class will come under more pressure regardless of what governments do due to technological and cultural changes. And while that might be horrible for the people who are affected by it, overall that is a good thing. So instead of fighting a lost war with inefficient measures (e.g. protectionism or the ban of zero-hour contracts), the government should address the underlying structural causes.
Still the function of free-trade and free movement (in a single market) is to grow the economy and reduce arbitrary boundaries. Overall free trade is growing the Pie and it creates additional wealth. That is a good thing. At the same time it is true, that some people don´t benefit from it and it is the job of the government to support these people.
The bigger picture is that the traditional working class will come under more pressure regardless of what governments do due to technological and cultural changes. And while that might be horrible for the people who are affected by it, overall that is a good thing. So instead of fighting a lost war with inefficient measures (e.g. protectionism or the ban of zero-hour contracts), the government should address the underlying structural causes.
i think over all youve hit the nail on the head that the EU and share alot of my own views, over all the EU is growing the Ecconmy and creating wealth, but large areas arnt seeing that and are only seeing the negative sides.
i don't think thier is staright forward answer to the problems that immigration and automation are having on the working class, i honestly think its going to be the biggest debate of the century of how does a large population support itself when the number of people is takes to run a society is shrinking, but the debate needs to start happening more, and its a debate that remain campaign ignored during the refrendum, and it cost them the country and the EU.
it also has to be debate that can't just happen in the UK, yes our own government need to do more, so do the working class themselves, but brussels needs to start living up to the fact that free movement is causing problems for a lot of it citizens and we can't just throw them under the bus for the greater good.
In fairness, it wasn't really about fear, more about a war tired population who had no real interest in fighting a second one to look out for people living on the far side of Europe that we didn't really care about.
Or as he put it..
Chamberlain said:
Im not against immigration at all but i dont understand how someone can think 300k isnt a huge increase. Such claims strengthen the anti-immigration crowd because its clearly not true.
Im originally from the North and i couldnt tell you one city thats been proped up or boosted by immigration (health services will be as per everywhere). What happens is those with money and skills go to the big cities which usually means London and the low skilled end up in the poorer northern towns competing with lower skilled brits. Thats why there's such a divide on the issue.
Populations grow, so cities grow, demand and supply (they've always had the equation the wrong way round). We cope quite well
Thats just nonsense, most migrants are in the cities where hosuing costs the most
You can't abuse it if you set a minimum standard, which is where the EU is do important, no big business can afford to not trade in the EU. Nations together can set a level, nations competing race to the bottom
Old people would rather blame migrants than their own selfish greed, can't tax em, can't build houses near them and they will feck anyone who tries to control spending on pensions
It would go away if it were all bright and sunny in the EU. That is clearly not the case and wont be so in the forseeable future.
Even if this was put to the side for now, the fire would burn up at the first spark whether it be taking in more refugees or another bailout or the impending formation of the EU army, things that are certain to happen.